Respect for the Aged

[Aggie]

I reckon we should leave behavioral problems to psychologists, psychiatrists and or ...just allow the alternative to terrorize society (...since there's no willingness to do something about it).

Maybe it's just my perception, but I don't feel that society is terrorized by youth (at this time of my life).   

Actually, I feel that misbehaving youth (specifically in the context of gang violence) are a much greater threat to themselves than they are to the rest of society!  It's also my perception that in many cases the gang youth in my area have good family dynamics, but end up where they are due to larger social issues.  I have no evidence for this, though - it's entirely my conjecture.

[jjj]

Maybe it's just my perception, but I don't feel that society is terrorized by youth (at this time of my life).   

Well, for as long its not becoming a real problem or there's no problem we shouldn't worry about, albeit in this TV documentary things were quite problematic, to say the least.
Frankly, I miss such problems like a hole in the head... 

[Griffin NoName]

This fills me with horror. Isolation is used as: punishments in prisons; a method of breaking people down; torture; etc. Isolation of young people/children is known to cause psychological damage.

I think you paint yourself a 'too bleak pic' of psychological means to correct gone wrong behavior. Nothing of the sorts... Short time isolations (like an occasional smack) offers wrong doers merely the chance to analyze and readjust themselves to the demands.

There's a substantial difference between a few minutes spent by a child in their own bedroom in their own home for naughtiness or disobedience than in isolation in a stone circle in a correctional camp for failing. Failure is one of the most dispirting things; I don't believe punishment is even relevant or should be.

There are many kinds of wrong doing. They don't all warrant the same treatment. Encouragement and the right kind of attention tends to work better than repression and punishment in my experience.

Parenting classes have begun to appear to be effective over here.

[jjj]

Failure is one of the most dispiriting things; I don't believe punishment is even relevant or should be.

The laws of logic (or nature) punishes us for illogical actions and that's why I still believe nature is the best teacher. All we need to learn is to logically correct interpret its laws to benefit from nature's wisdom.

I agree, what works best is usually the logically more correct method/ solution to the problem. If kissing them 3 times a day works even better, I would prefer that! That's what progress is all about!

[Griffin NoName]

All we need to learn is to logically correct interpret its laws to benefit from nature's wisdom.

I'm going off at a slight tangent here. Nature includes many organisms which kill homo sapiens. Presumably nature's wisdom has this method of keeping populations and eco-systems in balance. Are we wrong then to prolong human life by using medicines?

[jjj]

Logic consists of pos & neg polarities. Nature offers you the choice. Feel free to pick the ones you prefer!
Another example: Nature offers us spiky, sharp, explosives objects, such as needles, knives, TNT etc. I's up to you to use them wisely to your benefit.

[ivor]

From what I understand you continually chose the TNT, jjj.  Why is that?

[jjj]

Nahh... only some 45 years ago in the army, where I was a munition ward.

[ivor]

You know from what I speak, do you not?

[Alpaca]

jjj, one of your arguments for the use of isolation as punishment is that nature punishes.

First, does nature necessarily use isolation as punishment?

Second, if nature already punishes, why should we?

[jjj]

You know from what I speak, do you not?

Not quite... I thought it was just on the 'punny site'... Tell me more.
=========

First, does nature necessarily use isolation as punishment?

I suppose illogical actions do indeed isolate us somewhat from reality and positive achievements. It makes us ask what went wrong?

Second, if nature already punishes, why should we?

In the case of a gross juvenile violation some temporary, strong measures are need to clearly show the consequences of illogical actions, because the juvenile does not realize the negative effect of his/ her illogical actions.
In other words, the rules have been previously explained and agreed upon and thus, infringements of the same is to punished. That's how our justice systems functions. You could also say: Well, we shouldn't punish the murderer, because he/ she already shows remorse and suffers guilt, shame and depression.
Thus, offering young people a taste of illogical action's consequences early on might in fact help them to avoid worse.
I gave it a shot, but (as  mentioned) it's rather the job of  psychologists/  psychiatrists to sort out these kind of juvenile behavior problems.

[Bruder Cuzzen]

*rumble*

Well, I believe in both, but I start with a default level of respect, and anyone has my basic human respect until they work at losing it.


Actually... I was thinking about what jjj had said about youth in Korea respecting their elders.  Unfortunately, the reverse is not usually true - a fair number of older men in particular take this respect as granted and unconditional, and expect younger people (women especially) to defer to their opinions without question.  The age difference can be relatively small for this to kick in - even a few years in some cases.  Having close friends outside of one's age cohort is quite uncommon, because of this.  This is a negative...  especially with the importance of technology these days.  Older folk now stand to benefit in knowledge from younger generations, as much as younger folk can benefit from their elders' wisdom.....

This is the case with old world Chinese as well . We HAD to show all manner of difference and respect to elders and that was all there was to it .Mother was a hypocrite however and dissed whoever she felt like , behind their backs.

I remember for a number of years a distant relation who was alcoholic ( eventually died alone in squalor )  No one even attempted to help him or say a word to him about it because he was older .

After losing or quiting yet another job ( he was a talented chef ) , he would be on our doorstep and drunk in a hurry .

We kids were aged 1 to 11 when this nonsense started . One of our family would have to give up their bed to him . And so often he would be in the same room as my  5yr.old sister and 7 yr. old brother snoring to wake the dead with the radio blasting away .

What the fornicate was in my parents heads i could not fathom , we learned not to talk about things , we learned our mother was a fool ( harsh , pitiful and I am ashamed of myself  .)
We all had a difficult time in our childhoods , being Oriental with Vietnam raging and two other wars still fresh in peoples minds made most days torture .
Often the thought of home and maybe television when dad could afford one was the highlight of many a day . Otherwise it was out with the neighbourhood kids we considered friends , some these friends kept up the racist crap until their late teens .


I'm sorry , I forgot what I was talking about......yes.. respect , I don't believe it should be automatically given ... kindness , charity , civility.. yes  , I'm all for that .

[Griffin NoName]

First, does nature necessarily use isolation as punishment?

I suppose illogical actions do indeed isolate us somewhat from reality and positive achievements. It makes us ask what went wrong?

Some animals have the top male and when he loses a fight to the next in line, the top male wanders off alone to end his days. What went wrong? He got old. Not much currency in him suffering isolation in order to ask what went wrong though?? He'd be better off in a nice home for ancient top deposed males surely? I don't quite get this nature stuff. Maybe I keep missing the point?

[jjj]

In short... there are basically two types of oldies:

1) the wise oldies... and

2) the old oldies!

Some animals have the top male and when he loses a fight to the next in line, the top male wanders off alone to end his days.

True, animals have their own evolution path etc. and that's why we ...cook wonderful meals out of them!   

[Griffin NoName]

I guess there's a problem in England. We tend to treat our animals better than our ill and elderly humans. Like helping them out of their terminal pain, rather than leaving them to learn the lessons of agonising isolation. Perhaps we need to publish a few new cookery books.