Respect for the Aged

[Alpaca]

1. When is a person no longer a "young child?"

Since growing up and personal development is a continues process, there are no clear cuts/ barriers. With increasing child's age and maturity both parties (child & parents) have to adjust their accordingly. The object is to instill practice in reasoning.

2. Are you not assuming that, if the parents are to be obeyed because they are right, they actually have to always be right?

Not necessarily. Some parents parents are to young or inexperienced to offer proper guidance to their offspring and teenager are going to notice it. Even wise parents aren't infallible, yet desperately trying to do their best to advice and protect their kids.

Okay. Given that, wouldn't you agree that sometimes kids can be correct in disobeying their parents, because, while still technically kids, they have already developed to the extent that they can accurately assess that their parents may be wrong about something, and at such a time the best thing would be to disobey?

[Bruder Cuzzen]

... sometimes kids can be correct in disobeying their parents, because, while still technically kids, they have already developed to the extent that they can accurately assess that their parents may be wrong about something, and at such a time the best thing would be to disobey?

OI ! In my family self preservation made disobedience mandatory ( ma wasn't bright , was never much light up there *sigh* , a wonder we all made it through , and thank God for antibiotics !

[Griffin NoName]

Only this week I saw (here in Australia) a documentary of such a camp in USA, where difficult youngsters are rehabilitated. Both, the kids and parents were very happy with the outcome. It a farm, where the kids learn to interact and carry out responsible chores. The one's failing to obey are send to a stone circle, where they have to stay isolated for some time etc. After some time they meet their parents and speak out etc. Quite an interesting, commendable concept.

This fills me with horror. Isolation is used as: punishments in prisons; a method of breaking people down; torture; etc. Isolation of young people/children is known to cause psychological damage. Isolation of babies and toddlers can cause a total lack of development of language. Isolation in adulthood is one of the most feared of social situations, and with good reason.

Decent family therapy would enable chidlren to speak out without this abusive regime. Abuse can never be justified.

The parents may well be happy. Perhaps they get back brainwashed kids who are easier to control. Perhaps the kids are so damaged they will say they are happy with anything. No doubt with nifty presentation of statistics this "experiment" can be "justified". I still call it abuse.

I am sorry, jjj, I am finding your views increasingly worrying. Please don't take that as rejection. Here we try to look at our own attitudes and ideas and discuss them. If we find we have opinions that differ we like to explore why. So in this case I would want to know why your view is to apply an abusive regime (which seems to be a concensus view so far as the camps you favour).

Yes, I know what you mean, but  no... I didn't have concentration camps in mind?   

Is that a little Freudian slip there, the question mark I mean?

Don't get me started on Freud, MB  

[Alpaca]

I recall such a camp here in Florida. It's actually part of a series of "Florida Sheriff's Youth Ranches." Last time it was in the news was because a kid was beaten to death by the staff there.

[Bruder Cuzzen]

The mention of "special camps" sends shivers up many a spine...

Yes, I know what you mean, but  no... I didn't have concentration camps in mind?   
Only this week I saw (here in Australia) a documentary of such a camp in USA, where difficult youngsters are rehabilitated. Both, the kids and parents were very happy with the outcome. It a farm, where the kids learn to interact and carry out responsible chores. The one's failing to obey are send to a stone circle, where they have to stay isolated for some time etc. After some time they meet their parents and speak out etc. Quite an interesting, commendable concept.

Was it a Dr. Phil Mcgraw program by any chance ? I love his show and i imagine he would be affiliated with some sort of youth / difficult children program . I am interested in seeing it .


fixed the quote box for you - Aggie

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

AFAIK the only programs that have proven real success with 'troubled children' tend to be quite labor intensive (and I am talking staff here) expensive and hard to man. It basically requires total commitment (as parents should) from the staff, small numbers and a very specific profile (loving, caring, committed to the children) on those taking care of the children.

A camp suggest that such nuanced environment can be successfully applied for large number of 'inmates' which has proven wrong every time. In fact when the state is forced to take custody of children the movement has moved toward foster parents rather than camps because even a half broken family is better than a camp any day.

I admit that the idea of parenting licensing sounds attractive in principle but so far there seems to be no way to implement something like that without having many negative overtones in many aspects.

[ivor]

Don't get me started on Freud, MB 

Don't get me wrong, I think Freud was a loon.  I just wanted to differentiate from just a plain "slip" which could be women's undergarments. 

This discussion of "Respect for Elders", "Family Values" and "Camps" to drive the square pegs into the round holes is freakin' me out.  My Dad is a drunk, my Mom is a nut, my brother is retarded.  Where do I fit in the Galton Society?  "To the Camp MB!"

I'm designed by my genes, but I am not defined by them.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Amen!

[jjj]

Is that a little Freudian slip there, the question mark I mean?

No, as mentioned, I'm totally illiterate about works of philosophers from the past. I merely rely on personally gained insight.

...while still technically kids, they have already developed to the

extent that they can accurately assess that their parents may be wrong about something, and at such a time the best thing would be to disobey?

That's very much it!

This fills me with horror. Isolation is used as: punishments in prisons; a method of breaking people down; torture; etc. Isolation of young people/children is known to cause psychological damage.

I think you paint yourself a 'too bleak pic' of psychological means to correct gone wrong behavior. Nothing of the sorts... Short time isolations (like an occasional smack) offers wrong doers merely the chance to analyze and readjust themselves to the demands.

I recall such a camp here in Florida. It's actually part of a series of "Florida Sheriff's Youth Ranches.

No, that's no it, either... try again!

Was it a Dr. Phil Mcgraw program by any chance ? I love his show...

That's more like it. That's definitely the way to go, because something has to be done to salvage the families peace of these uncontrollable rascals. It costs them a fortune, but it's all worth it.

[Aggie]

I think maybe why there's such a low opinion of any type of 'child correctional camps' is that while there's nothing wrong with the theory, properly used, it is almost impossible to make it work in real life.   Very similar to communism in that respect - it's a nice theory, but doesn't work for humans!

Institutions nearly always run into institutional problems, and ones dealing with children are particularly prone to abuses in the system. 

In addition to this, if there is a disconnect between children and their parents, it's not usually only the children that need guidance.  If one was to get any success in a 'camp', I strongly suspect it could only happen by working with both the parents and the children at the same time, and with lots of hands-on work from a social worker or family councilor. 

[Alpaca]

I think one of the reasons "camps" would be impossible to implement is the fact that all people are different. There is no "correct child." Children would have to be, if you will, re-educated in ways that would apply precisely to their individual circumstances. That means parents would have to participate, too, as Aggie and others have mentioned. In the end, it would be parents and kids as a unit, anyway. The en masse format of a camp wouldn't work, I think.

[Aggie]

Well... it was tried in Canada for the benefit of First Nations children....
Here's a basic article:
http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0011547

but I strongly recommend looking through the Google results for 'native residential schools':
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=native+residential+schools&btnG=Search&meta=


Entire generations were very heavily abused, physically, emotionally, and sexually.

In 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for the Department of Indian Affairs reported to the department that between 1894 and 1908 mortality rates at residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 35% to 60% over five years (that is, five years after entry, 35% to 60% of students had died). These statistics did not become public until 1922, when Bryce, who was no longer working for the government, published The Story of a National Crime: Being a Record of the Health Conditions of the Indians of Canada from 1904 to 1921. In particular, he alleged that the high mortality rates were frequently deliberate, with healthy children being exposed to children with tuberculosis.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Perhaps an afternoon counseling session for the family unit would work?

[jjj]

I reckon we should leave behavioral problems to psychologists, psychiatrists and or ...just allow the alternative to terrorize society (...since there's no willingness to do something about it).
That's of course no solution, but so be it! Usually, when things reach greater urgency, it kick-starts awareness and actions. So, we have just to wait for it to get worse...
I personally don't handle my problems that way, for I solve them immediately. That's why I virtually ran out of problems... and am almost glad to get a new one!   

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I would say that it's not a lack of desire to change, it's an uncertainty of how to do it. If we do it wrong, we screw up a generation of people even worse than they could do on their own. We have to think about it very, very carefully, since the consequences are great.