Higher Education

[Opsa]

Hey-o!

In the "What Are You Eating?" thread Zono, Roy and I began to discuss college tuition, but since that discussion was using up too much valuable sandwich space, I have re-started it here.

My daughter (known here as th'Opsalette) is now fifteen and in the tenth grade here in the U.S. She is a very good student, very conscientious, studies hard and gets good grades. Last semester she got all A's and did not have to take the final exams because there was no doubt about her getting an A in each class.

Mr. Ops and I are middle class. Well, okay- we're brilliant , but we are in the middle income U.S. tax bracket. Here in the states it means that we are able to live within our income, but only if we are not extravagant. We do not drive new cars or go overseas on vacation.

Th'Opsalette is being approached by colleges all ready because of her good grades. (Or maybe they send everyone dozens of college pamphlets these days, I dunno.) We are only able to save a little bit towards her college, and are hoping that she will be able to win a scholarship. (No guarantee there, of course.)

Zone says that in his state there is a program where one can freeze college class costs early. I believe we do that in our state, too.

What other ways may we start to figure out how to afford an education for th'Opsalette? She has expressed an interest in teaching, but is not really sure of what she might major in. She loves reading and is a good writer, but is also very good at drawing, acting and singing. What would you do if you were her parent?

[Griffin NoName]

At what point does she have to make a decision, like when?

Both my sons could have chosen many things; I left it up to them. Neither is actually doing what they did at university, in their jobs, so I don't think it matters. But they are both very bright so maybe it would have mattered if they weren't. Don't know.

As for money, I don't understand these things in the States, it's so different to here. But there mst be many ways of funding college.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Crushing debt is the method of choice over here, public schools are (somewhat) subsidized for in state students, but still the cost is about the same as buying a new car every year (and depending on the school a very expensive car).
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Opas, they start sending pamphlets early on, sometimes in a pseudo indiscriminate way, the good schools may send you stuff mostly because they're out of state and outrageously expensive. Yet if she has good grades she may get a full scholarship in a midrange school, for instance my son's cousin got a scholarship to stay in one of the local schools, but not for the UF (for which she also passed) because that is a better school. My son got a small scholarship for UF because he will do a double major including music (which is why he got the scholarship, a lifetime playing finally paid off ), but that scholarship will likely help pay for his accommodations (hey, I'm not complaining).

A local school will mean that she may not have to pay for lodge or (much) food, so that may be an alternative, but it may be time to research the schools, prices, etc. Be prepared to get some sticker shock, originally my son had some ideas about going to U. Chicago but the quarter of a mill educations didn't look like a logical investment, so it will be UF.

[Aggie]

What other ways may we start to figure out how to afford an education for th'Opsalette? She has expressed an interest in teaching, but is not really sure of what she might major in. She loves reading and is a good writer, but is also very good at drawing, acting and singing. What would you do if you were her parent?

Child labour.  

No, seriously... the rule of thumb at my house was that we were expected to find a summer job once we were 16, and both my sister and I worked part-time a couple of days a week throughout high school (and nearly all of post-secondary, for me).  That's not to say that she should be expected to save it all for school or pay for her education entirely by herself, but IMHO it's reasonable for her to start paying for the bulk of her discretionary spending and personal items such as clothing, shampoo, cosmetics, phone (if applicable), etc.  In turn, you can start saving the money that would otherwise come out of the household budget towards her education.  It's a good way to let her start managing money herself, and learn to prioritize her spending (plus, it allows you to side-step paying for purchases you disagree with; let her figure out buyer's remorse first-hand).

Check out what the government student loan programs are like in your state.  I was stubborn and paid for most of my education with scholarships, the bit of tuition money that Mom and Dad had tucked away for me, and by working; in my last couple of years I took a student loan from the bank, totaling about $6000. That was paid off quite easily and quickly without much interest, but my sister did better for herself.  She applied for government student loans, which were partially 'forgiven' through grant programs once she got into the workforce.  I think she was credited something like $4000 - $6000 absolutely free at the end of it. Sometimes it's a function of parental ability to help with tuition, so look into such programs early (if they exist) and don't be afraid to declare an inability to pay for her education. IMHO, it's not a terrible thing to take as many loans as necessary (provided they are interest free while the student is still going to school) and keep saving during this time, then give her a 'gift' of the tuition money upon graduation to ensure the bulk of the loans are paid back interest-free. That gives you 4+ years of breathing room on coming up with the tuition money, and most loans can also be used to cover cost of living.

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My advice with regards to schools and programs is to start local and generic, provided there are options to transfer to a larger or more desirable school later. Being able to live at home for the first couple of years helps a lot with living costs, even if there is a commute involved.  I drove about 50 km each way to school during my third year, but especially with fuel costs at the time (and a car with a 1.0 L engine) it was a much cheaper option than living away. I'm not sure if the system is the same in the US, but up here it's usually not too hard to transfer between schools if one has solid grades in the first year or two of post-secondary studies. Being able to keep that parental support for an extra year or two is also a good thing, IMHO, rather than getting dumped into an entirely new world all at once.

Personally, I don't know that I was quite mature enough to handle the transition to post-secondary right after high school (mostly in terms of workload); I did one year of sciences and then took a year off to travel before going back and settling into my studies.  This is another good reason to stick local and smaller for the first year; most first-year programs are similar and fairly generic, so there's less pressure to choose a major with a full career path in mind right off the bat.  It sounds to me like she'd be most comfortable in the Arts (obviously), but especially in the first year one can take a wide range of classes without declaring a clear major (do take a look at what courses she thinks she'd like to take in second year, to make sure she takes any prerequisite courses).

I remember the choice of WHAT TO DO WITH MY LIFE as being mind-boggling at that age, and I suppose it still is; I'm still trying out different jobs with no intention to make a career out of my current gig.


I don't think this applies as much to Th'Opsalette, but for technically-oriented people who see school mostly as a way of getting a decent job, I usually recommend looking at technical schools and diploma programs, which can be as short as 2 years and give you some assurance of working.  Getting into the workforce quickly in an area that you suspect you might like keeps tuition to a minimum, gets loans paid off and lets you figure out sooner rather than later if the realities of an industry sector are right for you. Likewise for apprenticeship into the trades, which is an even quicker and more lucrative way to get an education and develop skills.


One final note; if she's serious about teaching, have you considered sending her to Canada? Teaching up here is considered a good-paying and respectable job, especially in smaller centres. I gather that isn't quite the usual scenario in the US. Generally, education is a 2-year add-on to any other degree, so it probably doesn't need to be an immediate choice, but again check out transferability.

[Griffin NoName]

As usual I remain mystified. What age do you go to "school"? What age do you go to "University". We don't have to pay anything for school, up to age 18/19. Only uni thereafter.

[Opsa]

Here we can go to public school until around age 18 for free. Then we can either go to trade school, college or university but which all cost anything from reasonable to outrageous. As indicated above (and thank you for your input so far, by the way!) there are fortunately loads of scholarships and grants a smart kid can get. There's also blowing off higher education completely.

She occasionally freaks out because she all ready feels the pressure to decide. I tell her that she really doesn't have to decide right this very moment, and that in fact many people change careers all over the place, as I have. I also tell her that she should do what she thinks is best, but we will help guide her.

I agree, that a local college or univ would be the most affordable, if she can live at home. Some kids really wanna leave home by then, but she's  had an uncanny talent for being able to stand her parents so far, so we'll see.

She is way more practical than I ever was, and that's why she's thought about teaching. You're right Aggie, teachers here get paid rather poorly for all they give, but the upside of it is that they do not have a hard time finding jobs, especially if they are good at their work. Th'O'lette is very patient with people (she's had to put up with me, good lord) and kids tend to love her. That's why she mentioned teaching. Plus, we spent some time at Longwood University (a teacher's school) when she was with a children's music group and fell in love with the campus.

We have a few good colleges and univs within driving distance.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

You could mention a hybrid option:   live at home for 1 or 2 years, then transfer to a state school for the last 2 or 3.

She could even take a break between years 2 and 4, without any real harm-- help her to settle what she wants, as she works for a time sans higher credentials.  (it can be an eye opener...)

I did one year at home at a local junior college, before transferring to state.

And yes, I worked between a bit.

[Opsa]

Good advice, Bob, thank you.

It will be interesting to see what she chooses to do.

[roystonoboogie]

I was a late starter with higher education - I went to University at the age of 33 to do History and Politics, and came out with a degree in Psychology (this mid-stream change of horses is fairly typical for me, by the way. Get used to inwardly cringing and saying "Oooh! I wouldn't have done that!").

Anyway, if Th'Opsalete doesn't know what she wants to do but has fairly good skills around writing and creativity, I would suggest a general Arts and Humanities course, where they build in the ability to change tack once you discover what you're good at. It certainly worked for me - I discovered that as much as I like real-world politics, the study of political science was as dull as ditchwater. Also, having picked up a remedial mathematics course in first year (the teacher who taught me maths at high school had a whole class fail their exams - he is now a hairdresser), I discovered that I could do statistics and stuff, and the more scientific aspects of Psychology were all of a sudden open to me.

Now maybe Th'Opsalette has different issues around not knowing what she wants to do, so she will go a different way from me; but my point is that there was flexibility built into the structure of the courses, so that people could discover their strengths and work to them even if it means a change from the original plan. If you are looking around universities and those sorts of courses, ask about ease of changing subjects.

The Boy knew from the age of 12 that he wanted to be a scientist, he's a mathematical freak and can do trigonometry in his head. He knew that he wanted to study Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Physical Chemistry, Chemical Physics, something like that. So he went straight down that line, and now he's doing a Masters in Chemical Process Engineering (I think?) at Edinburgh (rated 46th in the world). He has a flat near the city centre, and thanks to my connections in the world of music, comedy and theatre he has a regular stream of interesting and thought-provoking house guests doing shows in Edinburgh and looking for a place to crash.

The fees at Edinburgh for non-Scottish UK residents are £9k per annum, for overseas students I believe it is in the region of £20k per annum, but for Scottish residents tuition is free. If that were not the case, he would be studying at the University of the West of Scotland (very close to home, but probably rated 46th in Scotland). The Boy was ready to leave home, and I think that he would not have received such a good education at the local university, but he would also have lost out on the personal development and growing up that he is currently getting by being cut adrift in probably the most exciting city in Scotland.

Incidentally, I might need to do a Masters at some point, just so I am not the least qualified person in the house. Mrs O'Boogie has two Masters degrees, and The Boy will undoubtedly get his; so I'll be the stupid old man in his shed with his insignificant BA (Hons.)...

[Lindorm]

If it is possible, perhaps she should look into taking a first introductory course in a subject that is "only" interesting, but not "Yes! This is what I want to do"-interesting. It might be a good way of coming to grips with the change of going to university, adjusting to university studies and moving away from home and all that, and since the stakes aren't too high, an occassional speed bump isn't such a disaster.

I myself have a dual degree, and I think I have mentioned that I was orignially aiming for a doctorate in history, ending up with a degree (but not a phd) in history, a degree i computer science aimed at human-technonoly-orgaizational issues -and work with something completely different. I can't say that I regret having done all those courses, and I actually find use for quite a bit of what I have learned even today, in my current line of work. Studying history was a very good way of learning how to analyze and evaluate sources of information, how to structure your arguments and how to express yourself in writing -all skills that I find tremendously useful today. A grounding in the humanities is probably a good stepping-stone for just about anything.

Opsa, please pass on my best wishes for the Opsalettes coming university studies -and please do tell us in a few years what she actually chose to do!

[Opsa]

Roy, you are so hilarious, and I thank you and Lindorm for the advice.

We just got word that she's up for Advanced Placement classes, which is good.

She loves and is good at a number of things and I think that's confusing her. She thinks she has to choose right away, but as you suggest- she doesn't. That's what universities are supposed to help you figure out. Arts and Humanities is a good idea, that's where her heart resides.

I hope that she can figure out what will make her happy and go for it, but that also can change!

[Sibling Qwertyuiopasd]

In terms of being good at a variety of things... even though she will likely have to choose one thing (even if it's a broad area like "English" or what have you), that absolutely doesn't mean one has to stop doing or focus less on other things.

Seems obvious, but just from my own reflection, I was doing a fair bit of Piano and music theory work in High School, and spend the first part of my college search looking at music programs, though I ultimately decided I didn't want to lock myself in a room for 4 years doing nothing but practicing (an exagerration, but still). But, I didn't take any sort of piano (even though I had/have a few small electronic ones) to my dorm room, though I didn't need to because the school had ones that were available for the music students, and all students as long as they aren't reserved by music students at the time. I did take advantage of that a few times, but I mostly got way out of practice. Again, not the worst thing in the world, and I still pick the piano up (as it were) now and again. But it's hardly consistent and I definitely would have more skill with it today if I was more consistent even though I've been studying philosophy and engaging in other pursuits.

So, tl;dr version: Might not hurt to put a little intentional effort into keeping up with interests, hobbies, skills, etc. that aren't your "main" focus, as it were, or that once were but are no longer.

As long as one can budget time for it all, one can do all the things one wants to, even if only one of them is your "major" or eventually your "job."

Or is this just wishful thinking on my part? 

[Griffin NoName]

Or is this just wishful thinking on my part? 

Depends if you get that job as Resident Philosopher at Microsoft or not 

[Lindorm]

To further elaborate on the words of Qwertyuiopsad (or Qwertyuiopå¨ as his name is pronounced in Swedish), keeping an active interest in something outside your main interest/field of study/work/ is, I believe, absolutely vital.

Too much of a good thing can absolutely choke you -in the worst case, turn something you genuinely love into something that is only a burden. Likewise, you can get quite narrow-minded and have your perspective limited by mental blinders. Doing something completely different from time to time helps stimulate you, moves those mental blinders away, excercise different parts of your mind and hopefully gives you a different perspective on things. Heaven knows that nowadays I try to keep what little time off I have as free from trains as i possibly can.

[Aggie]

As long as one can budget time for it all, one can do all the things one wants to, even if only one of them is your "major" or eventually your "job."

Or is this just wishful thinking on my part?  

As a former science major, and then a tech school grad.... huh?  Are we talking during the school term?



I fully agree that it's a good idea, and vital, but I'm not sure it's always possible for most people. I remember a lot of getting up early, packing breakfast, lunch and dinner and staying at school until midnight.  By the end of my second year of tech school, I had been there so much that I got married to one of my classmates, by the school chaplain, on campus.  

The last few years, I've stepped away from having a proper career to give myself more time for extra-curricular activities and outside interests. _{Work has tended to drag me back kicking and screaming, but I'm hoping that won't be the case in my current job.} I seem to have a knack for turning it all into work, though, and overloading my plate to where all these extra things become just as obligatory as work, and sometimes more sorely cursed.