Conceding Non-Consensus

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

"There is no such thing as The Absolute Truth but half truths are not truths at all"

Are we getting into Kantian metaphysics?


I like the search of The Truth as the search for perfection (or the perfect interpretation of a musical piece): It is impossible to reach it but you try to get as close as you can.

[Opsa]

I have known the truth several times.

And then I changed my mind.



By the way, to reflect this discussion, I have added a line to the Home page:

"The Toadfish are a monastic order dedicated to humbleness, mutual respect, philosophical discussion and witty wordplay. We are a monastery of individuals who celebrate our religious and non-religious diversity. Our mission is to promote worldwide tolerance by milennium's end. We believe that to be a reasonable goal."

Until it was brought up, I didn't realize that someone might read the word "monastery" and just assume it belonged to a particular sect. We'll have to bust up that preconception.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

We aren't a sect? But now what will I tell the next YECs that show up in my front door?

[The Meromorph]

We aren't a sect? But now what will I tell the next YECs that show up in my front door?

Tel lthem "Kelp Roots!".
And refuse to elaborate, on religious grounds...   

[Sibling Chatty]

But what if they say "Well, yes, kelp must root in some way in order to grow. But WHY??"

(Disagreement through agreement. Tactic 1,392)

[Pachyderm]

You could tell them it does so in order to establish it's position within the known universe. Kelp have heard of this mythical place "Dry Land", where all the good seaweed goes when it's holdfast eventually fails. But only good seaweed gets there. None of your covered in barnacles and mermaid's purses fronds will get to Dry Land.

And watch them run....

[Sibling Chatty]

I can get them running by quoting Scripture and asking them why they choose to twist the meaning of the Word...

The 7 version Parallel Bible and the Latin and Greek texts scare them off quickly.

[Pachyderm]

I once answered the door (was expecting it to be a friend) holding a bloody knife, and a recently deceased chicken.

"We would like to talk to you abou....."

"I'm a little busy at the moment. do call back in an hour or two."

I have no idea who they told, but have not been bothered by Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of the Latter Day Saints, Methodists or the Hari Krishnas since.

Have seen various groups going round the other houses in the road,  no-one comes to our door. Not, I hasten to add, that I am complaining....

[Bluenose]

Oh man, look what happens when I'm not here for five minutes, all this interesting discussion!

My spin on this is that my most deeply held conviction (belief, whatever word you want to use) is that there is no such thing as absolute truth or certain knowledge with the sole exception of some branches of mathematics. (and I could be wrong about that too).

I always think to myself that "this might not be so".  My universe is entirely populated by probability.  Many things IMO are very probably, they are things that are generally considered to be facts, other things I believe to be of very low probability (these are generally considered to be myths of various flavours).  Of course there is much in between.

I enjoy discussing my ideas and the ideas of others.  I usually pick up some valuable insights and justifying or defending your beliefs helps you to refine them (or in my world view shift the probability a bit).  My base position is that the other person may, just possibly, be right.  However, the more extreme their belief, the more extreme justification for their belief I require before I am prepared to adopt it.  However, even in the most extreme case there may be some element that  I can find useful.

The thing is to understand that the other person is a human too.  I (we) may find a particular view repellent, but that does not mean that we should dismiss it out of hand.  For example a very topical thing is the acts of terrorists in recent times.  Now I do not accept the justifications that have been put up to support their acts, but we are gravely mistaken if we do not try to understand why these people do these things.  From their perspective they are moral people and are doing good works.  Without trying to accept that these works are "good" we need to understand the reasons that these people think the way they do.  We will never convince them that they are wrong by poking a gun in their face.  Indeed, we are likely to reinforce their thinking.  I do not say we should accept their actions, actions should have consequences, but ignoring the world view of these people only ensures that their kind of thinking will be perpetuated.

The first thing, if we wish to change these things, IMO, is to show tolerance for their ideals (not their actions) and try to understand where they are coming from.  It seems to me that most of this terrible activity is ultimately rooted in the conditions that people live in, or the conditions that people live in that the terrorists identify with.  I am firmly of the belief that the best way to fight terrorism is to fight those things that marginalise people.

To do that requires tolerance as the very first thing.

I seem to have got a bit off topic here, but I will allow the above to stand.  The thing is, this place can and does set an example for how people with very different views and beliefs can get along.  I do not agree with (for example) Sibling
Chatty's religious beliefs at all, but that does not matter to me, whatever the reasons for the way she acts here I respect and even love her (in an entirely platonic way of course) as I do all the siblings.  You (we) are an amazing bunch.  We can discuss all sorts of serious things, yet we can be very playful too.  What a great example of tolerance.  Let us continue to lead by example and also try to find ways to get our message out there.  We do not need to convince people that our way is "right", let us just show that tolerance is possible.  Let us show that we can discuss contentious issues without acrimony, because we practice tolerance.  Let us show that this is not just a show of words, that we welcome anyone who is prepared to do just one things - allow others the right to be different.

Sibling Bluenose

[anthrobabe]

I second those thoughts---

I don't agree with everyone- but I do love everyone and I'll stand beside/behind/with you no matter what because of the acceptance you've given me I give to you- freely and without condition. Not one of you has to be anything other than YOU

(I'm still not taking any IOU's from the pirates though.) 

[Griffin NoName]

..... we are gravely mistaken if we do not try to understand why these people do these things.  From their perspective they are moral people and are doing good works.  Without trying to accept that these works are "good" we need to understand the reasons that these people think the way they do.  We will never convince them that they are wrong by poking a gun in their face.  Indeed, we are likely to reinforce their thinking.  I do not say we should accept their actions, actions should have consequences, but ignoring the world view of these people only ensures that their kind of thinking will be perpetuated....
......
To do that requires tolerance as the very first thing......

While I agree about understanding but I haven't a clue how the type of different thinking I imagine you refer to can be prevented from being perpetuated.

Example. My Hassidic cousin cannot be alone in a room with me. When we were accompanied by his mother in the room, he could not look at me but addressed himself to the wall when talking to me.

I understand that this is because he may have had wicked thoughts if he were to look at me. The original Sin.

I can be tolerant of this, although it feels very strange to be such a scary person. But I don't believe anything will ever change his community from having these beliefs and I don't believe his community will disappear.

So, I am not sure that tolerance of this is actually helpful. And, no I don't have any answers. But we need answers.

[anthrobabe]

[I can be tolerant of this, although it feels very strange to be such a scary person. But I don't believe anything will ever change his community from having these beliefs and I don't believe his community will disappear.

So, I am not sure that tolerance of this is actually helpful. And, no I don't have any answers. But we need answers.

I'm not sure, either if being tolerant is helpful to anyone but myself.
Can we be tolerant and vocal at the same time- or does one negate the other.
If I'm tolerant of this, but I share my views about it... that sort of thing

[Griffin NoName]

The only way to show tolerance and understanding with a man who considers females induce wicked thoughts is by keeping quiet on the matter - otherwise one is probably going to induce wicked thoughts   Does that extrapolate to other circumstances with other beliefs ? (my head is screwed up thinking about it; don't mention the war).

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The only measure I can think of is harm: depending on a relative amount of harm that comes from a particular belief, it can or not be tolerated. If someone thinks that having sex with a virgin (read preteen girl) will cure his AIDS then his belief is not tolerable at all. Other beliefs may be less harmful or even possibly to the tolerable level. There is of course disagreement as to what constitutes harm, but in general there is agreement that murder, rape, and slavery (among others) are definitively harmful (apparently torture has been going out of that list in certain sectors of the population  ).

[Griffin NoName]

Problem for me is that I doubt that even a like-minded group such as Toadfish would agree on what is harmful and what is not, apart from the most obvious ones including those Zono mentions.