My Eyes are Up Here (Split from "What Are You Wearing?")

[Griffin NoName]

I wonder if the fact that some of my bouncy parts (well okay, all of them) have moved southward from the eye area makes it easier for men to talk to the eyes.

Where does that leave me with one high and one low? 

[Opsa]

  Slightly easier to look in the eye?

[Aggie]

I don't think so. Gay and Bi wymmyn   know exactly how creepy visual fondling is, and know that it would turn off a potential partner.

I don't think that when a male is conducting this sort of thing, it's really meant to convey interest to a potential partner.  IMHO it's far more likely to carried out by two groups of men: a) those who know they don't have a chance anyways, so they take their visual pleasures with no regard for negative reactions  and  b) those in power who consider women as subordinates, and feel above any negative reaction. _{(pieces' elevator example fits  this one, I think.... I don't read it as intentional intimidation so much as assumed superiority; I agree with the reading of it as intimidation on the part of the receiver, because that's what it amounts to when someone assumes superiority)}

I'd suspect the dynamic is different with women/women* interactions, for a few reasons. One is that I suspect the fascination with breasts is ramped down a little, simply due to familiarity.  That's not to say that they're not an object of sexual desire, but that it's possibly a little less of an obsession when you have your own. I would also speculate that the simple lack of a penis in the interaction potentially makes it less creepy; the spectre of rape makes unwanted male attention much more of a threat, IMHO. I expect that what makes the visual fondle so chilling is that it's a potential precursor to a forced physical fondle or worse.

*_{I'll skip the y's; my read of the words 'woman' and 'man' is not that the former is a derivation of latter, but that the latter is a deficient version of the former (it's true even genetically; a Y chromosome is basically an amputated X.  They stuck the extra bit out front, though ).}


----

I'm having a little trouble really groking this discussion fully, because it's somewhat outside my realm of personal experience.  I'm certainly not disputing ANY of it! (it completely meshes with my pessimistic view of men), but it seems to me that less of this sort of thing happens in my part of the world; it would be considered rude by most Canadian men to openly gawk, I think.  I work in the service industry and I've rarely heard the servers complaining about this sort of thing, but that's not to say it doesn't happen, especially in other socioeconomic circles.

However, it makes me wonder if some of this is more prevalent in America than Canada.  There's usually a strong cultural component in gender interactions.  I'll bet Zono has an interesting perspective from growing up in a different culture, too.  

[pieces o nine]

However, it makes me wonder if some of this is more prevalent in America than Canada.  There's usually a strong cultural component in gender interactions.

Here in Amurka, we go in for Xtremes.   

In this case, Xtreme!PuritanPrudishness rubbing shoulders [or worse!] with Xtreme!LarryFlyntism and Xtreme!Gaia!Wymyn! and Xtreme![mostly white, middle class]MRAs. The only thing we can be certain of is that we're mortally offended by each other...

I'll bet Zono has an interesting perspective from growing up in a different culture, too.

Amongst other cultures represented in the Monastery...   where are people most comfortable?

[Opsa]

It occasionally happens here in the U.S. and is considered to be rude here, too. The problem is what would be the best reaction when it does happen? Ignoring the fact?

I think that women are protective of each other. If I ignore a guy who talks to my boobs I know he will go and do it elsewhere. Do I consider that not my problem? I suppose it is not up to me to try to teach him not to do it.

I was troubled by this news item: Jury acquits Air Force officer accused of groping
A man who once led the Air Force sexual assault response team grabbed a woman's buttocks outside a bar. She punched him several times! (Sorry, but I cheered when I heard this part.) Clearly, she did not approve of the grope. But they let him go. I don't suppose he'll ever try this again, but did she get justice?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The problem judging these kinds of things is that the only view I can personally vouch for is mine, that is, all straight men I know gawk at women, but how discretely or aggressively it's hard to judge, more so because there is certain level of alpha male pride to say how attractive* is so and so.

My wife, sisters, and friends do make comments on the subject, but as with any other perception, negative reactions have more weight than positive ones, which would lend to believe that 98% of males are disgusting animals. On that one is also hard to know how aggressive are the offenders, or how intimidated are the victims because at a glance it would seem that a) it is so common place it doesn't merit frequent comment, and b) it's confronted with detached disgust more than actual intimidation.

Social strata also plays a large role, as most of the complaints are against blue collar working men, which I would attribute more to ingrained politeness in white collar men than the actual intent, which BTW would seem the same in all warm blooded males regardless of class, race, ethnicity, country of origin or even religion. 

On that last comment I would say that while I'm certain that some men are beer away from rapey actions, the majority of men aren't and that many of those who pass for aggressive power players are simply showing how unrefined they are more than evil intent.

*I'm being polite with that adjective.

[Opsa]

Well yeah, most men are marvelous, but what do we women do when we have to deal with those that really aren't so much?

In the above case, the man was an officer. White collar. Even had been on a sexual assault response team, so he really should have known better! What do you think was up with him?

I love his only response, "I love my children". I saw that on the news. That was his one and only comment as the news teams followed him down the sidewalk. What the heck did that have to do with physically fondling a woman's rear end in public and asking her if she liked it? There were witnesses. And they're letting him go. I'm dumbfounded. Apparently all this talk about protecting women from this sort of abuse is just a bunch of hot air.

I'm tellin' ya, some radical bunch of women should go and find this guy, grab his butt and sit it in squarely in a pail of bull droppings while wearing t-shirts that say "I love my children".

No, I don't really mean that. But sometimes it is disappointing to know how little the law actually protects people. Why even go to court if a man who sat on a panel and heard people's grief about being sexually harassed can do such a thing and then go on his merry way?

This is why women get so pissy when men make a public display of staring at their breasts for long periods of time. (NOT just a quick look, people! That can be forgiven.) It really is social aggression to give anyone undue and unwanted attention.

[pieces o nine]

I think that women are protective of each other. If I ignore a guy who talks to my boobs I know he will go and do it elsewhere. Do I consider that not my problem? I suppose it is not up to me to try to teach him not to do it.

I hear you - it can be a tough call.

I worked in an art supply shop in my early 20s. One male artist insisted that I help him and all but laid on the counter in order to get his eyes closer to the objects of his particular fascination. I was horrified and angry, and it never changed. My boss did nothing but laugh nervously at my reaction after artist left each time.

Eventually the one-man boob appreciation society married and brought her in with him. While she was in another part of the shop  he picked right up where he'd left off last visit, laughing and making the usual couple 'jokes' about my obvious discomfort and attempt to stay as far away as possible.  I had had it up to my underwires, sister girlfriends, mmhmmm.

I behaved with unusual courtesy and he probably thought I was on best behavior to avoid *my* attracting the attention of the new wife. Nope. As his sale was concluded she joined him at the counter. I met her eyes, smiled nicely, and said it was nice to meet her. They turned to leave. When they were halfway to the door I turned to boss and said in an exaggeratedly sweet voice, pitched to carry clear *outside*,  I love to wait on that customer.  My boss began laughing extra nervously because this was a bald-faced lie. I added, he is the most considerate man I've ever met,  and boss's eyes began to roll a little as the wife paused and turned to hear my compliments to her hubby. Pretending (not convincingly) that I didn't see them, I said, he apparently thinks I am deaf and the middle button on my blouse is a microphone to my tiny, hidden hearing aids. As a courtesy he always makes sure to get as close as humanly possible to it to insure that I hear him clearly.  Boss was blanching and co-workers were covering smiles. I finished, my voice rising with equal parts fake sweetness and pent-up anger, isn't that the most considerate person we've ever had in the shop? Then I went to the back room.

Co-workers informed me that the wife was livid, and not with me. She hustled a clearly shaken new husband out of the shop by his arm, but they all sensed that it was really by his balls. The couple continued to shop with us, but she *always* accompanied him after that, and he gave his order to whoever was behind the counter instead of hunting me down to harass. When I did wait on them, he kept his eyes on his side of the counter, and the wife and I enjoyed a pleasant exchange. It was great.

I would have lost my job at most places for doing that. But it did enlighten one troglodyte and may have helped his wife wise up to potential cheating, as I had no doubt that 'visual fondling' led easily to 'physical fondling' if/when/whereever he thought he could get away with it.

Remembering this still puts a smile on my face. I bet SiblingC would have liked that story, too...

[Opsa]

Sistah girlfriend, if I could give you more than one hug at once, I would.

[pieces o nine]

This passed  my browser today.  Rush is reacting to this.

If only I had paid more attention to El Rushbo I would have been a better citizen in my young, Liberal adulthood.    


DISCLAIMER:  links to Rush Limbaugh comments which may not be appropriate for work, nor for that matter, human beings in any setting.

[Opsa]

Silly, silly, silly!

Glancing is forgivable. It's openly leering that is creepy.

We do not wish to refuse anyone a freedom. We just want to be free of worrying that some weirdo is going to allow himself to touch us inappropriately.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

This is Rush we're talking about, who in the world takes the drug addicted b@$tard seriously?

(...oh yeah, there are a bunch of weirdos that take him seriously... )

[Opsa]

Well thank goodness you don't, anyway, Zone! 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Of course I agree! I demand my god given right to ogle...

[Opsa]

Hey! Do you think if we wore two mirrors on our chests that the ogley guys would have to look at their olgley faces, and be turned off?

...or would they be so taken with themselves that this would only make matters worse?