My Eyes are Up Here (Split from "What Are You Wearing?")

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I resent males whose eyes almost audibly focus in on my chest

[clueless male comment ahead]
I find incredibly ironic how those lacking, erm... presence on that department complain about it and those, mmm... gifted on that area complain of undue attention. In fact it would seem like there is no perfect size as those with more want less and those with less want more (with those in the mathematical middle identifying themselves with the other two groups).

Men OTOH may resent smaller sizes but I have yet to hear one complaining of large ones...

[Opsa]

I don't mind a small peek, but it's the guys that just sort of focus there that are creepy.

Auburn hooded sweater with big buttons and beige jeans. Beige "minimizer" bra to avoid too much undue attention.

[pieces o nine]

The monastery is the place to post musings and be met with taddy replies.
Reverse the scenario, Zono. 

-If most of the times a guy of any age encountered any female, her eyes zoomed to his fly and stayed there during the entire encounter/conversation, would he find that 'empowering'?
-If females of all ages (including those inappropriately young, old, or not in his mating pool for other reasons) pointedly jammed their elbows into each other's ribs and either nodded, whistling and cat-calling, or pointed outright as he passed, shouting audible speculations on his prowess, personal kinks, and/or intelligence(!), while chastising him for 'not appreciating compliments' or accusing him of being a homer-seckshuwal in need of a 'real woman' if he wasn't receptive?
-If, when he was young, some felt entitled to grope as he passed and patronizingly told him they were just checking if it was real (on the plus size) or if it even existed at all (on the minus size), and those keeping their hands to themselves either chimed right in, or looked away and said nothing because they didn't want to interfere with girls just having fun?
-If, when he was teaching, giving presentations, or appearing before groups for any reason, many females in the audience maintained missile-lock and only looked up at his face to either sneer or leer?
-If guys who enjoyed the attention told him that he was just being a killjoy for everyone and just to lighten up and put on tighter pants, would he come to his senses?

I realize that is some men's deepest dream...   
What I mean is, people notice what is noticeable whether it's attractive or off-putting, but to normalize reducing a fellow person to a single physical feature is not a compliment. <--- And I know you weren't doing that.


~   ~   ~   ~   ~   ~   ~   ~   ~ 
jeans and a t-shirt

[Griffin NoName]

I don't think I normally look for that --

I am afraid you probably do. It's so fast you would never be aware of it. They found it doing those "where eyes focus" tests. Our eyes take in much more than just what we think we are seeing.

I'm also afraid that ever since I came across this fact, I find I can't stop looking in the "wrong" place, I say to myself "don't look, don't look, DON'T LOOK" (like don't mention the war).................. I wish I'd never read this piece of research and remained unaware.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Short red dress and black velvet leggings.

[pieces o nine]

Eyes glance down? I'm sure they do.
Eyes remain focused down? Nope.

[Griffin NoName]

No, I don't think they remain focused there. It's more like a momentary - milli-second - sweep.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Reverse the scenario,

I get what you're saying, that is, if you get a frequent reptilian response from males. Nothing justifies such animal responses, nor am I going to try.

I guess the other side of the question is how often it happens (way more than desired I imagine), and what happens with what I would call intermediate responses, that is, yes, there is a visual check that may happen more than once or twice during a conversation, how uncomfortable that is? Do you use cleavage?

Again, in no way or form I'm trying to justify inappropriate behavior, but I would surmise that it is a natural response if the information is in your face, so to speak.  

The other side is how insecure many women are about their bodies (I know that we men don't help much), which I sometimes find puzzling to say the least.
---
I'd love to remain on topic, but it is bed time and I sleep in the most comfortable outfit anyone can get (and that would get undue attention if 'used' somewhere else...).

[Opsa]

Okay, I moved this from "What Are You Wearing". It is a good topic and everyone is being very Taddy and that is so appreciated.

I think that probably most people probably do a quick check of the other, consciously or otherwise. The trouble is that some people make more of a display of the checking-out than others.

I have a question: Some guys really are creepy to women when their eyes stay on a woman's chest as they are talking to them. Are they innocent of how they appear, or are they being total jerks? Is it a power trip? What is up with it?

From my point of view when a guy stares at my chest when we are speaking, I feel that he is making some sort of aggressive statement, along the lines of : "I am mentally deciding whether or not you are worthy of my sexual attention" or that sort of carp. I feel he is trying to upset me and I am forced to do internal battle with myself to keep from thoughts punching his leering face (my lizard brain battling against his). It puts me in a bad position, as I have to maintain dignity while trying to communicate that I think he's being inappropriate.

[Griffin NoName]

Yes, there's a ultra-fast milli-second totally unconscious glance, presumably hard-wired, purely biological, but if this then lingers it's conscious..... I do think if the lingering is very very short time, maybe it signals sexual interest at an ok level, but if it's a longer linger it becomes offfensive. Women playing with their hair when talking to a potential, is flirting, but how conscious? Likewise our pupils dilate, which I certainly can't do to order. That's my take anyway.

While I was talking to a male friend yesterday he kept looking at my hand

[Aggie]

If women had eyes in the back of their head, they wouldn't just be complaining about men staring at their chests.  Men are probably as bad or worse with your backsides.

While I was talking to a male friend yesterday he kept looking at my hand

I'm now of the age that the fourth finger on a woman's left hand is relatively high on the 'check-out' list. 

I'm not too concerned if a woman's eyes linger on my best attribute.......      which would be my eyes.   Seriously, though... I'm a big fan of working my eyes, and therefore I'm never tempted to glance downwards when speaking to a woman.  It's much more effective to keep my gaze locked with hers.

I think guys who are obvious low-eyed leerers are just satisfying their own need for gazing upon the female form without any empathy about what it's like to be on the receiving end of that stare. I'm certainly not defending jerks who can't glance discreetly, but I think for men in particular the act of gazing is a big part of our sexuality (hence the near-ubiquity of internet porn, and the existence of strip clubs).  I'm a terrible girl-watcher, and it's not primarily about assessing potential sexual partners; it's a drive unto itself. It's also not unusual for there to be a mismatch between my current tastes in what I find attractive in a partner and what my reptile-brain likes to look at. For me, it's gaze without intent.  However, when a man sits there staring at a particular body part, it projects an intent/desire to interact with said body part. That's the creepy part, when it becomes a visual fondle.

Although I've already noted that I prefer eye contact, when talking to a woman there's really no way to look downward from her face without giving the impression that you're glancing at her breasts. When one needs to break eye contact,  it's necessary to look up or sideways. A downward glance by a woman talking to a man wouldn't be interpreted as anything in particular (barring obvious eye-lock on the crotch), except maybe a general all-over check-out, if exaggerated.

-----

In jest:  For the amply endowed woman, I wonder if there is a way of building a bra with a concealed pop-up phallus that could be triggered, jack-in-the-box style, to pop out towards the face of leering creeps.  That'd fix 'em!

[Opsa]

We could call it the Cleavage C***!

Very interesting input, Aggie. Gaze without intent. Hmmm. To me, it usually feels like intent of some kind.

Another problem of course, is proximity. If men's crotches were right below their faces maybe we women would have a more difficult time avoiding the second peek. Especially if he looked, ...er, amply endowed.

But I swear, there have been guys who have really talked to my face while staring at my breasts the whole time. The worst instances are when I am at a job and a customer does this. Women do a lot of face reading when talking, and part of that involves looking at someone's eyes to see if they understand what's being said. Do guys do this less? Or are some of them just too distracted by the bouncy stuff?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

We do get distracted easily by many things, involving shape and smell (that one is really distracting). We literally have to train ourselves not to be obvious in the glancing department. 

[Griffin NoName]

While I was talking to a male friend yesterday he kept looking at my hand

I'm now of the age that the fourth finger on a woman's left hand is relatively high on the 'check-out' list. 

It was my left hand........... but he knows I have no SO.

watch out for the women who take their rings off......... I've actually had a man take his off in front of my eyes when he thought I wasn't watching......... now That's intent.

[pieces o nine]

Thanks for splitting the topic, Opsa. I enjoy these serious discussions whether I'm participating madly or just following along each day! You're right about the lizard-to-lizard element of challenge and discomfort; it's irritating that various subgroups of the species are permitted very lizard-like behavior under different sets of circumstances, while the other parts are expected to react like zen masters.  

However, when a man sits there staring at a particular body part, it projects an intent/desire to interact with said body part. That's the creepy part, when it becomes a visual fondle.

"Visual fondle" is a very good description, Aggie -- it conveys the creepiness of being stared at, and (on some level) the [man's*] awareness that he's left good manners in the dust.

The other side is how insecure many women are about their bodies (I know that we men don't help much), which I sometimes find puzzling to say the least.

Yes, many [most?] are, and there are a lot of reasons. Young women entering adolescence are doing so with bodies that are almost always too much this and too little that for whatever arbitrary list their culture/time is emphasizing. And they're still supposed to be the choose-ee, not the choose-er, by young men who are clearing their own hurdles of breaking voices and bodies gone suddenly treacherous. I've dated otherwise "nice" men who still laughed heartily, well into their 30s, while remembering harassing some poor girl or other who stood out from the group in any way whatsoever. They honestly thought it was normal and funsie and that "something was wrong" with a girl who "lacked confidence" when they hooted at/rated her. Some had friends who had still  not gotten past that stage. There's a definite inequality in the range of "attractive" for females and for males. There's a line in The First Wive's Club:  "No, Sean Connery is Monique's boyfriend! He may be three hundred years old, but he's still a stud!"  That joke is too close to the truth, and it doesn't help "confidence" for any female past her 20s.

Our species is also not progressing very well to a point where a female can admit to a frank physical interest, without that being interpreted as an immediate invitation to all and sundry for  all and sundry. An artificial coyness is taught by many cultures and religions as protection, but that doesn't really solve anything and adds a veneer of deceit to male/female interactions that, in itself, can be used to cause problems for one or both parties. When a man whom I have definitely *not* invited into my personal space feels entitled to "visually fondle" in an inappropriate venue -- such as a classroom or the workplace or a closed space like an elevator -- it's intentional intimidation; it's supposed to put me off my game and make me feel powerless in the interaction.

Now that I am on the geezerette trail, this happens far less and with far less frequency, and my first impulse is to laugh heartily. But that's because I no longer give a rodent's derriere what these males think of me as a desirable female, a situation far different than in the past.


~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~  ~    
* Hmmmm, it could  be a woman; there must be some  ♀+♀  or  ♀+♀+♂  oriented women who do this to potential female partners, but I've never heard it complained about. Now I'm gonna hafta axe somebody about this...

[Opsa]

* Hmmmm, it could  be a woman; there must be some  ♀+♀  or  ♀+♀+♂  oriented women who do this to potential female partners, but I've never heard it complained about. Now I'm gonna hafta axe somebody about this...

I don't think so. Gay and Bi wymmyn   know exactly how creepy visual fondling is, and know that it would turn off a potential partner.

Being a geezerette too, I wonder if the fact that some of my bouncy parts (well okay, all of them) have moved southward from the eye area makes it easier for men to talk to the eyes. It still doesn't make it any better when men gawk at my chest, as I see that as extreme creepiness and rudeness on their part. I don't want to have any contact with those men other than to smack their stupid faces... but I don't because I know that would put me on their ignorant level.

Lizard Opsa is not interested in studs, either. OMG, I had a contractor lunge at me once after he got his check. I assumed he had gone overboard with the Viagra and shooed him away. Needless to say we never asked him to work on our house again. So although he was studly he was not attractive. Sean Connery is attractive (other than physically) because he seems to be intelligent (speaks well) and has a sense of humor. Lizard Opsa likes those qualities a lot! Of course, non-lizard Opsa knows that she wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of having Sean Connery. Drat!

Men who cannot or do not control their eyes send the message that they cannot control themselves- a HUJE turnoff! Thank you, Zone and Aggie, on behalf of women everywhere for doing your best to control those eyes. We know it can be a challenge, but you are more attractive because of your efforts.

[Griffin NoName]

I wonder if the fact that some of my bouncy parts (well okay, all of them) have moved southward from the eye area makes it easier for men to talk to the eyes.

Where does that leave me with one high and one low? 

[Opsa]

  Slightly easier to look in the eye?

[Aggie]

I don't think so. Gay and Bi wymmyn   know exactly how creepy visual fondling is, and know that it would turn off a potential partner.

I don't think that when a male is conducting this sort of thing, it's really meant to convey interest to a potential partner.  IMHO it's far more likely to carried out by two groups of men: a) those who know they don't have a chance anyways, so they take their visual pleasures with no regard for negative reactions  and  b) those in power who consider women as subordinates, and feel above any negative reaction. _{(pieces' elevator example fits  this one, I think.... I don't read it as intentional intimidation so much as assumed superiority; I agree with the reading of it as intimidation on the part of the receiver, because that's what it amounts to when someone assumes superiority)}

I'd suspect the dynamic is different with women/women* interactions, for a few reasons. One is that I suspect the fascination with breasts is ramped down a little, simply due to familiarity.  That's not to say that they're not an object of sexual desire, but that it's possibly a little less of an obsession when you have your own. I would also speculate that the simple lack of a penis in the interaction potentially makes it less creepy; the spectre of rape makes unwanted male attention much more of a threat, IMHO. I expect that what makes the visual fondle so chilling is that it's a potential precursor to a forced physical fondle or worse.

*_{I'll skip the y's; my read of the words 'woman' and 'man' is not that the former is a derivation of latter, but that the latter is a deficient version of the former (it's true even genetically; a Y chromosome is basically an amputated X.  They stuck the extra bit out front, though ).}


----

I'm having a little trouble really groking this discussion fully, because it's somewhat outside my realm of personal experience.  I'm certainly not disputing ANY of it! (it completely meshes with my pessimistic view of men), but it seems to me that less of this sort of thing happens in my part of the world; it would be considered rude by most Canadian men to openly gawk, I think.  I work in the service industry and I've rarely heard the servers complaining about this sort of thing, but that's not to say it doesn't happen, especially in other socioeconomic circles.

However, it makes me wonder if some of this is more prevalent in America than Canada.  There's usually a strong cultural component in gender interactions.  I'll bet Zono has an interesting perspective from growing up in a different culture, too.  

[pieces o nine]

However, it makes me wonder if some of this is more prevalent in America than Canada.  There's usually a strong cultural component in gender interactions.

Here in Amurka, we go in for Xtremes.   

In this case, Xtreme!PuritanPrudishness rubbing shoulders [or worse!] with Xtreme!LarryFlyntism and Xtreme!Gaia!Wymyn! and Xtreme![mostly white, middle class]MRAs. The only thing we can be certain of is that we're mortally offended by each other...

I'll bet Zono has an interesting perspective from growing up in a different culture, too.

Amongst other cultures represented in the Monastery...   where are people most comfortable?

[Opsa]

It occasionally happens here in the U.S. and is considered to be rude here, too. The problem is what would be the best reaction when it does happen? Ignoring the fact?

I think that women are protective of each other. If I ignore a guy who talks to my boobs I know he will go and do it elsewhere. Do I consider that not my problem? I suppose it is not up to me to try to teach him not to do it.

I was troubled by this news item: Jury acquits Air Force officer accused of groping
A man who once led the Air Force sexual assault response team grabbed a woman's buttocks outside a bar. She punched him several times! (Sorry, but I cheered when I heard this part.) Clearly, she did not approve of the grope. But they let him go. I don't suppose he'll ever try this again, but did she get justice?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The problem judging these kinds of things is that the only view I can personally vouch for is mine, that is, all straight men I know gawk at women, but how discretely or aggressively it's hard to judge, more so because there is certain level of alpha male pride to say how attractive* is so and so.

My wife, sisters, and friends do make comments on the subject, but as with any other perception, negative reactions have more weight than positive ones, which would lend to believe that 98% of males are disgusting animals. On that one is also hard to know how aggressive are the offenders, or how intimidated are the victims because at a glance it would seem that a) it is so common place it doesn't merit frequent comment, and b) it's confronted with detached disgust more than actual intimidation.

Social strata also plays a large role, as most of the complaints are against blue collar working men, which I would attribute more to ingrained politeness in white collar men than the actual intent, which BTW would seem the same in all warm blooded males regardless of class, race, ethnicity, country of origin or even religion. 

On that last comment I would say that while I'm certain that some men are beer away from rapey actions, the majority of men aren't and that many of those who pass for aggressive power players are simply showing how unrefined they are more than evil intent.

*I'm being polite with that adjective.

[Opsa]

Well yeah, most men are marvelous, but what do we women do when we have to deal with those that really aren't so much?

In the above case, the man was an officer. White collar. Even had been on a sexual assault response team, so he really should have known better! What do you think was up with him?

I love his only response, "I love my children". I saw that on the news. That was his one and only comment as the news teams followed him down the sidewalk. What the heck did that have to do with physically fondling a woman's rear end in public and asking her if she liked it? There were witnesses. And they're letting him go. I'm dumbfounded. Apparently all this talk about protecting women from this sort of abuse is just a bunch of hot air.

I'm tellin' ya, some radical bunch of women should go and find this guy, grab his butt and sit it in squarely in a pail of bull droppings while wearing t-shirts that say "I love my children".

No, I don't really mean that. But sometimes it is disappointing to know how little the law actually protects people. Why even go to court if a man who sat on a panel and heard people's grief about being sexually harassed can do such a thing and then go on his merry way?

This is why women get so pissy when men make a public display of staring at their breasts for long periods of time. (NOT just a quick look, people! That can be forgiven.) It really is social aggression to give anyone undue and unwanted attention.

[pieces o nine]

I think that women are protective of each other. If I ignore a guy who talks to my boobs I know he will go and do it elsewhere. Do I consider that not my problem? I suppose it is not up to me to try to teach him not to do it.

I hear you - it can be a tough call.

I worked in an art supply shop in my early 20s. One male artist insisted that I help him and all but laid on the counter in order to get his eyes closer to the objects of his particular fascination. I was horrified and angry, and it never changed. My boss did nothing but laugh nervously at my reaction after artist left each time.

Eventually the one-man boob appreciation society married and brought her in with him. While she was in another part of the shop  he picked right up where he'd left off last visit, laughing and making the usual couple 'jokes' about my obvious discomfort and attempt to stay as far away as possible.  I had had it up to my underwires, sister girlfriends, mmhmmm.

I behaved with unusual courtesy and he probably thought I was on best behavior to avoid *my* attracting the attention of the new wife. Nope. As his sale was concluded she joined him at the counter. I met her eyes, smiled nicely, and said it was nice to meet her. They turned to leave. When they were halfway to the door I turned to boss and said in an exaggeratedly sweet voice, pitched to carry clear *outside*,  I love to wait on that customer.  My boss began laughing extra nervously because this was a bald-faced lie. I added, he is the most considerate man I've ever met,  and boss's eyes began to roll a little as the wife paused and turned to hear my compliments to her hubby. Pretending (not convincingly) that I didn't see them, I said, he apparently thinks I am deaf and the middle button on my blouse is a microphone to my tiny, hidden hearing aids. As a courtesy he always makes sure to get as close as humanly possible to it to insure that I hear him clearly.  Boss was blanching and co-workers were covering smiles. I finished, my voice rising with equal parts fake sweetness and pent-up anger, isn't that the most considerate person we've ever had in the shop? Then I went to the back room.

Co-workers informed me that the wife was livid, and not with me. She hustled a clearly shaken new husband out of the shop by his arm, but they all sensed that it was really by his balls. The couple continued to shop with us, but she *always* accompanied him after that, and he gave his order to whoever was behind the counter instead of hunting me down to harass. When I did wait on them, he kept his eyes on his side of the counter, and the wife and I enjoyed a pleasant exchange. It was great.

I would have lost my job at most places for doing that. But it did enlighten one troglodyte and may have helped his wife wise up to potential cheating, as I had no doubt that 'visual fondling' led easily to 'physical fondling' if/when/whereever he thought he could get away with it.

Remembering this still puts a smile on my face. I bet SiblingC would have liked that story, too...

[Opsa]

Sistah girlfriend, if I could give you more than one hug at once, I would.

[pieces o nine]

This passed  my browser today.  Rush is reacting to this.

If only I had paid more attention to El Rushbo I would have been a better citizen in my young, Liberal adulthood.    


DISCLAIMER:  links to Rush Limbaugh comments which may not be appropriate for work, nor for that matter, human beings in any setting.

[Opsa]

Silly, silly, silly!

Glancing is forgivable. It's openly leering that is creepy.

We do not wish to refuse anyone a freedom. We just want to be free of worrying that some weirdo is going to allow himself to touch us inappropriately.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

This is Rush we're talking about, who in the world takes the drug addicted b@$tard seriously?

(...oh yeah, there are a bunch of weirdos that take him seriously... )

[Opsa]

Well thank goodness you don't, anyway, Zone! 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Of course I agree! I demand my god given right to ogle...

[Opsa]

Hey! Do you think if we wore two mirrors on our chests that the ogley guys would have to look at their olgley faces, and be turned off?

...or would they be so taken with themselves that this would only make matters worse?

[Swatopluk]

You forget that they will only see themselves in those mirrors when it is at the correct angle for them.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Hemispheric mirrors would show their heads in almost any angle, albeit very small, (which would be metaphorically poetic), as to how practical that would be dissuading the offenders that's another matter altogether.