Toadfish Monastery

Quote from: Zan on September 30, 2009, 05:55:24 PM

Quote from: Opsanus tau on September 30, 2009, 05:22:54 PM
Plus, if you want to screw the primates up even more, tell them to acquiesce to an angry God who speaks through only certain human authorities, and threaten them with eternal torture if they dare show even a flicker of disbelief at any time.

Poor primates. 

True, but I had elected to leave religion out of it until I have a better feel for the members here.  Sometimes people take a statement about, say, radical evangelical Christians, and assume it is meant to include ALL Christians.

Some Christians are not very nice people (Westboro Baptist Church, as an extreme example), and some are very nice people (the Nazarenes and the ULC).  Some believe that God is an angry, angry uber-primate who will punish everyone the person in question doesn't like, and some have more...developed beliefs.

Personally, I follow a strict practive of never praying, because frankly I don't know what might happen to be listening.  It MIGHT be Jesus, or it might be something we haven't even had nightmares about yet.

Also, asking divine beings for favors is a folly that can best be demonstrated by reading the story "The Monkey's Paw".

I never said nothin' about Christians.

I was simply using them as an example.  The same statement could apply to Muslims, Zoroastrians, Jews, people who believe in supply-side economics, or even those guys on Easter Island who worshipped big stone heads.

Anyone except the Buddhists.  I don't dislike Buddhists, mind you, but the problem with them is "here today, and here tomorrow", if you catch my drift.

Quote from: beagle on September 30, 2009, 07:50:33 PM
Jacob Bronowski (Zono-like) in the Ascent of Man pointed out the flaws of rural idyll nostalgia; work from dawn to dusk,  female death in childbirth etc.

Indeed.  Much as "primitivists" probably should read Hobbes.

Quote from: Zan on September 30, 2009, 02:53:47 AM
Now, here's the question that all the above screeching leads up to:  Stipulating the above as true, how do you break out of this sort of trap?  We worked ourselves into this mess, there must be a way to work back out of it.

I'm open to suggestions.

Not easy, but keep steps one and two, substitute fresh air, exercise, an appreciation of nature and TASTY* healthy fresh whole food for step three (please, people - health food should not taste 'healthy' - it should taste awesome and FEEL healthy) so that they have the capacity to understand how small and bland the alternatives (food and recreation) are at step three, which largely negates steps four and five.  Make sure to teach them how to prepare (and preferably grow, gather and maybe even slaughter) said tasty healthy fresh whole food.

_{*as in, has flavour elements besides Fat, Salt, Red, Purple, MSG and Artificial Cheese.}

Alternate version of step three also involves learnin' them that they DON'T NEED the toy-of-the-season, bottle/bag/box o' junk food or other consumable nonsense - which is MUCH easier if they are not exposed to TV advertising for hours per day. Emphasize empowerment through saving.  Give them a small allowance, and offer to match every penny they save on an annual basis or towards a major parental-approved purchase (e.g. a new bicycle so they can go get some more fresh air, faster and with more abrasions!). Instill the joys of anticipation and delayed gratification rather than instant satisfaction (hey, might even help their sex lives ).

Steps one and two will promote enough of a buy-in to The System to work their arses off, get an education and get into a decent-paying occupation; the variant of step three will make sure they don't just convert more_earning_power into more_crap. 

Step six, or parts thereof, may be necessary to support the agony of being aware of alternatives yet being strapped down to The System and/or give them the chemically-induced energy necessary to get back on the education ladder when the decent-paying occupation is still not enough to reach Escape Velocity (see Step seven). As an alternative to higher education, consider entrepreneurship based on marketable services (not what YOU love to do, what THEY love to give you money for) without much overhead or infrastructure investment needed, preferably something that can be expanded in a modular fashion.

Step seven: Do enough of what makes you lots of money to reach Escape Velocity (quit doing what makes you lots of money and start doing what you love to do).  This probably isn't retirement from work, but could involve entrepreneurship in a small, funky and semi-profitable way, bamboo farming (that piece of land ain't gonna buy itself in the first place), charcoal production, getting over-educated to the point where someone might actually pay you a reasonable amount of money for not doing much except being educated (research, advisory positions, etc), opening a physical Toadfish Monastery / guesthouse, starting a microbrewery, or all of the above.  Hope you are not past reproductive age, should you wish to reproduce.

Step eight: Fend for yourself until death.

I'll let you know how it works out.... steps 1-6 are no guarantee that you still don't end up with a screwed-up primate, but I haven't seen anything that is in any society, modern or ancient. 

Quote from: beagle on September 30, 2009, 08:27:19 PM
I'm sure she's female.

Kipling was a bit hung up around gender

Quote from: Agujjim on October 01, 2009, 02:08:26 AM
.............an appreciation of nature and TASTY* healthy fresh whole food for step three (please, people - health food should not taste 'healthy' - it should taste awesome and FEEL healthy) ............

It's been tried. But my son asked me to sack the nanny for giving him salad. 

Quote from: Agujjim on October 01, 2009, 02:08:26 AM
Do enough of what makes you lots of money to reach Escape Velocity

Why do I think of black holes with that metaphor?

I just heard they are going to isolate genes for stuff like being good at maths and then build personal school lessons appropriate to the childrens genetic make up.

*was on BBC documentary about twins..... I have no citations, you'll just have to believe me.

Quote from: Griffin NoName on October 01, 2009, 03:40:54 AM

I just heard they are going to isolate genes for stuff like being good at maths and then build personal school lessons appropriate to the childrens genetic make up.

*was on BBC documentary about twins..... I have no citations, you'll just have to believe me.

Ho ho!  This sounds like a veritable tsunami of the law of unintended consequences just waiting to happen.

Quote from: Griffin NoName on October 01, 2009, 03:23:46 AM

Quote from: Agujjim on October 01, 2009, 02:08:26 AM
.............an appreciation of nature and TASTY* healthy fresh whole food for step three (please, people - health food should not taste 'healthy' - it should taste awesome and FEEL healthy) ............

It's been tried. But my son asked me to sack the nanny for giving him salad. 

You're illustrating my point rather dismally.  Salad does not necessarily count as tasty, especially for children (I always took a shine to it, but the amount of dressing most people dump on it misses the point). The lentil dish I'm currently eating probably does count as tasty, and is ridiculously healthy - it's at least 50% veg including onions, garlic, two kinds of squash, LOTS of cabbage although you'd never know it, carrots, peppers, sweet corn, and anything else I saw lying around int he fridge that looked lonely, plus a scrap of beef for flavour and what was left of the berebere I mixed up a couple of weeks ago.  There's probably not enough fat in it, as I was running low on olive oil (unfortunately, eating stuff that makes me feel good causes me to lose weight ).

TASTY requires a fair deal of cooking experience, unfortunately, and more than a fair deal of exposing children to potentially difficult flavours (haven't had to deal with this yet).  But giving all that healthy food some flavour might just help with the natural child aversion to certain vegetables (especially bitter ones).

Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 01, 2009, 03:25:49 AM

Quote from: Agujjim on October 01, 2009, 02:08:26 AM
Do enough of what makes you lots of money to reach Escape Velocity

Why do I think of black holes with that metaphor?

Because it's entirely apt.

This is one of those ideas/scenarios (like eating only game animals to avoid factory farmed meat) that is individually advantageous but not practical across a society (as the suicide rates in certain countries can attest - when everyone is working their asses off, more than a few will end up losing their shit - to paraphrase some whiny little emo band "it ain't a scene it's a motherf&^%in' arms race").  OTOH, the wife attests that the (North) American dream is associated with this continent specifically because most people don't work hard to get ahead, so the bar is set much lower than in some places (probably even more applicable in Canada than the US, due to the small population, laid-back mindset and general complacency).

I'm just stepping in to say I LOVE Aggie's plan. Very thorough.

I wish I was better at the money-gathering, but I am interested in the "do what they love to pay you for" idea. Brilliant. If I could just figure out what that was.

Quote from: Agujjim on October 01, 2009, 05:32:12 AM


Because it's entirely apt.

True.  I'd leave this town, but the gravity is too high and I am left helplessy mashed to the carpet.

Salad is delicious! Even my children think so. You just have to put more things in it, like slivered almonds, dried cranberries, spinach, avocado, cucumber, apples... stuff like that. Then you can dress it with something delicious that you use sparingly, like a lime-basil dressing.

Lettuce and a couple of insipid cherry tomatoes with a listless shred of carrot on top is not a salad.

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 09:25:51 PM
Salad is delicious! Even my children think so. You just have to put more things in it, like slivered almonds, dried cranberries, spinach, avocado, cucumber, apples... stuff like that. Then you can dress it with something delicious that you use sparingly, like a lime-basil dressing.

Lettuce and a couple of insipid cherry tomatoes with a listless shred of carrot on top is not a salad.

My new thing is to steam every different kind of veggie I can find, and mix em all up, no recipe.

That sounds delicious! Do you add any seasonings?

(I like insipid cherry tomato and listless carrot salads!)

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:14:16 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 09:25:51 PM
Salad is delicious! Even my children think so. You just have to put more things in it, like slivered almonds, dried cranberries, spinach, avocado, cucumber, apples... stuff like that. Then you can dress it with something delicious that you use sparingly, like a lime-basil dressing.

Lettuce and a couple of insipid cherry tomatoes with a listless shred of carrot on top is not a salad.

My new thing is to steam every different kind of veggie I can find, and mix em all up, no recipe.

Yum! That's always a good plan. Lately I've been parboiling my veggies in chicken broth with a bit of lime juice, and it's SO GOOD. Especially cauliflower and broccoli.