We're all gonna die!
Well some time, we are. ::)
So how do you view the prospect of your own death?
I'm not looking forward to it, not waiting impatiently, but the prospect doesn't alarm me at all. I just want to finish my work here first, ya know?
Not really, no. I'd rather not have it happen any time soon, but there's no use in worrying about something beyond my control.
I wouldn't say I'm looking forward to dying, but I look at things this way: no matter what I do, death will likely be a fixed quantity. No matter how much fretting and worry I put in now, I won't be able to stop it. So, my choices are:
1. Be all worried and miserable, and die at some point.
2. Try my best to be fulfilled and somewhat happy, and die at some point.
I like option 2 better. ;D
Dying doesn't scare me. However, I would like death to leave me alone for a little while. So far, I've gotten to live the part of life where you bust your butt; I would like to at least live to the part where I reap the benefits of busting my butt if you know what I'm saying.
;D
I intend to live forever, or die in the attempt ... ::):D
I try not to worry at all about death - it is one of the only true democratic processes. In that it comes to everyone, no matter what their life-station.
But, I have thought a great deal about what happens after (if anything). I suppose that is a function of changing from a fundamentalist-theist to a sort-of-agnostic. The process did not happen all at once, but took place over many years, and with much thought and contemplation. And, I'm not done, yet - :)
But, at the heart of the changes, is the Ultimate Question: what happens next when a person dies?
And, whatever your personal view of this will affect your perception of death itself, and your eventual role in it.
Death?
Natural progression.
You live, then you die. Not a big deal, really.
Yeah, it "hangs over my head" all the time. Everybody else's too, though. It's possible that we know in advance the cause of mine, but there are no sure things.
I agree with Woody Allen. I don't mind dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens.
(If I can go without drowning or suffocating, i'm good to go!)
I had a major near miss about 6 years ago when I had a sub arrachnoid heamorage and ended up collapsing at work. At the time One of the proccedures carried out was an angiogram that involved inserting a tube into my leg all the way to my head then injecting a dye into the brain to identify the site of the bleed. I was told that this has a 1/100 chance of causing a stroke.
After being told this I had a lot of lying down time to think about dying and concluded that personally I would not mind all that much but thinking about what it would do to other people is incredibly painful.
I won't go looking to hurry the process up but as peter pan once said "To die will be an awfully big adventure".
I look forward to dying. It's the bit before that which terrifies me as it seems it is likely to be drawn out and painful with no support from loved ones. Though as Chatty says, who knows if it will actually be like that.
I dont believe anything happens after death so my plan to chuckle at my loved ones reactions from on high is just a fantasy. I do hope I have time and energy to arrange a funeral as I want and which will completely bemuse them. My current musical selection is a Yellow Submarine.
I am afraid of dying slowly and painfully. ;D I am looking forward to a good dirt nap. No more stress. No more children throwing you under the bus so they can get their way. I am not bitter about it though. ;D
I don't want to be bedridden like my grandpa was. If I get that way take me out behind the barn. ;D
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
We nearly got the law changed here. But didn't. There's another campaign to bring assisted dying before Parliament again as soon as possible. Most of the public are in favour; the Lords aren't (they probably think there's an Upper House in Heaven) and the medical profession having been all for it suddenly did a U-turn.
I cannot understand why, where there is no hope at all, and extreme disablement, as in for example the last stages of motor nerone disease, we are treated worse than animals and do not have the right to make our own choice.
One argument is the relatives; well my relatives can take a running jump - they never make any decision that benefit me and they are not about to start now. If the only purpose were to be keeping me in a living hell, is to keep them happy, I would regard that as totally abusive.
LOL Mero!
If I could chose between someone wiping my ass, putting a new diaper on me and death I would take the latter. Something like they did in "Soylent Green" would be great.
Curiously, I have no worries about any type of nursing care. It beats animals abandong dying creatures rather than seeing to their needs. Tending the incapacitated seems natural to me and we all have the same basic needs. I tend to lose any feelings I might have about modesty when feeling too ill for that to be any kind of priority.
What I dislike intensely is carers who are crual, badly trained, insensitive, and plainly in the wrong job. I also get incensed by the constant lack of care in weeding out bad and/or abusive carers and the current rise of such people in the UK at present.
Love the "Peter Pan" reference, Goat. I re-read that book last year and some of the lines in it are stunning!
I would prefer not to be in a tormented situation when I go. I guess that's really just a preference for living without torment. I suspect everyone dies about the same way, as in that their bodies just stop. Whether the mind goes on without it is a possibility for adventure.
I had surgery this past week and was impressed with how peaceful it was to relinquish consciousness. I've decided that if death is like that, then it's all right with me.
So far I came closest when a burst appendix was misdiagnosed at 16. The thought didn't bother me much at the time. Don't know if that was stoicism or the assumption of teenagers that they're immortal.
Think I'm actually more scared of getting old, and sometimes think those of my friends who burnt out rather than rusted may have had the right idea.
I think I agree with most folks here. Not a big deal, why fear the inevitable...
I have things to do before I croak, but I'm very curious as to what happens afterward (not rushing to see it though). I want a root beer kegger or something as a wake when I move on, as it were.
See, the root beer kegger is a totally rational idea to me.
Not everybody drinks beer, or even alcohol, but a godo rootbeer is MY idea of Heaven. (Oh, no, now i'm gonna go on a Root 66 hunt again. That's THE BEST root beer on the planet, so far.)
MB, there are decent and caring people that will take care of the feeble and elderly. We just have to hope that they're not all replaced by the totally self-interested ones (like No-Name mentions). Look for a nice Mennonite area, and get in good with the folks there, or maybe the Lutherans. Lutheran Social Services run amazingly nice care facilities, and the Memmonite ones are phenomenal. I'd go Mennonite if i were in the proper part of the country. As it is, I wish I were Czech. The SPJCT retirement home isn't big and new and shiny, but it's lovely, and has absolutely the most caring people working there. Smart Czechs, they make the Church help support it.
I am sure those Mennonites are nice folks but I don't want anybody wiping my ass. I'd rather poke up the seedlings. ;D
Honey, you never know what you'll agree to until you get there.
I was NEVER going to have to be helped in ANY way, because I was capable of helping my own damn self thankyouallverymuch...until I needed it.
When you can make a conscious choice to accept help until you're better, then good, accept help. If you know it'll never get better, there's always the ability to let go. It could be that there was something or someone that needed your grandfather to be there, or something he wanted to accomplish.
It's not like they can take you to the vet and have you put down. Humans are too afraid of death to accept that it's a valid choice as opposed to suffering, whether mental or enotional or to ones dignity. They don't trust an individual to make that choice, and they certainly don't trust others to make that choice for a loved one. (The objection is based on the knowledge in their own black hearts that they'd do is some relatives just to inherit their frickin' cufflink collection...)
Me, i'm learning that you deal with what you can, and don't worry about what's next. It's always MUCH more disgusting than you want to know about. :mrgreen: ;D :mrgreen: ;D :mrgreen:
I could tell by the look on my Grandpa's face he did not want any one doing what they were doing. I am like him in that respect.
You're right I can't just go to the vet. They charge by the pound anyway. That would be prohibitively expensive. ;D
I think if someone is dying and they wanted to die and could not, then the government should have to provide free treatment to those who cannot afford it until the government allows euthanasia. I know my Grandpa wanted to die. He was eat up with cancer. He was in renal failure. I would certainly like to just go.
You're right again though, it's easy to be brave when death isn't staring you in the face.
MB
I agree with what was said about fearing age more than death. Visits to German retirement homes are among the few things that can REALLY depress me; they're absolutely not places where you can await death with a certain dignity.
Happily (?), there is a strong tradition in my family to die in a car crash, so maybe I'll escape charity.
What I'd like is a guarantee that it will be instant and painless and that there is NO afterwards. The idea of not existing anymore poses no problem to me, uncertainty does. What I fear is agony before and that some of the nastier crowds got it right about what happens next.
My only brush with death (by drowning) was at too early an age to have any meaning.
There are a few things I'd like to happen before I go and I do not like the idea that my death would cause pain for others (especially if someone could feel responsible and guilty as a result).
Better keep the "instant death without remorse" pills out of my range :o ;)
Dying doesn't scare me. Outliving my loved ones does.
Death brings mixed feelings to me. On one side the question of an absolute death without an afterlife is mixed in itself: is it a blessing (in the buddhist tradition) to relinquish one's self and stop reincarnation (provided such belief is right) or a sad ending of all the knowledge gathered in one's life?
On the other, if there is an afterlife how is it? Do we come back to 'payback' our karma or there is a place like the proverbial heaven and hell? How is our existence and perception in such place? Better, what is the purpose of existing in such place?
Since I learned about eastern phylosophies I had found some solace in the idea of reincarnation, the idea of death as a part on a bigger circle, now I am not so sure.
A part of me is attached to life as I know it and other feels burdened by it, by those same attachments and instincts.
I guess I am more than agnostic regarding such things; I am agnostic regarding which of those ideas confort me most.
I figure I'll be really shocked or not around to worry about it. ;D
Death, like life, is a crapshoot.
Always try to do what's right (according to your own moral philosophy--and you'll eventually need one if you don't have one in place yet) and hope the dice aren't loaded.
Everything beyond that is windowdressing--- embellishment or wishful thinking.
Quote from: Sibling Chatty on December 27, 2006, 04:42:26 AM
Death, like life, is a crapshoot.
Always try to do what's right (according to your own moral philosophy--and you'll eventually need one if you don't have one in place yet) and hope the dice aren't loaded.
Everything beyond that is windowdressing--- embellishment or wishful thinking.
But, sometimes, the windowdressing is what is most important. Sometimes it's all there is.
To put it another way, sometimes a box of cherry-chocolates is THE most important thing at the moment, 'cause the next thing---- *poit*
We really do not have a garuntee that we'll even be here in 5 minutes.
I gotta say, if Phoenix (the wife) goes first, it will definately be the family tradition of following fast. I know it sounds terrible, but spiritually, we don't have anything against well-prepared suicide.
Unless our kids are kids at the time. Like, right now, we have one, and he's 15.
That's the idea Bob. Do the best you can, enjoy what you have (try not to hurt yourself or someone else getting more, either) and don't worry about "it". Either it is or it isn't.
It all ends eventually. Whether it's total POOF oblivion, or a gentle drift to another reality--we dunno.
That's why you should always eat dessert first. You never know when you'll choke on English peas or brussel sprouts!!
-----------
I would be the last to speak against the choice of leaving when one wishes. I'm rather active in the movement to make that a viable alternative for people that aren't especially comfortable in their remaining existance.
Someone told me that wasn't a very Christian attitude--Silly me, I always thought that ending unbearable suffering was a good thing. Guess it depends on who's ox is getting gored.
As far as I can remember the bible has nothing to say about the topic of suicides as far as "sin" is concerned. There are just a handful mentioned (Saul+Servant, Ahitophel, Judas Ischariot) but/and the act itself is not condemned (the person maybe but not the act).
I think it can only be condemned morally, if it is a purely selfish act that causes unnecessary suffering in others (extreme cases: a bus driver carrying passengers driving over the cliff edge or [and that has definitely happened several times] suicide by gas explosion that takes the house down killing most/all inside).
I do not use 9/11 or kamikaze as examples because those are not "normal" suicides.
But a suicide is a huge weight in the direct family, particularily of children (and I don't necessarily mean small children). They will feel guilt and blame themselves for the act in the process to explain it, and once that happens they will be much more likely to follow the same path at some point.
You don't have to take out a bunch of strangers, the ones you leave behind will suffer for that decision.
---
Assisted suicide in cases of chronic/terminal pain is a different story, but from all the tales of people doing the impossible to keep their parents alive prove that the problem isn't as simple.
IOW make children part of the decision as much as possible.
Quote from: anon1mat0 on December 27, 2006, 01:48:35 PM
But a suicide is a huge weight in the direct family, particularily of children (and I don't necessarily mean small children). ...........
Assisted suicide in cases of chronic/terminal pain is a different story, but from all the tales of people doing the impossible to keep their parents alive prove that the problem isn't as simple.
IOW make children part of the decision as much as possible.
My adult children do not regard any of their actions as having any connection with me or impingement on me. They seem to need to know I exist but beyond that I have no value to them. Why, therefore should I not have the final say over my existence? Is it really the case that by the act of generating new individuals one forfeits rights over one's own life?
No I dont want my children to be part of any decision. They have no comprehension of what I am living with and do not want to have, and actively avoid that knowledge. The argument that it is too painful to have a seriously ill parent doesn't wash with me in terms of awarding them rights. I have struggled a long timew with this and arrived at the Grow Up or Shut Up stage.
Every case is individual.
Hence the 'as much as possible' part. In some cases it will be impossible, but those same cases are the ones to look, precisely because of that refusal. That's when planning ahead is so important (and even that doesn't guarantee it :-[).
Quote from: anon1mat0 on December 27, 2006, 05:30:12 PM
Hence the 'as much as possible' part. In some cases it will be impossible, but those same cases are the ones to look, precisely because of that refusal. That's when planning ahead is so important (and even that doesn't guarantee it :-[).
Yes, that's so, and as much as possible is so hard.
I'm considering being embalmed in a nice rocking chair at the Bates Motel so I can still fulfill the need for my body to be in existence. ::)
The suffering/grief of relatives is of course one thing to consider, if judging a suicide morally. The "taking others with you against their will" is just an extreme case.
The decicion of course should lie with the individual or we will end with Plato's final solution to healthcare (mandatory suicide if unable to go back to work within 3 days*)
* I kid you not, read the "Politeia" and get as disgusted about that old philosopher as I got. [that he promoted the equality of both sexes is not enough to redeem him in my eyes]
Yikes! I'd be dead after more than one bad flu!
Is true that in those days medicine was more in the guesswork realm, but it is a bit harsher than usual.
---
Sounds like the kind of proposals certain individuals (whose affiliation I'll avoid mention) would make provided it wouldn't apply to them...
Quote from: Swatopluk on December 27, 2006, 06:03:53 PMThe "taking others with you against their will" is just an extreme case.
Had a rethink. Perhaps that's a better solution for my sons than the embalming. ::)
I had not seriously given the suicide option much thought, until I read many of Heinlein's older works.
Heinlein's attitude about suicide has shaped mine quite a bit, over the years - a sort of uber-practical, I'm-in-control sort of attitude. In that, an individual has both a right to choice of living OR dying styles. So long as it does not infringe on another's physical safety.
I remember being struck in particular by a scene in Time Enough for Love, by Lazarus Long complaining (he was a very, very old man in the scene, and he hurt. And, he was bone-weary-tired of living.) complaining that his suicide-switch had been removed from his medical support-chair. The implications of that statement went very deep, and I remember pausing in my reading to contemplate them, the first time I read that.
I suppose I still have a practical attitude about it still. If a person is otherwise mentally healthy, and that person decides that terminating his/her life is the next thing on their list of things to do... who are WE to impede such a decision? Moreover, who is the CHURCH to so impede? It flies against the "God will not force God's self upon an individual" theology. On which free will is founded.
I sometimes think it's a purely selfish motive, on the part of society and/or the Church (any church) that makes it illegal or 'Uber-Sin' to suicide. The Church does not wish to loose a contributor to it's cause ... ::)
I understand the quasi-reasoning that is usually proposed by the religious, but I don't think it's very sound doctrine. It's certainly not based in any actual scripture ...
On the gripping hand, I also think that mental health clinics should be free and open to the public. Anytime, anyone should be permitted to check-in for a "mental tune-up", paid for by society at large. It would be HUGELY cheaper in the long run, to handle it like this - just imagine the crises that could have been avoided, if easy mental-health care was available to all? Anonymous, if desired. (I'm thinking of those misguided kids at Columbine as an example.)
After a time, mental-health "checkups" would become the norm, and not have the social stigma it has presently.
And, it would be a good safety-out for those mentally depressed individuals, as an alternative to the easy-suicide option.
But what do _I_ know? <smirk>
We have free public mental health wards here, although you can't just wander in, you generally have to be refered by a doctor or behave in a way that ensures the police or social workers or doctors will stuff you in there anyway. Or a way that will ensure your relatives will talk a doctor into conspiring with a social worker to get you stuffed in there (mostly applies to young men and women).
They are worse than the Victorian Bedlam (see wikipedia). But on paper they offer all the right things. Just it usually never happens and when it does it's useless (inadequate, badly run, etc).
Many people manage to commit suicide in these places as they do in our prisons and so on.
I have two issues with suicide. 1) Who finds the body, how the body is found, and friends and family knowing why. That's the bit that needs planning, care and attention. 2) Is it what the person really wants?
My answer is if someone deals with 1) adequately, then it almost certainly indicates they really intend it and want it. And in that case I believe it is wrong to stop them.
I've spent hours talking to people to keep them alive. Sometimes I've felt I shouldn't be, but I'll go on doing it. If they choose, as one did, to go ahead, I respect it.
The thing I find hard is persuading someone to go into hospital (free !!) because it's the last resort when I know exactly how bad the treatment and experience will be. But again, I still do it.
Mental health is a different issue to unbearable disabling physical illness or dementia in old age. But I believe that sometimes someone who is mentally ill can still make their own choice. I know people living with terrifying mental ill health, who are young and who will never recover; hmmm, actually I wouldn't call it living. That's a tough one.
A very "popular" suicide method is jumping in front of trains entering a station. This contains about everything one can do wrong.
a) it's ineffective because the train is already slow, many survive maimed or die after long agony only
b) the train driver is usually a mental wreck afterwards
c) it's highly public and inspires imitators (proven fact)
d) the line is usually blocked for hours (and those things notoriously happen during rush-hour).
e) it's usually not a prepared action, so many loose threads remain
If someone commits suicide, that person should take care that their affairs are managed, that people not connected to the matter aren't drawn in, that the shock for the finders is minimized (warning signs) and that the method is either fool-proof or there is a backup plan.
There's a lot to be said for the old "accident cleaning a gun". Don't even need to be a terribly good shot, though the family may not be too pleased if you wing the Gainsborough on the way out.
I had thought about it very seriously, once upon a time.*
I also thought that flying through the air sans airplane, would be a cool thing as well.
So, I had decided the best method, was to rent a fast, cool totally inappropriate car, and buy the "total" insurance (making the agent happy, and covering the car for what comes next).
Next, (or maybe previously- order is not critical at this stage) I would locate a lonely mountain road - one with little or no regular traffic.
I would need a very steep drop - hundreds of feet.
Then, I'd rev the car to max speed and drive it over the drop (alone, natch, unless I had a suicidal friend along - but who gets to drive? Naaah. Alone it is.) aka Thelma and Louise. (actually, they unwittingly copied my idea for the movie, even though I had zero contact with the writers of that screen-play) The difference, is that I wouldn't be chased by so many cars. My idea is that the following season, someone would finally notice the car at the bottom of the ravine ...
In this way, I just went "missing" for a season or so to those who knew me, and when they're finally told I'm gone, it's not quite such a shock.
But the real reason I picked this method, is twofold: I get to stick it to a really annoying money-grabbing company by smashing one of their cars (well, this is really secondary, and the insurance covers the $$ anyway) and two: I get to fly in a car. How cool would that be? The quick-crunch at the end would be too fast to perceive, most likely. At any rate, high enough cliff, and it's certain to be fatal.
I think that the drop would be a very cool experience-- literally once in a lifetime. ::)
Anyway, that's how I'd do it-- if I were even remotely inclined to 'exit stage left'.
_______________________________________________
* Edit: I've never been suicidal at all. But, I do have one of those too-neat, you must consider every aspect of everything sorts of minds. And, I also am a firm believer in thinking about the really serious decisions long before you need to actually make them. I used to lecture kids about their decision to or not to engage in sex. I advised them to consider it before they ever got seriously involved with someone. In this way, they can make a decision in the cold light of rational thought--so that when the emotional moment came later (and I assured them it would) they would already have considered all the ramifications beforehand. Then, if they went ahead, they could do so with both eyes open (and hopefully, with better preparedness and protection). But, that is another topic completely. ::) ;D
I have a friend who, when faced with a tough decision chants "sex or death? sex or death?" under her breath. I don't know if it helps. It's just a mantra of hers.
All this is reminding me of the suicide parlour scene in "Soylent Green". The old man dcides to go, checks into the nice place, and watches a pretty movie with nice music as he slips away. That doesn't sound so bad. Plus, they have everything right there to take care of the body. Except in that case, they made it into food for the starving masses. Oh well, waste not, want not.
But seriously, if you could go somewhere with the blessing of your family or not, have people there ready to help you and prepared to cope with your corpse right away, wow. No threat of flying cars falling on innocent campers, no inconvenienced commuters, no gooey walls, and hopefully no surprises.
I love the idea of having everyone screened for mental health. That makes so much sense. Our kids have to have checkups and proper innoculations for school, why can't we throw in emotional maintenance as well? Heaven knows we could use it.
I guess we would also have to work on stigmas about getting mental help, too. Those Columbine boys sure seemed to be asking for help, but would they have accepted it?
Quote from: Opsanus tau on December 28, 2006, 07:32:54 PM
I love the idea of having everyone screened for mental health. That makes so much sense. Our kids have to have checkups and proper innoculations for school, why can't we throw in emotional maintenance as well? Heaven knows we could use it.
The problem is privacy. Your insurance pays for the stuff and your information is on file. At present time I wouldn't go farther than marriage counseling. Who knows where the information of therapy would go and when will it bite you in the @$$.
O_o
Quote from: anon1mat0 on December 27, 2006, 01:48:35 PM
But a suicide is a huge weight in the direct family, particularily of children (and I don't necessarily mean small children). They will feel guilt and blame themselves for the act in the process to explain it, and once that happens they will be much more likely to follow the same path at some point.
Not really, no.
Children raised in an Abrahamic culture where suicide=failure, maybe, but not those raised with the idea of an honorable suicide.
After 13 years (dear gods! now it's almost 14!) with the same person, I can say that I would probably not be capable of functioning if I lost that person after 20 or 30 years.
To lay the type of burden that lack of functioning would encompass upon my family is out of the question.
I honestly don't think all adult partnerships have the type of intermingling of lives I'm speaking of, here, though.
Quote from: anon1mat0 on December 28, 2006, 10:30:52 PMThe problem is privacy. Your insurance pays for the stuff and your information is on file. At present time I wouldn't go farther than marriage counseling. Who knows where the information of therapy would go and when will it bite you in the @$$.
O_o
Privacy may be an issue over whether given a clean bill on mental health or not but if it were always routine to screen, many people would not be given a clean bill of health so it would have less "meaning".
Information as to content of therapy, in the UK, is totally confidential unless there's a risk of endangerment to self or others, for example terrorism - (although plenty of people disclose risk to self or others I doubt a terrorist would!!), or occasionally in court hearings, but even then it is not a simple process obtaining the information. If there is a need to disclose, the client's permission is sought. Therapists are also trained as to note taking and record keeping (ie what is actually commited to paper) with confidentiality in mind too. No one should ever feel they cannot talk to a therpaist for reasons of confidentiality. There has been a tendancy in the UK for people to keep quiet about seeing a therapist but it's becoming so common now that fewer and fewer people keep it a secret. What is more alarmingly still very common is for people to find a therapist without having a clue as to their training or qualification but the "industry" is making waves on that one.
Even when therapy is paid for by the insurer here (unusual) it is still confidential.
We also have a considerable number of charitable organisations which give therapy free or for fees commensurate with income. They would never disclose who their clients are.
The big scare here at present is the Governments attempts to put all our medical records on computer available to anyone who has a legitimate need for it...... they were not even going to ask our permission... now they seem to be saying we can opt out but have to do that before they enter the records... doctors are alarmed because they say their patients will stop telling them things...
:offtopic: sorry :oops:
The problems with central information... on one hand it makes perfect sense that your history file remain on a central repository available for any healthcare provider in case of necessity/emergency, but who else has access to such information, how can it be immediately accessed by an emergency room and impossible to get by anyone else? With the desire to profile prospect employees (or just certain citizens by government agencies) how long will it take to get that information into the wild? If some banks had *accidentally* released private information (and they are supposed to be all about security) how long until medical information is hacked or improperly disclosed, (and checking some companies techniques *cough*hp*cough*, how long for them to pay for such information in the black market)?
Like electronic voting, it is one of those ideas that sounds great off paper but previous elections show that it should remain on paper.
Now on topic...
Kat
Without any intention of judgment, I haven't until now met anyone that -barring assisted suicide- sees a friend or relative's suicide as an honorable exit (may be is just ignorance on my part :oops: ). I have a japanese friend who confronted with the question said that under certain circumstances would consider it as an honorable option for herself. My take is that they may take someone else's suicide stoically, understanding the reasons but quite likely as we say in spanish 'the procession goes on the inside'.
Perhaps to further clarify my position I would say that I see suicide (again barring assisted suicide) as abortion: It is an individual right but one that I much rather see infrequently exercised.
Fortunately we are beyond suicide as a capital crime punishable by death. It always sounded like "if you botch it, the experts will help you, want it or not".
Concerning the car method, I doubt that the insurance would pay. I believe many have an explicit clause concerning this very matter.
There are clauses in insurance for suicide. Your life insurance won't pay if you die sky diving and such. As for the car method just make sure you leave forty feet of skid marks at the end so it doesn't look like you intended to buy the farm.
That reminds me one insurance rep trying to sell life insurance saying enthusiastically "...and it covers suicide after one year!". I asked him if I sounded suicidal and I could *see* his cheeks go red through the phone. :devil: :devil2:
Quote from: anon1mat0 on December 29, 2006, 02:29:36 PM
That reminds me one insurance rep trying to sell life insurance saying enthusiastically "...and it covers suicide after one year!". I asked him if I sounded suicidal and I could *see* his cheeks go red through the phone. :devil: :devil2:
That is too-- funny! I love it!
xxxxxxxxx
As for the skid-marks, that is a very good idea. I could leave them INITIALLY, by a sudden stop-short of the edge. Then, reverse-course, and-- after all, the POINT is that driving the car off the cliff is a once-in-a-lifetime experience ... ::)
Quote from: anon1mat0 on December 29, 2006, 04:46:02 AM
:offtopic: sorry :oops:
The problems with central information... ...
<snip>
... how long until medical information is hacked or improperly disclosed,
<snip>
.......Without any intention of judgment, I haven't until now met anyone that -barring assisted suicide- sees a friend or relative's suicide as an honorable exit (may be is just ignorance on my part :oops: ).
Quote from: Swatopluk on December 29, 2006, 09:34:41 AM
Fortunately we are beyond suicide as a capital crime punishable by death. It always sounded like "if you botch it, the experts will help you, want it or not".
The "topic" was being afraid of dying and we've drifted away from it all over the place. I suppose technically we/I should have hiked mental health, suicide and disclosure of info off into other threads. Anyone want to do that (I'm happy drifting...but have no objection to others preferring not to drift...). ;D
Regarding time and medical repositories being hacked, about 5 minutes. But theft of information happens just as easily via the paper trail - witness UK bank just having discarded account details unshredded. Every good anti-hacking book includes a section on paper.
Regarding honourable exits, most people I know who have been through our mental health services see suicide as a reasonable option for themselves and others. Maybe those I know are peculiar, but it's consistent with every new person I meet via this route. That doesn't mean they aren't shocked or sad when someone goes that way or that they don't try to prevent it. I've been on wards where people who are attempting suicide themselves (actively) have saved someone else by notifying a nurse of an attempt (yes, it's usually other patients that know before the staff do....).
IMO suicide is usually misunderstood and that's what causes family and friends the most grief.
I'm glad it's no longer a capital crime in the UK but isn't it time we updated the honour of falling on one's sword to modern equivalents? ;)
That would require the failed leaders being honorable men. The mute with the silk string looks more appropriate. Or maybe crucifying for those that sell their crap as G*d's will :censored:
Now :offtopic: we are drifting towards capital punishment.
I think suicide is still covered by the "afraid of dying" theme.
Purely to stop the topic drift, the media reports of Saddam's hanging indicated he was not afraid of dying. Of course, they are merely media reports.
People who commit suicide in my experience are not afraid of dying but living. It's the people who are distraught over someone having done so who fear dying. Maybe. Seems to make sense to me. Well, at least it's on topic.
How strange everyone links suicide and fear!
I can think of tons of modern, living, cultures where suicide has no fear associated.
Oh my gods, I just used my anthropology degree for the first time ever. Worst money I ever spent.
(It was a second BA. I have since met no one who has one who doesn't in some form regret it.)
Maybe we should make a distinction between death and dying. The first troubles fewer people than the latter. Many don't fear to be dead but too long a way to reach that.
More than one suicide doesn't happen because the person in question doubts the effectiveness of his/her means to ensure it to be fast and painless (apart from those, whose suicide attempts are actually calls for help).
Quote from: Swatopluk on December 30, 2006, 03:43:03 PM
Maybe we should make a distinction between death and dying. The first troubles fewer people than the latter. Many don't fear to be dead but too long a way to reach that.
More than one suicide doesn't happen because the person in question doubts the effectiveness of his/her means to ensure it to be fast and painless (apart from those, whose suicide attempts are actually calls for help).
I once was called a big meanie because when a man of sound mind complained that assisted suicide wasn't available to him, I pointed out that there was nothing a doctor could do that he could not if he sincerely wished to do so.
This was in response to the claim that it was not laziness that made him need a doctor... because, apparently, doctors have magic powers to kill people we all lack.
I actually encouraged a suicidal teenager to go into some form of medicine because she could kill herself efficiently that way. She's now a psychiatric nurse.
It takes a pretty big level of dedication to have the skills to kill oneself painlessly. Dedication that can range from establishing underworld contacts to becoming a doctor.
In my experience, the ones who go that far to do it are very dedicated to offing themselves, but the vast majority of them, after being dedicated to something, find killing themselves less important once they get there.
Quote from: Outis the Unready on December 30, 2006, 04:48:23 PM
In my experience, the ones who go that far to do it are very dedicated to offing themselves, but the vast majority of them, after being dedicated to something, find killing themselves less important once they get there.
Which reminds me of one of the few just reasons why Religion exists (in my opinion anyway): to provide a great many people with a reason to get out of bed each day.
It seems to be much easier to dedicate one's self to an ethereal or non-corporeal cause than one that is based on things. Moreover, that is often a cause that can never be fully satisfied, ensuring the dedicatee an endless set of goals to pursue.
That many folk dedicate themselves to "secular" causes like medicine (another endless task) world hunger (yet another) or even the Study of The Universe (so far: this seems to be endless as well, both of magnitude and in depth/minute-ness).
I really think that it's the poor slob that has nothing but himself to care for who gets really depressed about living. As Outis pointed out, sometimes all you need to do is point someone in a direction and press "go". ;D They'll find their way ...
I think religion came about from death. I think someone got the bright idea to make up a "happy ending" to the story of Grandpa's death. Something like a parent would tell a child to make them feel better about Grandpa kicking the bucket. The story got better and better from there. Don't most religions deal with what happens after you die? Then the stories move on to where you went and what you did to get there?
Quote from: MentalBlock996 on December 31, 2006, 01:01:19 AM
I think religion came about from death. I think someone got the bright idea to make up a "happy ending" to the story of Grandpa's death. Something like a parent would tell a child to make them feel better about Grandpa kicking the bucket. The story got better and better from there. Don't most religions deal with what happens after you die? Then the stories move on to where you went and what you did to get there?
I think that regardless of weather or not God or Gods exist, that your observation is a very valid one.
Even if there ARE God/Gods, as humans culture and language abilities evolved[from the very primitive proto-humans], so did their explanations of the world around them.
For are not explanations but a key to better understanding?
That religion was born out of grief makes a great deal of sense, as religion has much to say about grief.
Something that science does not deal with well (or at all, actually).
I must say no to that question . I am afraid of dying in vain , of great pain before the release of my spirit but death is a part of life after all .
I say we live forever... in the faces of our children , in the memories of those who love us and in those that will never forget a kindness great or small .
I remember the pastor that my sis sicced on me , the poor man was stuck in the mire of his self righteousness and laughed at me for telling him the truth , that death did not hold me in thrall .
Called me a liar without saying so . Maybe now that he is approaching sixty he has hopefully learned a thing or two about people .
Not to be misunderstood , I love life and all the wondrous denizens of this planet , it is soooo beautiful and curious . I will indeed miss this good earth and grieve at what insecurity and greed has done /is being done to it .
We can hurt Gaia , we can wipe out her children but Gaia will go on until our blue skies are no more , I vote later rather than sooner .
Thankfully the world has the toadfishmonastery , I have a hope that was lost so long ago .
This place and all you lovely folks have even healed the scar on my heart that I thought would never heal . ( I lost my soul mate some time ago and was a zombie on/off for 15 years ) . All is good with the world again.
:halo:
Have come close to the end a few times. Young, dumb and living in Africa? The opportunities are almost endless in their variety. 99.9% of the time, completely oblivious to the danger, find out about it from the older, more experienced folks. "You did WHAT? Don't you know that's poisonous, you idiot..."
Ignorance is bliss. I am very blissful.
Never done the same stupid thing twice, discounting driving a car and getting drunk (not at the same time), but as I said, the opportunities are limitless.
When the time comes, I'd prefer it to be quick, and painless. Who wouldn't? But whatever way it comes, I want to face it with the same dignity and calm as my friend's father. Terminally ill, in constant pain, he never once showed it. When he couldn't carry on working, he stopped. Spent his time in the garden and doing stuff around the house. When he could no longer do that, he stopped. When he reached the end of his capacity to do whatever it was, he simply stopped doing it. No tears, no recriminations, no fuss. And all with a smile on his face, and kind words and good advice for us youngsters. (We were about 10). Settled his affairs, made sure his family was taken care of, died smiling at his wife and kids. One hell of a man.
:pillar: A candle for the man!
Quote from: Bruder Cuzzen on August 02, 2007, 06:18:22 AM
This place and all you lovely folks have even healed the scar on my heart that I thought would never heal . ( I lost my soul mate some time ago and was a zombie on/off for 15 years ) . All is good with the world again.
:halo:
:hug: Glad you're with us!