PZ is NOT Toadfish Material...

[Sibling Chatty]

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/91269/

Hes entitled to his opinion, but a little common decency seems to be beyond his grasp.

And his verbal rudeness is only going to serve to make the "not-Catholic but respectful of others" demographic less willing to listen to him on topics that he's good at.

His language and his attitude certainly have lowered my opinion of him, and I'll leave his name off my list of "rational and well-behaved publicly declared atheists to read" when discussing the whole rational thinker/person of faith topic with people on line. (Yes, as a Christian, I DO point seekers in the non-Christian directions, if that's where their interests lie.)

Unfortunately, my list of atheists is shrinking rapidly...has that kind of rudeness EVER made someone feel positive about themselves? Like they've made an intellectual advancement, or opened a dialogue? No, I doubt it's done a thing except for raising the smugness level to 'obnoxious'.

[Alpaca]

Ooh, rude language aside, that bit asking for a wafer so he can do a damn proper job of desecrating it is a little much.

Auntie, could you post a copy of that reading list?

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/91269/

Hes entitled to his opinion, but a little common decency seems to be beyond his grasp.

And his verbal rudeness is only going to serve to make the "not-Catholic but respectful of others" demographic less willing to listen to him on topics that he's good at.

His language and his attitude certainly have lowered my opinion of him, and I'll leave his name off my list of "rational and well-behaved publicly declared atheists to read" when discussing the whole rational thinker/person of faith topic with people on line. (Yes, as a Christian, I DO point seekers in the non-Christian directions, if that's where their interests lie.)

Unfortunately, my list of atheists is shrinking rapidly...has that kind of rudeness EVER made someone feel positive about themselves? Like they've made an intellectual advancement, or opened a dialogue? No, I doubt it's done a thing except for raising the smugness level to 'obnoxious'.

Actually, aside from the language, I pretty much agree with PZ.

The Catholics went way over the top on this one, and made themselves look extremely foolish.

Not to mention, the assault issue-- there SHOULD have been charges filed by the student-- but who gets punished?  The woman who assaulted the kid?  No-- the KID gets punished instead, and the woman gets painted as some sort of hero....

I immediately flashed on the priest in Les Mesrables, when John stole that candlestick, and the response of the Priest when John was caught.  Now THAT was an example of grace....

But the priest's response to what was basically a prank?  Unconscionable-- he all but called for the kid's death.  He certainly encouraged the extreme behavior the kid suffered as result.   

Way over the top on that one....

[beagle]

I don't know much about PZ Myers and wouldn't remotely claim to be an expert on Judaeo-Christian morality. I'm inclined to agree with Bob though. If the boss of the religion believes in forgiving those who nail him to a tree, then Christians obsessing over a prank with a wafer seems a little off-message.

Auntie, could you post a copy of that reading list?

For an academic dissection of religion by someone from the Arts and Sciences side, who's probably never insulted anyone you might find Jonathan Miller interesting. Here are some quotes from his "Brief History of Disbelief" series,
with references to some historical atheists.

http://www.secularsites.freeuk.com/jonathan_miller_quotes.htm

[Swatopluk]

Interestingly PZ seems not to mention that in the past desecration of the holy wafer was a standard charge against Jews and often used as justification for robbing them of their possessions and burning them on the stake. So, this is "just" a return to traditional values. Now imagine, if the prankster* boy had been a Muslim or a Jew.
Btw, I personally think the wafer to be a (mild) perversion of the original intent**. Get some real bread instead of this barely edible cardboard (some churches actually do)!

*this does not mean that I condone the action. I think it was tasteless 8even more so than the wafer concerned)
**As I have stated elsewhere, the way the wafer has to be treated reminds me of the regulations for radioactive material (see the use of the ostensory, the need to properly desecrate unused wafers before disposal etc.)

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

As a (non practicing? former? educated as?) catholic, I find the whole thing ludicrous. On one hand the fundamentalism displayed is certainly (as Swato pointed out) a return to the 'old values' and it certainly furthers my desire to get away from the church. On that regard I understand the anger of PZ while writing the blog.

OTOH, it would seem to me there is a lack of understanding of what the communion is on all the parties involved.  Yes, the wafer symbolizes the body of Christ, and the church officially considers it in a literal way:

According to the Roman Catholic Church, when the bread and wine are consecrated in the Eucharist, they cease to be bread and wine, and become instead the body and blood of Christ: although the empirical appearances are not changed, the reality is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit who has been called down upon the bread and wine.

Technically, this is a valid case for automatic excommunication (which is logic, the kid cannot be trusted inside the church) and in a way, by not receiving the body of Christ is being condemned unless he repents and ask for forgiveness, particularly in this case to the pope himself.

Now, claiming that the wafer was 'kidnapped' suggests that the Holy Spirit is trapped inside it, something that I would consider as a very silly thing: are you telling me that the Holy Spirit, -the one that came unto the disciples to enlighten them with knowledge- isn't powerful enough to get away from the wafer as soon as it is held by a heathen? Wouldn't that suggest that the priest -by casting the Holy ghost prisoner in the wafer- is really a necromancer? Do they really have that power? IOW and to make it simpler, are you telling me that an omnipotent god is helpless?!?!?!?!

Yes, the priest should be outraged by the desecration, but going beyond by claiming kidnapping he is pretty much diminishing the god he is supposed to serve.

From then on is all idiocy in all levels. PZ should have been more mindful of his words although I totally understand his outrage. And the church... well, just gave me another reason to avoid it.

[Aggie]

Get some perspective, man. IT'S A CRACKER.

IMHO, it's not a cracker to the people it was taken from.

I get a very different impression of the situation reading PZ's blog and reading the original news story.  The original news story makes it seem like a relatively benign situation being overblown (Webster Cook did something a little stupid - if in fact he was just planning to show his buddy the Eucharist - the church leader resorted immediately to physical force rather than discussing the situation - Cook got his back up and started playing the asshat).  PZ's version makes Cook sound like some kind of brave atheist soldier standing up to the Big Bad Church. 

IMHO, PZ is ratcheting up the level of rhetoric and promoting conflict over this minor event, and I'll have to agree that he's NOT Toadfish material.   The event he's writing about is not the issue, it's the way he's writing about it.

[goat starer]

I'm not toadfish material either then. As a lapsed catholic who has eaten my fair share of 'bodies of christ' I can confirm that it is indeed a cracker (wll more a sort of flatcake), and not a very nice one at that. If other people want to believe it is something else then fine but it does not alter the TRUTH. We spend far too much time in this world trying to accomodate lots of peoples different contradictory beliefs and not nearly enough time searching for what is true.

never been much of a one for pandering to other peoples mumbo jumbo. bread is bread, wine is wine - transubstantiation does not exist any more than reincarnation, life after death, UFO's,  miracles, compassionate conservatism, corporate social responsibility or the thousand and one other things that people choose to believe because it is EASIER than making the effort to really understand what is going on.

Probably makes me a terrible toadfish but at heart I am a goat and I am with PZ on this one.

sorry chatty.

love Goat

PS.  As Frank Carson said... "its a cracker!"

and who am i to argue with the legendary Irish comedian. After all he was awarded a Papal Knighthood by the Pope in 1987...

[Aggie]

never been much of a one for pandering to other peoples mumbo jumbo. bread is bread, wine is wine - transubstantiation does not exist any more than reincarnation, life after death, UFO's,  miracles, compassionate conservatism, corporate social responsibility or the thousand and one other things that people choose to believe because it is EASIER than making the effort to really understand what is going on.

Probably makes me a terrible toadfish but at heart I am a goat and I am with PZ on this one.

OTOH Goatie, I've not often heard you call someone a 'demented fuckwit'.

Or seen you go looking for spare communion crackers to publicly desecrate:

Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart.

[goat starer]

true... but I fully understand WHY PZ is so incensed by this. Its hundreds of years since the enlightenment yet we are still having to argue with the religious right over matters of fact and science. When religious people get angry about slights to their beliefs that is our fault for not being inclusive and sensetive enough. Well balls to that. Belief does not trump the truth. Saying I have faith does not make you right. it generally shows you are too stupid and lazy to go and have a proper think about things.

This is why Dawkins and PZ and Wheen and Me and others get so incensed. If you use the intelligence that god blessed us with (that is a joke by the way) then it is blindingly obvious that a cracker is not the son of god and the fact that people still choose to believe this simply holds back human understanding. The fact that we then accord beliefs that are no more credible than those of UFO spotters with all the protections a state can afford and then accuse anyone who challenges them of being intolerant and sacriligeous is simply bizarre.

So if PZ is pissed off by this then I understand it completely. I dont want to go nicking catholics bread and doing things to it - for no better reason than that it lends some credibilty to their preposterous beliefs. I dont desecrate my local bakery either.

[Griffin NoName]

Actually, aside from the language, I pretty much agree with PZ.

Me too. The language is regrettable because the same sentiments could have been expressed less offensively.

It seems to me from what I read that the congregation could just have said a prayer for forgiveness. And that seems to me what a compassionate religion would do.

What intrigues me is what was really going on and why PZ over-reacted.

Only then would I feel able to consider whether he would ever be Toadfish material, because I don't know if this is an aberration of expression and tolerance works both ways.

Get some perspective, man. IT'S A CRACKER.

IMHO, it's not a cracker to the people it was taken from.

Of course. To them it is holy. But that doesn't mean losing perspective.  

I watched a recent documentary on orthodox Judaism and the documentary maker was concerned about where she could put her cup of tea (with milk) down. Apparently the floor was OK but the table wasn't because the family eat off it (complex meat/milk rules). The complications of why it was ok for her to put her milky tea down on a patch of carpet where someone might have previously placed some meat dish were too hard for the family member to explain. OK, she was respectful, but it was impossible not to realise that she had trouble with it.

I wonder about the honesty of silence. If we are thinking this is crazy, but not expressing it, isn't that just as bad? Isn't it just stifling debate?

Is taking something that has special meaning to someone as bad as making physical threats ?

Is atheist expression of disbelief any more or less important than expression of religious belief?

Chatty, PZ was not well-behaved, nor tolerant, in this instance, but he is certainly rational.

[goat starer]

has anyone ever thought that.....

people getting hot under the collar because of the language something is expressed in even when they think the content is right

is not that far removed from

people getting all annoyed about the mistreatment of a loaf?

I for one like a bit of swearing, dogma and grumpiness. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am one of the most pottymouthed people and that I like nothing more than some good dogmatic argument to put the cat among the pigeons. I think its about time atheists became more vocal. We get told we are going to hell, that we are sinful etc by christians all the time. But they dont like it when we describe their beliefs as stupid? give me a break

Cardinal Goat
PZ for Pope Campaign

PS. Griffin. I like the second bit of your message a lot!

[Griffin NoName]

has anyone ever thought that.....

people getting hot under the collar because of the language something is expressed in even when they think the content is right

is not that far removed from

people getting all annoyed about the mistreatment of a loaf?

To some, language is as important as religion

Personally, I think PZ's points would have been better made by using language more effectively     

Which is why I wonder if there's some back story.......

But then there is also the issue of U.S. swearing v. U.K. swearing and where and when it is useful

OTOH Goatie, I've not often heard you call someone a 'demented fuckwit'.

[Aggie]

Is atheist expression of disbelief any more or less important than expression of religious belief?

Thanks Griffin, you've hit exactly what was bothering me on the head.  I consider both equally important, and I admit having extreme contempt for persons in either camp using deliberately inflammatory language towards the "other side". 

Note that the ONLY familiarity with PZ I had to this point was the Friday Cephalopods thread, but based on that single blog post only he comes off as a real dung-flinging chowderhead asshat.  I don't condone  this sort of shit from RRR fuckheads and scumsucker fundie whackjobs, but quite frankly, I concede that people like that are NOT rational and put no weight in their arguments. But damnit, I consider myself in the rational camp (regardless of spiritual or religious affiliation) and I damned well expect better from a professor of science.  I've about had it with all the bitching about the extreme behaviour exhibited by certain members of group X, Y or Z while the person bitching is simultaneously egging them on and potentially driving some of the more moderate or sympathetic members of group X, Y or Z towards the extreme end of the spectrum.  _{(anyone who cares to can edit out the pottymouth above - it's attempting to prove a point in some small way)}

My opinion is that if one is going to uphold rationality, one should act in a rational manner.  Whether the argument is rational or not becomes irrelevant when the argument itself is made to be deliberately inflammatory.  Of course it's PZ'd right to present himself any way he chooses, the post itself isn't rabidly out-of-line (would probably be fine for posting on the FSM forums), and I don't take issue with the content; neither am I concerned whether any of my Siblings agree or disagree with the content (should be obvious, but y'all wouldn't be much fun if we agreed on everything!).  But again, I expect better and since the original post here was focused entirely on the language and attitude, I have to agree with Chatty that this has lowered my (formerly neutral-to-positive) opinion of PZ.

[goat starer]

OTOH Goatie, I've not often heard you call someone a 'demented fuckwit'.

you know another thing I cant help thinking is that if PZ had called astrologers "demented fuckwits" nobody would be jumping up and down about it. To my mind the beliefs of astrologers are as strongly held as those of religious people... and based in the same amount of reality.