PZ is NOT Toadfish Material...

[Griffin NoName]

Is atheist expression of disbelief any more or less important than expression of religious belief?

Thanks Griffin, you've hit exactly what was bothering me on the head.  I consider both equally important, and I admit having extreme contempt for persons in either camp using deliberately inflammatory language towards the "other side". 

OTOH Goatie, I've not often heard you call someone a 'demented fuckwit'.

you know another thing I cant help thinking is that if PZ had called astrologers "demented fuckwits" nobody would be jumping up and down about it. To my mind the beliefs of astrologers are as strongly held as those of religious people... and based in the same amount of reality.

Yes !

My take is that religious people are just as inflammatory, in their application of ideology of dire things happening as a result of non-belief to non-believers (eg. going to hell), as non-believers who use bad language to scoff at religion.

It seems ridiculous that, if someone can tell me I will go to hell and it is ok for them to do so because they are a true believer, I should be considered bad in any way for telling them to fuck off.

Surely the offense is equal? Or non-existent in both cases? Take your pick.

What is it about religion that protects it ?

<end devil's advocate>

[goat starer]

What is it about religion that protects it ?

erm...

THE POWER OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD AND HIS ANGELIC HOSTS!!!!!

and the Swiss Guards at the vatican with their pen knives

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Generally agreeing with Aggie on one side and Griffin on the other, although I want to pass a question:

Do you personally care if some [insert term of contempt here] individual tells you that you are hell bound? Heck, at this point not only I expect it but welcome it, I don't wanna go to whatever heaven they're suppose to go, in fact I see hell as a wonderful place free of fundies.

Then again, no fundie atheists will be there either because they don't believe in heaven or hell...  

[Alpaca]

I still have to agree with Chatty and Aggie here.

Of course the response of the religious fanatics has been ridiculous - I think, personally, that "demented fuckwit" is a perfect way to describe a person who issues a death threat against a kid who stole a cracker (though if I was a university professor I wouldn't go on the record with that phrase). And I think it's lovely that PZ is doing his best to bring attention to religiously-fueled stupidity like this, and I think that more people should go out of their way to highlight the idiocy that religious fanatics and perpetrate.

I don't like it, though, when he goes beyond attacking the fanatics and starts attacking the religion, and further offers to commit more heresy, just to prove how much contempt he has for it. This is precisely the sort of attitude that causes such intolerance towards atheism in this country.

[Aggie]

It seems ridiculous that, if someone can tell me I will go to hell and it is ok for them to do so because they are a true believer, I should be considered bad in any way for telling them to fuck off.

Surely the offense is equal? Or non-existent in both cases? Take your pick.

What is it about religion that protects it ?

<end devil's advocate>

My level of offense at PZ is (I think) largely rooted in his perceived 'leadership' or at least public-eye status.  If it was Joe Nobody Blogger ranting to the blogosphere, it would not bother me in the least. Similarly, I can't stand Dawkins these days.   

Going toe-to-toe with intolerance at the street level doesn't bother me, and open rudeness sometimes deserves open rudeness.  Religion is not a sacred cow, HOWEVER I still perceive a difference between conflict with an individual (whose actions are directly influencing you) and publicly, rudely blasting a group of people as a third party observer.

I also feel strongly that it's the responsibility of the moderates in ANY group to monitor their own extremists, and dismantle them if they cross the line.  PZ doesn't need to be called down for this, it's minor and it's his right of free expression, but if there was a line drawn between "science people" and "religious people", I'd consider myself on the science side of it* - therefore I give myself the authority to jump up and down, rant, scream and disapprove of what I perceive to be misbehaviour by anyone from 'my side', ESPECIALLY if they are in a position to get their misbehaviour on the radar of the 'other side'.  It makes ME look bad personally, eh?  It's not limited to this issue - white supremacists make ME look bad for being white.  Sexists and perpetrators of violence against women make ME look bad for being a man.  George W Bush makes Y'ALL look bad for being Americans. There'd be damned fewer religiously-cloaked extremists if the moderates would take them to task for their hate speech, and I've noticed a lot more permissivity by moderate 'rationals' towards science-cloaked extremists lately, which is doing nothing but forcing a progression of grey tones into black and white.

THAT'S why I'm outraged, not because someone took issue with Catholic beliefs.


_{*although I'd probably be chatting across the line to the exasperated moderates on the other side about the stupidity of drawing the line in the first place.}


PS - caught Zono's post:  No, I don't care - I've been saying I'm headed there for years now.  In such an encounter I'm sure BOTH of us would walk away thinking the other is hopelessly deluded.

[Swatopluk]

Where the whole thing becomes totally ridiculous (imo) is that (according to the follow-up article) there are now armed police guards present during the mass to prevent another abduction of the Body of Christ.

I agree btw on the point of unnecessary rude/inappropriate language.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I agree btw on the point of unnecessary rude/inappropriate language.

Despite being just as bad as Goat when it comes to swearing, as someone said, "Profanity is for inarticulate motherf***ers."
I've always felt that you can get across the same message with either no profanity or strategically placing it. Generally, I find that my tone (of contempt, disgust or whatever appropriate feeling) is more than enough to display my feeling about/towards fundies.

As an ex-Catholic, I suppose I see the offense, but I also hardly think it's necessary to go to those lengths to prevent a repeat--what? re the police going to arrest another idiot that does this? Separation of church and state, ladies and gents.

Generally agreeing with Aggie on one side and Griffin on the other, although I want to pass a question:

Do you personally care if some [insert term of contempt here] individual tells you that you are hell bound?

Actually, I tend to snort and shrug with a, "Mhmmm, and?" I don't get it a lot, despite living amongst scads of fundies since they generally just look at me like I'm crazy and/or contagious and let it go at that.
I've actually spent more time dealing with heathen fundies than Abrahamic ones. I know a Satanist that ripped into a Catholic friend of mine and I ended up telling him to shut the hell up because he A) had no idea what he was talking about (as is frequently the case with fundies), and B) what did it matter to us if he worshiped a dead Jewish carpenter?  What did it matter to him if we either didn't believe in anything or thought Satan was the coolest?
I also agree with Aggie. I think and do act against fundie atheists because it acts against us in the long run and who really wants to deal with any kind of fundie?

[Opsa]

Well said, Scrib! ... if someone is raking a whole group of people over the coals without noticing that each is an individual, then what he is saying is obscene to me, even if his language is clean. None of us are completely alike, even twins have differences. That is why this guy isn't Toadfish material, he lacks the invaluable humbleness necessary to be able to see others on equal terms, even during disagreement. It's a skill, an art!

[beagle]

OTOH Goatie, I've not often heard you call someone a 'demented fuckwit'.

One day Goat and I should publish our private correspondence. Only then will you all realize the depths of visceral hatred that lurk just beneath the serene surface of our calm monastic life. Think Cadfael with WMDs.

It seems ridiculous that, if someone can tell me I will go to hell and it is ok for them to do so because they are a true believer, I should be considered bad in any way for telling them to fuck off.

Surely the offense is equal? Or non-existent in both cases? Take your pick.

You're threatening them directly instead of being an accessory to the acts of your imaginary friend. 

What is it about religion that protects it ?

<end devil's advocate>

Custom and practice, and a long history of wielding power, sacred and profane.

Where the whole thing becomes totally ridiculous (imo) is that (according to the follow-up article) there are now armed police guards present during the mass to prevent another abduction of the Body of Christ.

Does the U.S. have anti-cannibalism laws? I mean either this wafer is or it isn't.

[goat starer]

One day Goat and I should publish our private correspondence. Only then will you all realize the depths of visceral hatred that lurk just beneath the serene surface of our calm monastic life. Think Cadfael with WMDs.

I am saving our correspondance for my memoirs. There is no hatred there... just utter incomprehension (and I still have no idea why you sent me those saucy etchings)

Does the U.S. have anti-cannibalism laws? I mean either this wafer is or it isn't.

does anywhere have anti cannibal laws? I bite my nails 

Seriously though I honestly do not see anything much in PZ's blog that makes him anything other than a pissed off rationalist having a bad day and letting off some steam. We need more profanity and irreverance in this world not less. The first time I read the challenge at the end I thought... "hmmm.. thats a bit steep!" and then I thought no it isn't. If people hold up innanimate objects as items of reverance then they need to be challenged. When people forget that goodness resides in people not in the trappings of their own particular minority belief then they have truly lost their way.

I believe in many of the things that many of the worlds faiths teach. I'm even hapy to call myself a Christian (so long as the christ in question is the marxist philosopher I see when I read the bible). But blind faith insenses me as much as it clearly does PZ. That Cracker cum host is one of the many ways that the catholic church tried to brainwash me as a kid. Frighten children with hell and damnation, reinforce mumbo jumbo with repetition and surround everything with an aura of power. These are tried and tested techniques of the indoctrinator. If peoples irreverance is directed at a loaf that to me symbolises the antethesis of freedom of thought and exploration then frankly I would probably join them.

in the unlikely event that I am wrong and there is a god then i look forward to sitting down over a nice cup af tea and a biscuit and having a good chat with him about how horribly badly some people misinterpreted what is important in the world. If I had made this place I would be sitting up there funing about how a bunch of people managed to turn all of the importrant questions into a charade of icons and symbols that have no relevance to anything. And I would use my mighty powers to make sure that there were a few PZs out there to remind people how the trappings can obscure the meaning.

So I think PZ is a grand toadfish. We all go off on one now and again and on this one I rather suspect (and hope) that almost all of the people here wopuld agree that what is important is what people believe and how they behave. The rest of it is all window dressing.

here endeth the sermon

with apologies

Goat

[Aggie]

Eh, no apologies necessary Goat. Your post is self-evident proof that you are indeed Toadfish material.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

We need more profanity and irreverance in this world not less.

Generally, I agree. But I'm not one for screaming matches with fundies and at least around here, when you take on a fundie and call him/her a fuckwit, it stops being a debate or discussion and all they can focus on is that you insulted them (hlaf the time
I'd rather have a logic discussion that leads them to the proverbial dark side* then a screaming match that cements them further into their ways.
Irreverence, though, that's a hell of a lot of fun and drives them mad without it turning into a fight.

That Cracker cum host is one of the many ways that the catholic church tried to brainwash me as a kid. Frighten children with hell and damnation, reinforce mumbo jumbo with repetition and surround everything with an aura of power. These are tried and tested techniques of the indoctrinator.

Rumble.

*If they're allowed to try to convert us, then I'm certainly allowed to offer them the cookies of rationalism to get them over here.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

then I'm certainly allowed to offer them the cookies of rationalism

And what if they kidnap the cookie (and by extension rationalism)? Or perhaps a well organized method saying that any non-rational person trying to hold the cookie is committing a heresy punished by a trip to Heck? 

[Sibling Chatty]

From Aggie, upthread...

But damnit, I consider myself in the rational camp (regardless of spiritual or religious affiliation) and I damned well expect better from a professor of science.  I've about had it with all the bitching about the extreme behaviour exhibited by certain members of group X, Y or Z while the person bitching is simultaneously egging them on and potentially driving some of the more moderate or sympathetic members of group X, Y or Z towards the extreme end of the spectrum.

That's the problem. I'm in contact with a LOT of people that are nominal "Christians" that DO have questions.

One of them, whom I had suggested PZ's blog to, contacted me after reading that entry. And the story. And researching it.

She was appalled to see such venom, such hatred. An exact quote? "He's acting like some right-wing moron, screaming expletives over some imagined abuse because THIS KID, not HIM, but this dumb kid, did something stupid, and some other stupid people got their panties in a wad."

With most of these folks, I start with science. Alpaca, Eugenie Scott makes the list here, with Evolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction (on Amazon). Then, I send them to rationalathiest.com and tell them that much of Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens is not exactly what they need to read...

Michael Schermer's The Science of Good and Evil, about the morality of non-faith based thinking is a key book. (Thought provoking for those raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition.)

A little Florence King, a little Emma Goldman...it changes depending on the individual and the approach. (Tends to the feminine side, but so do my friends.) I've stopped with the blog suggestions for the time being, because of stuff like this.

A 58 year old, divorced from a minister who cheated on her and abused their children STILL isn't culturally acclimated to be at ease with the kind of rant PZ's done here. Unfortunately, the bogs, which tend to be much more relevant on a day to day basis, also tend to that sort of language. An older Southern gentlewoman is STILL an older Southern gentlewoman, no matter what her intellectual curiosities are.

I'm protective of these people. As they progress from the introjected value systems they were given to one more in line with their feelings and experiences, I don't want them to reject something based on rudeness.
===============

I've got more to say, but I need to rest. Bein' sick sux.

[pieces o nine]

Wow! I found this thread a bit late, but will throw in my 2 communion wafers' worth...

As a recovering Roman Catholic, and as a former candidate for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church  (as a *gack* female  the RC's couldn't even contemplate me!)  I found this story interesting -- and embarrassing -- on several levels.

1. RC's are supposed to believe that the Communion Wafer is, literally -- yet not chemically -- transubstantiated into the Body of Christ. Some do, some do not. (Personally, I thought it was a damned creepy concept when I was preparing for my First Communion way back in 4th grade, and did my best to conceal my Hell-bound Lack of Faith for years).

2. The concept of losing one's mind over the 'insult' of smuggling a host which was otherwise intended to be chewed*, salivated upon, swallowed, subjected to hydrochloric acid in the stomach, passed through the intestines and whatever remnants survive all that excreted into a septic system ... well ...

At least, that was how it was taught way back when, because our mortal hands were too defiled by sin to touch it. Nowadays, it's different. And I could regale all y'all with some *quite* entertaining stories of distributing bread and wine to communicants at the rail under the current guidelines in both the Roman and Anglican Communions. But I cannot imagine a circumstance under which a sane 'Eucharistic Minister' would attempt to wrestle someone to recover a [checks article] kidnapped  host...

[EDIT]  I just remembered this link. At about :43 a priest *is* attempting -- without success or sense -- to retrieve a host, but at least she wasn't trying to 'kidnap' it to show someone else back in the pew... [/EDIT]

3. What is wrong with the Bishop of this diocese? If the local priest is so out in right field, why isn't the Bishop correcting the extremely bizarre theology being disseminated to this congregation?  (Hmmm  -- An Idiot Priest in my college town gave me the courage to literally get up and walk out -- for ten years -- as well.)

4. Any properly educated Catholic knows that the first 'communion' was just bread broken off from a larger loaf, and s/he was probably indoctrinated with Saint-&-Martyr legends about parishioners 'smuggling' it out of the house church to friends or family who were unable to attend. Granted, that doesn't seem to be the case with Mr. Cook, but I'm with the posters here who take a dim view of anyone who piously asserts that an omniscient-omnipotent-omnipresent deity could be 'held hostage' in a cracker. For God's Sake!

5. Bill Donohue is raving lunatic. Why *his* Bishop is unable or unwilling to privately call him in for a little ... counseling ... and/or issue a public statement that Bill is kinda out there as an Army of One is beyond me.

6. The 'armed guards' bit has me confuzzled. That are they going to do, really? Demand that all communicants open their mouths, stick out their tongues, and say aaaaaahmen to *prove* that they swallowed, not spit?

[sorry] 

7. P.Z.: you're entitled to say what you think. And you've taken enough crap from fundamentalists to be cut a little slack. But you're also intelligent enough to realize that ridicule and insult are not the tools of one interested in changing hearts and minds. They are the tools of one preaching to his/her own choir and giving the finger to the opposition. In this case, the opposition seems to be begging for it. Sadly, too many mainstream RC's will knee-jerk fall in line at hearing your gleeful plans to 'desecrate' the cornerstone of their faith, rather than to side with what could have been an eloquent and rational voice against the crazies in their own midst.

8. I *have* a consecrated host, acquired one day when packing a kit to take communion to shut-ins. I brought it home, put in a small metal box, and retained it after deciding that this just wasn't going to be the right path for me. I don't feel that I've 'desecrated' it, nor do I have any plans to do so, although I know plenty of people who would consider its existence a desecration. Every once in awhile I come across it and take a peek, or show it to a non-christian friend who is curious; it's sort of like Schrodinger's Host! Is it still in there or not?

9. Man, am I glad I don't live in that town!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
* There were actually two schools of thought: Chew and Swallow or accidentally-stick-to-roof-of-mouth and slowly, uncomfortably, scrape off with tongue, Dissolve and Swallow. Which one is a worse sin depends on which ancient Dominican nun taught your First Communion Class...