Divine Benevolence

[Griffin NoName]

Someone I know who knows that I have done a lot of spiritual work and study and who works with the Transpersonal as I do, recently asked me "didn't I therefore believe in Divine Benevolence" to which I immediately and instinctively answered No.

I have found I keep turning this over in my mind.

I am always uneasy about any connection between religion and spirituality and the Transpersonal movement rejects Jung's preoccupation with the religious aspect. To me the word Divine seems compromised by religion - but maybe I am worng on this?

As for Benevolence, I can't see any reason to assume any power* should be either benevolent or the opposite.

This therefore raise a few question for me: does "spiritual" imply any of this?

* first define power

[beagle]

[Puts Logical Positivist hat on]

Define Divine Benevolence and how you measure it.

[Takes Logical Positivist hat off]

[Darlica]

I look silly in hats so I prefer glasses...

To me the use of the word divine states that we are talking about something religious or something that once was religion but now are considered mythology (like Fortuna the goddess of fortune and good luck and the counterpart of Greek Tyche)

In Swedish I would instead talk about försynens godhet the benevolence of providence but I don't know if there's a better word for this in English or if is makes any sense at all directly translated like that.

[Griffin NoName]

It makes sense but providence implies something good so I still have a question as to whether spiritual implies providence.

As to measuring Divine Benevolence, I suggest a straw poll on folk's expectations of St Peter as they approach the gates to Heaven.

[Bluenose]

Obviously this all depends upon definitions, but in my mind spirituality and divinity are entirely different things.

As you know, I have no believe in any deity, however, I feel that I have a very deep "spiritual" side, but I suspect that most people would not recognise it as such.

My spirituality comes from my sense of wonder.  I contemplate the universe and our lovely planet and I get a sense of awe.  That feeling that I get when I look upon a baby duckling, or I watch the dawn break over a river.  To me, these are truly spiritual experiences, but they have nothing to do with anything supernatural or divine.  They are entirely products of my own brain, of the sensorium that I have, the sense of the emergent character of being a human.  They are beautiful nevertheless.  They can be terrible too.  all part of the grand tapestry.

It seems to me, that ascribing these feelings to some external force, whether divine or not, diminishes them.  Sure, I can understand how some people might draw that conclusion, but it is not my way of looking at things.

I feel a connection with all the Siblings, does that mean I think we have some sort of supernatural "string" joining us?  No, we have just one way or another tumbled into this little haven of sanity.  That is what binds us, the freedom to be who we are.  The tolerance to accept that our views are not the only views.  If that is spiritual, then I am spiritual, but remember we have made this place.

Hmm, gone a nit off topic.  Oh well, that too is part of my "spirituality"! 

[The Meromorph]

Well I kept thinking "what a wonderfull thinker old Bluenose is!' as I sort of agreed (and learned) from point to point. But I also kept thinking, but everything he calls spirituality, I usually just call joy. 


I think there might be something in that.

[Alpaca]

To me, benevolence is a human attribute. Or, if that's presumptuous, at least an attribute which necessitates consciousness in the entity exhibiting it.

While there's some ambiguity for me about definitions of the universe and its constituent particles, beings, etc as a whole or a network, or an ecosystem or such, I completely unambiguously deny that there's an individual consciousness capable of discrete traits such as benevolence over all of us.

.:Edit for spelling.:.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Just to be an arse  lets talk definitions:

divine: from the 18 definitions found in dictionary.com perhaps the most relevant in this case are:

• of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
• godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
• being a god; being God: a divine person.
• of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.

The only way to avoid a god reference is using the last one, ie: something superhuman, or above our human standard.

As for Benevolence, I can't see any reason to assume any power* should be either benevolent or the opposite.

To me, benevolence is a human attribute. Or, if that's presumptuous, at least an attribute which necessitates consciousness in the entity exhibiting it.

While there's some ambiguity for me about definitions of the universe and its constituent particles, beings, etc as a whole or a network, or an ecosystem or such, I completely unambiguously deny that there's an individual consciousness capable of discreet traits such as benevolence over all of us.

I personally agree with those points of view, in fact, the main definition suggests a 'disposition to do good', and who knows what 'good' means for a godlike/superhuman being. For all we know it could feel that we (humans) should be relieved of our misery and be put down (or it may feed on negative emotions like in so many sci-fi tales, hence keeping us in misery is 'wholesome and good' for him  ).

Seriously speaking, spirituality -to me- is to be understood under philosophy as a metaphysical experience (ie: the philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence). Such approach doesn't require a deity much less an organized system of belief (ie: religion). This would fit with our dearest siblings Bluenose & Mero perfectly.

[Opsa]

Fits me, too. I think of spirituality as being about OUR spirits, not a seperate  "Holy" one.

"Devine Benevolence", however, seems to indicate a something beyond our human selves.

[Griffin NoName]

Thanks for clarifications all of which I agree with.

Now I am wonderng how to address my understanding of spirituality with my friend where it differs from her attachment to Divine Benevolence. My impression is that she does have a belief in goodness finding it's way to "help us" so it is possibly like a sort of alternative religion for her.

[Opsa]

I think it is simply a matter of viewpoint. To some it seems easier to rely on a Parent Figure to guide them to better deceisions that make life easier. To others, it seems preferable to think things out on their own and decide the right thing to do based on personal experience blended with wisdom learned from reliable sources.

The Parent Figure is based on wisdom from reliable sources, so in many cases there is only a fine line between spirituality and Divine Benevolence. Fundamental types might find that hard to believe.

[beagle]

As to measuring Divine Benevolence, I suggest a straw poll on folk's expectations of St Peter as they approach the gates to Heaven.

Anti-aircraft fire, or something resembling Kenny's first trip there in South Park, Bigger, Longer and Uncut.

Besides, if it existed and was benevolent it wouldn't need gates.

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Obviously this all depends upon definitions, but in my mind spirituality and divinity are entirely different things.

As you know, I have no believe in any deity, however, I feel that I have a very deep "spiritual" side, but I suspect that most people would not recognise it as such.

My spirituality comes from my sense of wonder.  I contemplate the universe and our lovely planet and I get a sense of awe.  That feeling that I get when I look upon a baby duckling, or I watch the dawn break over a river.  To me, these are truly spiritual experiences, but they have nothing to do with anything supernatural or divine.  They are entirely products of my own brain, of the sensorium that I have, the sense of the emergent character of being a human.  They are beautiful nevertheless.  They can be terrible too.  all part of the grand tapestry.

It seems to me, that ascribing these feelings to some external force, whether divine or not, diminishes them.  Sure, I can understand how some people might draw that conclusion, but it is not my way of looking at things.

I feel a connection with all the Siblings, does that mean I think we have some sort of supernatural "string" joining us?  No, we have just one way or another tumbled into this little haven of sanity.  That is what binds us, the freedom to be who we are.  The tolerance to accept that our views are not the only views.  If that is spiritual, then I am spiritual, but remember we have made this place.

Hmm, gone a nit off topic.  Oh well, that too is part of my "spirituality"! 

Oi be beggin' ye parrdons , yit thet wuz so wunnerfully writ oi hatta poit et up agin .

[Sibling Chatty]

I'm a strange kind of Christian. I'm not sure that there's such a thing as "divine benevolence" on the part of a Supreme Being.

I DO believe in God, I ALSO believe that he's interested in us in a very "Oh, yeah, I was his math teacher in the 5th grade. What's he been doing the last 20 years?" kinda basis.  And I believe that God WILL listen to 'intercessory prayer' AKA "putting good thoughts and energies out into the Universe"--based, of course, on the actual HONESTY of the prayers, good thoughts, energies, etc. I have more faith in the interest you guys take than I do in the 'prayer lists' of people that don't know me. (The local Methodists, the Lockhart, Texas Baptists, etc., and so on.) Why? It's a matter of HOW much do you care.. What loss would you feel at my exit from the planet? (I promise a soft-shoe shuffle, with a top hat and cane, and a joke or a song...)

Some sweet little Baptist lady in Nowheresville who has a sister that goes to First Baptist Lockhart may pray for me intently. I appreciate it. I covet every thought and prayer. (It's positive energy into "my account".) But she doesn't KNOW me, knows nothing of the things that make me "ME" and is doing her 'duty' because I'm her sister Maudine's best friend Cylestial's daughter's best friend from Howard Payne in 1973. I'm pleased that she cares, and I'm sure that God gets enough 'memos' from the Faithful every day that he's got a bunch of Recording Cherubim on overtime sorting it all out. And at the end of a day, he looks at the totals, and there's the "everybody that's sick" and the "everybody with cancer" and all the divisions, and somewhere in there is me...the "badly behaved, evil tempered person with that weird cancer that gets extremely put out with the Uber-Religious, but does fine with the normal folks".

(Normal. It's a setting on the washer.)

We're all interconnected, because we CARE about one another. There are other people out there that would literally kill to get the level of caring from other human beings that we show across the globe. Is there a 'supreme being' informing that? Probably not. If so,She/He/It's doing a damn LOUSY job of it. Hell, S/H/IT can't even keep it's "followers" under decent control, so I'm not setting it up for any "Intergalactic Efficiency Awards".

I don't believe we're alone. I DO believe that we're much less supervised, by a much more lenient Being/Spirit/Whatevaaahh that most Christians seem to think. That's sorta why I'm self identifying as a Quaker. (Chapel, not Church. There's a difference.)

Any divinity one might perceive in my area is self-inflicted, or it's this stuff.

    * 4 cups granulated sugar
    * 1 cup light (not dark) corn syrup
    * 1 cup water
    * 1/4 tsp salt
    * 3 egg whites (room temperature)
    * 1 cup walnuts or pecans, chopped
    * 1 tsp vanilla
   

Preparation:
Combine sugar, corn syrup, water, and salt in heavy saucepan. Cook and stir over medium heat until mixture starts to boil. Continue cooking until mixture forms soft ball when tested in cold water (or use a themometer). In the mean time, beat egg whites until stiff. Then pour 1/2 cup of syrup over whites, beating fast all the time.

Continue to cook remaining syrup while beating egg whites, until syrup reaches the light crack stage when dropped in cold water (this will happen quickly). Pour remaining syrup over egg white mixture, beating all the while. Continue beating until candy begins to hold its shape. Stir in vanilla and nuts and food coloring. Drop by teaspoonsful onto waxed paper.
Makes 50-60 pieces.

DO NOT MAKE WHEN HUMID OR RAINY. It won't 'hold'.

[Alpaca]

DO NOT MAKE WHEN HUMID OR RAINY. It won't 'hold'.

So I'll have to wait 'till college, because this place is entirely unsuitable for the next few months.