US military spending and the 2nd amendment

[pieces o nine]

I'm in the minority of USA-ans who have never and will never own a firearm



I did take an archery/riflery class in high school. Archery I liked and did well in; riflery I tended to shoot the clip off my target.

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Being Canadian , I'll have to pass on the vote , I never owned a gun , probably never will , I handled one when I was 12 , an empty 38 belonging to my good friends dad , a security guard .
I can't  object to folks owning weapons , I'd be a hypocrite . I am an archer and can bring down any animal this side of the Atlantic with it ( I won't since i needn't kill to eat , people in slaughter houses kill for me ) . I'd hate to give up my archery equipment .

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

ah the great wild west spirit! and a terrible argument I believe. If you create a society that feels the need to anticipate danger and guard against it then you create one that legitimises violence in the minds of a minority.

Again, I think you have cause-and-effect mixed, and possibly backwards.

Take a lesson from history.  During the "wild west" it was quite common for people to openly carry firearms.  No one set out with, "I think I'll become more violent today....let me strap on a gun to facilitate that" in mind.

No, the guns followed the situation:  it was dangerous, and law was where you made it yourself, more often than not.

It may be that the commonality of guns may have drawn things out, but had they not been present in the general population, history would have turned out very differently than it did.  And, I think it would have taken far longer to bring in true civilization and law-and-order than otherwise, for certainly, people who did not follow the law had firearms and used them freely.

As long as there is a remote possibility that I could be harmed by a gun or knife-wielding criminal, I will own a gun for defense.

If you can convince me that a criminal will never, ever invade my home with violent intent, I'll be convinced to give up my gun.  I mean, no knife, no club, no baseball bat, no tire iron, no nothin'. 

Until that day, I'll keep my firearms, for with a gun, I'm a match for any intruder.  But, I'm not all that physical, and me with a club vs him with a club, I'll loose. 

Run away from my home, just to save his life?  No, I'm not that noble-- no one forced him to invade my home; it was his choice to do so.

In your hypothetical society without any handguns, the house invader who is large knows he has the advantage: his club/knife is superior to anything the homeowner may have....

What about all those crimes of passion that are fatal, because a gun was used?   A crime of passion will do what it does.  A person can be killed with other than a gun, if a person is passionate enough.

Why should _I_ and other responsible people be forced to stoop to the level of every single irresponsible individual, just on the chance they might loose control?

No, you definitely have your cause and effect reversed.    Guns do not a violent society make.  They are a symptom of violence already present.

Eliminate the violence-- ensure that people like myself are safe from any sort of home invasion, and I'll gladly give up my home defense personal firearms.

Removing the handguns is like using aspirin for a serious head injury.  Sure, it dulls the pain, but it is not even close to a cure.

[Sibling Chatty]

Why I love shotguns as home protection.

Even the SOUND (via a very good recording) of someone racking a large shotgun will deter break ins.

I'm also not a big fan of a lot of concealed carry. If I am constantly in a dangerous area, screw concealed, I want the weapon out front, so the psychopaths KNOW what's what. When I was a retail store financial manager for a huge waterbed chain, the manager and I always had to make the bank drop late at night. I drove, he rode, with a Glock in hand. We went to the bank, Both got out with matching cases in hand, him with the gut, and went to the drop. One of us had the cash, one had a dummy bag. I dropped mine, took his and dropped it and we left again.

AS we were often carrying up to $80,000 in cash, it wasn't stupid of us, as there had been, in the past, an average of one manager a month robbed, and several had been shot.

When the dual drop with open carry was introduced, the HPD was livid. They were offered the chance to provide us security, or to leave us alone. They chose to leave us alone, especially since a couple of suspects in one of the earlier robberies turned out to be closely related to a patrol cop in that area.

I see an obvious weapon as a deterrent to attack. I have NO problem with non-concealed carry, but I do have some with concealed carry.

There is no magic wand with which to de-gun the US. If there were, criminals would STILL get guns, have guns and use guns, just like they do elsewhere. I prefer a slightly leveled playing field.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Why I love shotguns as home protection.

Even the SOUND (via a very good recording) of someone racking a large shotgun will deter break ins.

I'm also not a big fan of a lot of concealed carry. If I am constantly in a dangerous area, screw concealed, I want the weapon out front, so the psychopaths KNOW what's what. When I was a retail store financial manager for a huge waterbed chain, the manager and I always had to make the bank drop late at night. I drove, he rode, with a Glock in hand. We went to the bank, Both got out with matching cases in hand, him with the gut, and went to the drop. One of us had the cash, one had a dummy bag. I dropped mine, took his and dropped it and we left again.

AS we were often carrying up to $80,000 in cash, it wasn't stupid of us, as there had been, in the past, an average of one manager a month robbed, and several had been shot.

When the dual drop with open carry was introduced, the HPD was livid. They were offered the chance to provide us security, or to leave us alone. They chose to leave us alone, especially since a couple of suspects in one of the earlier robberies turned out to be closely related to a patrol cop in that area.

I see an obvious weapon as a deterrent to attack. I have NO problem with non-concealed carry, but I do have some with concealed carry.

There is no magic wand with which to de-gun the US. If there were, criminals would STILL get guns, have guns and use guns, just like they do elsewhere. I prefer a slightly leveled playing field.

Yup.

If you need a new recording, let me know.

[Griffin NoName]

If you can convince me that a criminal will never, ever invade my home with violent intent, I'll be convinced to give up my gun.  I mean, no knife, no club, no baseball bat, no tire iron, no nothin'. 

There has to be some significant underlying difference in society for you to rate the possibility of intrusion with violent intent as warranting gun bearing.

Most people in the UK do not feel this.

It's that difference that interests me. and sadly according to wiki via Aggie cannot be easily explained

[Pachyderm]

As far as I know, we have had a Police Force for longer than the US. Glasgow had a police force in 1800, and Sir Robert Peel established the Met in London (Metropolitan Police Act 1829), so there were people around whose job it was to protect society, rather than the people being used to sorting it out themselves.

Also, those living in the US frontier states had to contend with various factors which were not applicable in the UK at the time. Dirty big bears, other wild animals, the Native Americans, and a general level of lawlessness higher than in older, more established countries. Many of them had gone to the US to get away from the older, established countries and start afresh. Last thing they want is to settle into a society identical to the ones they left. Not all left voluntarily, increasing the feelings of anger, suspicion and intransigence.

[Aggie]

I'm a bit interested in the differences as well; Canada IMHO is (as usual - see also Comedy) a bit between the UK and US mentality on this one*.  As I've stated before, I'm overall quite happy with Canada's gun laws, except the long-gun registry**.  Please do have a look through the Wiki article on Gun Politics in Canada, which gives a good breakdown and historical background of the laws in place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada

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*¹It's a generalization, but I don't think Canadians have the same desire to carry a handgun for personal defense that Americans do; gun control proposals play well in the cities because the biggest fear is being shot as an innocent bystander in a drive-by or shootout, not being shot as the targeted victim of an assault (similar to Goat's perspective, many urbanites feel that by banning the guns, you'll eliminate the gun danger - Toronto is/was pursuing this).  Personally, I am very supportive of our policy on handguns/restricted firearms, which (IIRC) allows legal use at a certified firing range, properly secured possession at home, and transport in a locked case from one to the other.  This takes care of target / hobby shooters nicely, but doesn't allow for legal street possession:

To purchase a handgun or other restricted firearms, a person must have a restricted licence and be a member of a certified range. To use restricted firearms a person must also obtain long term authorization to transport (LTATT) from their provincial Chief Firearms Officer (CFO) to move the firearm to and from the range. Short term authorization to transport (STATT) is required in most cases to move a firearm from a business to the owner's home, or when the owner wishes to change the address where the firearm is stored. Firearms can be shipped without an STATT by a bonded courier directly to an owner's home.

*²The fear of home invasion is not much of a factor for urban Canadians, but the mentality is still fairly common in rural areas where police response is delayed, and one's neighbours are too far away to witness / assist should a situation arise.  Most rural households are likely to have a long gun for hunting or managing vermin, so protection is a secondary use of what's very much a tool.

**The long-gun registry is one of the reasons I'm not likely to buy a new gun in the near future, even though I'd like to get my PAL and do some hunting (I can borrow guns if needed, and there are plenty of ways to buy a legal but unregistered rifle or shotgun).  If my name was on that list I'd very much fear home invasion BY THE POLICE on the pretext of checking for illegal weapons because I have a legally registered weapon (overly paranoid?  damn skippy, but why give the cops a right to a warrant any time they like?).  In any case, there's small chance of being prosecuted for possession of a non-registered long gun:

8 Provinces have refused to prosecute people for violating the Firearms Act(Registration), these are Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia, Newfoundland, Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut.

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One last quote from Wiki to go out on, re children and guns - yes, there are plenty of places that kids NEED guns in Canada, although it's a fraction of the population:

By law, a potential customer must be 18 years of age or older to purchase a firearm or legally maintain possession of one. Citizens of Canada under the age of 18 but over the age of 12 may procure a Minor's Licence which does not allow them to purchase a firearm but allows them to borrow a firearm unsupervised and purchase ammunition. Children under the age of 12 that are found to need a firearm to hunt or trap may also be awarded the Minor's Licence. This is generally reserved for children in remote locations, primarily aboriginal communities that engage in sustenance hunting.

I got my first real gun for my 10th birthday (a .22 rifle), but I can't recall ever using it without adult supervision.  I had a pellet gun for target shooting. 

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

*²The fear of home invasion is not much of a factor for urban Canadians, but the mentality is still fairly common in rural areas where police response is delayed, and one's neighbours are too far away to witness / assist should a situation arise.  Most rural households are likely to have a long gun for hunting or managing vermin, so protection is a secondary use of what's very much a tool.

There was a spike in home invasions in Toronto around 5-10 years ago.  There still wasn't an outcry for guns.  If having your home broken into by violent criminals is really your worry, I'd rate having a house with a back door as a better means of defense than a handgun, personally.

Still, I've started to mellow a bit on gun ownership.  The biggest thing for me has been martial arts - I'm at the point now where I would feel comfortable having a sword in the house (probably mounted over the fireplace, and probably with a lockable Lexan box around it once we have kids).  I've started to think that there's not much inherent difference between a sword in my hands and a firearm in the hands of someone with the proper level of skill and training.

As a former victim of assault, there's PLENTY of reason for handbag guns.

I'm a pacifist, but if the choice is my body being mutilated or the safety of some jerk with a pocketknife that isn't contented to just rape someone?? I'll take the damn gun, thanks.

I do worry about someone carrying a gun if they're only planning to "scare" an attacker, might hesitate, or haven't been trained in its proper use.  IMO, if a person's not willing or able to use their weapon, they're really just carrying around extra armament to give to their attacker.

Not that I need it anymore. I can now radiate an aura of "I will kill you if you LOOK at me" (in some circumstances) that causes people to choose to cross streets rather than walk on the same sidewalk.

Any time weapons get drawn means risk of harm for all concerned.  If you can avoid the situation, so much the better.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Growing up in a place with high crime rates, where the likelihood of being robbed, or someone try to break into your house is significant and different laws regarding guns over the years I can say that more guns in the hands of citizens do not reduce crime rates but raise the likelihood of deaths by firearm.

I get the case of the farmer where the police is not available, in a retired place where a bear can attack you, etc, but in a city the chance of being attacked/robbed is an order of magnitude lower in the States compared to Colombia; nevertheless there is a disproportionate fear on the subject. Even in bad neighborhoods the presence of the police is way superior and the chances to be robbed/killed are way lower.

Regardless of what you may think of Michael Moore, I believe his conclusion from Bowling from Columbine is right on the money: US citizens are scared to death for no good reason.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

...  If having your home broken into by violent criminals is really your worry, I'd rate having a house with a back door as a better means of defense than a handgun, personally.  ....

What, I'm supposed to leave my home so that the intruder has a free rein rifling through my stuff?

I'm simply not that noble.... and I take personal responsibility for my own safety.   Running out the back door at sounds of intrusion is not an option.

Growing up in a place with high crime rates, where the likelihood of being robbed, or someone try to break into your house is significant and different laws regarding guns over the years I can say that more guns in the hands of citizens do not reduce crime rates but raise the likelihood of deaths by firearm.

So?  As long as the criminals are the one's dying.... so what?   I don't see the problem, really.

....

Like any dangerous tool, I respect my firearms, and practice with them so I am familiar with what they can and cannot do.

The police are not a solution.  The typical response time for police, even through 911/emergency call is 30 minutes.  Most burglaries are less than 10 minutes.   If I'm not there, fine.  If I am there, I do not wish to be eliminated as a possible witness...

As I said, if you can guarantee my safety, I'll give up my self-defense.  The police, at the present level of enforcement, are not a viable guarantee-- they are at best, a reaction to an already-over situation.

[Sibling Chatty]

<<US citizens are scared to death for no good reason.>>

Ever paid attention to what our government says? All the time? It's bred into you in elementary school...

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Don't forget, in Houston, I was what was known as a target. There were/are people that wait outside grocery stores and watch for single women to come out of the store and get into a vehicle with a handicap hang tag or plate, follow them home and--especially with electric garage doors--follow them in. Easy target.
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People in my area still need home protection from some critters...ask the guy down the street that walked into his garage and had a mass of snakes attach themselves to his boot. got a machete off the wall and hacked most of them, took his 32 out of the trunk of the car and shot 4 more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agkistrodon_piscivorus

His wife was bitten by several right after we moved here, and her health was never the same. (She passed away 5 months later.)

Now let's talk about the woman out near the lake who had a 6 foot chain link fence around her yard and saw the feral dogs stalking her baby through the fence... She grabbed the baby and ran toward the house, and was almost cut off by a huge (probably wolf/shepherd hybrid) 'dog' that she managed to beat away with a tiki torch that was by the patio. There are dents a half inch deep in the wood of her back door, and the glass was broken out.

She's learned how to use both the .22's with birdshot and the '44 with buckshot now, but for a huge, thick pelted beast? That might not be enough.

Of course, the local ranchers aren't happy with the stock losses.

There's more than just a "wild west" aura. There's the fact that our populations can be so widespread that a 911 call may take half an hour or more to be responded to. Add in a busy weekend at the lake, or be the 3rd call down the list? Hell, my friend Denise was attacked in her own home by the ex-husband of the previous tenant. He got out of jail for beating her and almost killing one of their children (drunk, with aggression problems), got drunk, went to the place he last know they'd lived and went through the living room window. She got up when she heard the glass break, and...Denise and Michael are both medically fragile. He beat Denise to the ground and was starting to try to kick her when Michael finally knocked him out with my pewter and brass Chinese lamp (4 feet tall, weighs about 60 pounds) and called 911. They had to hit him 3 more times to keep him out for the 43 minutes it took to get someone there.

You'd think that, even drunk, he'd have been able to tell that the 6 foot tall white woman was NOT his 5 foot tall Hispanic wife, but DRUNKS, aggressive drunks, do not respond to logic. Had they been armed, with ANYTHING, the one whack would have been sufficient. A gun held from across the room would have been a deterrent.  As it was, they had to risk giving the guy permanent brain damage. (How you'd tell...I dunno.) But, Michael's an aging hippie...no gun allowed.

Our penal system breeds more and better criminals. We have a need to be afraid at times.

[pieces o nine]

This is a difficult issue. I fully understand all the *sane* arguments for having a gun on the premises -- and my own dad was one of those "I AM the NRA...and I vote!" guys, who always greeted my adult self with a new round of anecdotes and statistics to support his position. 

As a single woman who has lived most of her adult life alone, and not always had a car (due to personal, earth-lovin' choice), I have  known moments of real, existential fear. I know that carrying a concealed weapon when on foot while some car kept circling the dark block I had to pass to get to work or home or to my car, or knowing that there was a firearm in the nightstand when the neighbor's psycho boyfriend was trying to break in to all the apartments probably would have made me feel 'safer'. At the same time, I really don't know if I could pull the trigger when faced with an assailant. I am pessimistic enough to realize that 'self-defense' would not mean diddly in some of the places I've lived, where a jury of my so-called peers would conclude that no decent woman would leave the house anyway, so I must have been asking for it, therefore, it was not self-defense ... and *I* heard she's got liberal, feminazi* ideas! and some debbil-worshippin' pagany books! and is on some kinda medication! so she's clearly a wacko. Fire up Old Sparky!

Legalities aside, I have often pondered on the schizophrenia of indoctrinating the majority of the children with the "Jesus Loves Me Meek and Mild / Turn the Other Cheek / Resist Ye Not Evil" memes on the one hand, and the gun-totin' Red-Blooded Patriot on the other. I can't square these two, no matter how far I've strayed from Mother Church.

I'm now living in the largest and most densely populated city of my life, and weirdly enough, I feel safer here than in some of those small towns. I hope I never reach the stage where I think I need to own a firearm.



* I really hate this insult.

[Sibling Chatty]

The training prepares you to physically be able to fire and not have the weapon taken away.

To my relief, it also gives you the knowledge of WHERE to aim to stop aggression yet protect life. (Ankle, not knee, to protect  the femoral artery, wrists or arms, outside of leg--if you're close enough for a choice. Otherwise, aim for the torso and hope for the best.)

Having been in the position of the car circling the block stopping...with weapons of his own...and laying in wait?? I wish I'd had the gun and the skills then. Coulda saved a couple hundred stitches and a few years of wanting to kill myself.

[Griffin NoName]

I've had the car circling thing too. Never occured to me to think of a gun. I did report it to the police, but only so that it would be on record, knowing they wouldn't solve it as "my" problem, but that it might later help someone else.