Hate-Filled Insanity

[Sibling Chatty]

Having been in the position of burying a family member with religious fanatics wanting to come raise all kinds of nastiness--there is NO reason on the face of the planet that can justify harassing a family at that time. The hate-mongers aren't out for anything but publicity, and they want it at the expense of a family that is already hurting.

The people that wanted to picket my sister's funeral were run off the church property by four cops, brought in to back up an 18 year old girl with a shotgun. Me. When I left to go into the church, the cops stayed there. And when our priest cousin came in his boss's car (he worked for the Archbishop) they left for good.

My sister was one of the last victims of the abortion ban that Roe v Wade ended. There were people there that wanted to further upset my mother. I took a gun, I threatened people, and i'd do it again.

THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFERE IN A PRIVATE FUNERAL OR BURIAL. AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE WITHIN SIGHT OR HEARING OF THE FAMILY. Nobody. Not the Phelps clan, not the RTLers, not ANYBODY.

Death in one's family is difficult enough. Trying to cope with hate-filled idiots is more than anyone should be asked to deal with at that time.

One of the cops asked if I would have shot. My answer was "If they had been able to harass my Mom, yes." I've had lots of years to reflect on that, and my answer is still the same. One would shoot a rabid animal in self and family defense, and until people cease behaving like rabid animals, I won't differentiate. (One reason I do not own a gun.)

There is bound to be a legal way to stop this sort of harassment. Perhaps a TOTAL refusal of the media to cover the Phelps idiocy might do it. Like most rotten brats, if there's no audience, they don't throw the tantrum, because it gets no response.

Deprive them of their audience, and they might not bother.

[anthrobabe]

These people are the reason the Patriot Guard Riders exist. I am a member, and me and my scooter have attended one ride to escort soldiers home from the Airport. What the PGR does is provides security and privacy for families of dead servicemembers. IF the WBC nuts show up, they have a large double row of peaceful bikers with American Flags blocking them from the grieving family.

BTW, is there a toadfish emblem I can put on either my scooter or my helmet? I already have a skull and bones on the front, and an FSM on the helmet. Many of the other riders have asked me about my beliefs. Most of them are Christian, but are good natured guys, as motorcyclists tend to be.

Rest assured, had there been a problem, the local PGR chapter would have mobilized.

Hale to you LibrlabRat!!! I have a brother in the Air National Guard and we stand together!

I am so glad that they stayed away from the funerals-- this just makes me cry-- the insanity fueled hatred cloaked in the name of God- and people ask me why I am agnostic.

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

I am so glad that they stayed away from the funerals-- this just makes me cry-- the insanity fueled hatred cloaked in the name of God- and people ask me why I am agnostic.

To be fair (and speaking as an agnostic/lapsed atheist myself), if you recognize that everything else these people are spouting is garbage, why should you necessarily believe them when they say that they speak for their God?

Personally, I've got lots of problems with faith in general and various religions in particular, but the Phelps clan isn't any kind of barrier to religion for me.  I don't think that their behaviour reflects on anyone but themselves.

[Sibling Chatty]

There are people that are not of a faith background that hold up the Phelps-types as an example of religion. It's their little 'dig' at people.

I'm just pleased that there are also people that see through their acts to the lack of humanity below, and don't judge everybody by the actions of the worst 'claimants' of faith.

[Vita Curator]

Just my two cents.

Being a person of faith I have had people several times in my life say: "It's because of those kinds of people that I am not a believer".

People that espouse this philosophy, not having faith or believing in God because of the actions of some who proclaim their Christianity loudly, vulgarly and yes sometimes profanely need to understand, as Lambi so eloquently phrased it (paraphrasing here)"their behavior does not reflect on anyone but themselves".

Anyone, (including the Phelps clan) can take any verse of scripture and twist it to suit their purpose, but it comes down to just one rule that they, themselves do not follow: The Golden Rule of Christianity.  "Do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you". They have failed to grasp that this basic "Ethic of Reciprocity" applies to EVERY human being, not just those that share their organized religion or particular beliefs.

The version of the bible that I read says this: "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"

They just don't get it.  Even Socrates said: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you."

Pat Robertson said this about the people of Dover following the People v. Dover Area School Board trial re: ID:

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover, if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city, and don't wonder why he hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin, and I'm not saying they will. But if they do, just remember you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, then don't ask for his help, because he might not be there."

But I can take a verse of scripture and quote it also to suit my purpose, scripture that appears to condemn the actions of the Phelps, Robertsons and Falwells of this world:

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
Matthew 7, 15 - 23

Most people who consider themselves a Christian are just hanging out there in middle, at neither end of the spectrum.  They are living life as best as they can and trying to follow "The Ethic of Reciprocity" in their treatment of others.

Don't judge all Christians by the actions of a few.

Sorry if this was disjointed or rambling, I usually do better, but I am very tired tonight, so forgive me.

[anthrobabe]

I understand( I think) what you all mean by behavior only reflecting onesself and they aren't necessarily speaking for God

I'm not agnostic because of anyone except for myself and what I think.

but when people publicly spew vitrol and hatred it does make them look bad and often it makes those they associate with look bad also- not all Christians are bad- in fact most are fine, kind, wonderful, smart awesome human beings-- one bad apple does not necessarily ruin the entire barrel but it can if it is not dug out.

[Bluenose]

My lack of faith is based not on the actions of people like these but rather on philosophical consideration of a basic premise - does the universe have a cause?

I do not believe having faith is a prerequisite for "good works" as in my own experience I find myself working alongside people of faith helping them out in their endeavours.  My family are Roman Catholic and I often participate in their church's activities, such as their annual fete or other things that they do from time to time and am on good terms with the priest and the people in the parish house.  I say this so that you understand that I can differentiate between the reasons why they do the things the they do and the value of those things.  Where I support the aim of their actions I do not see our differing view point on the existence of a god or gods as being any kind of barrier.

However, when it comes to extreme actions by people who claim faith of one kind or another I believe we are dealing with an issue that is only being skirted around here.  One of the problems I have with religion is that it provides a frame work around which the deluded can construct some truly monstrous things.  The problem is what I call "magical thinking".  Because religion requires belief in things which cannot be pr oven in any objective sense, it opens the door to those who are vulnerable to believe all sorts of things.  The ID crowd are a relatively benign variety of this animal, but those who wanted to interfere with those poor people grieving for their murdered children are a somewhat more aggressive form.  There is a continuum going from these sorts of things leading right up to suicide bombers who have been convinced that their path to paradise lies in killing themselves and others - again, magical thinking.

I know that many good things are done by people of faith and I support that work, however many many horrible things have been done over the centuries by people who believed that they were doing their god's work.  When religion goes bad it goes really bad.  I am far from convinced that the overall balance is positive.  I just hope that moderate voices prevail in the places where religion is being used to justify wrong actions.  History shows us, unfortunately, that this may be a forlorn hope.

I think that places like this where we can speak about these things with people of all backgrounds and belief structures are a new thing and a good one.  Perhaps  we can learn how to have our differences  without feeling threatened by those who are different.  If enough people can do this then we really can change the world.  The thing is, we should not set out to change the world, just ourselves.

Nick

[Griffin NoName]

I was thinking along the same lines Nick just posted, then saw his post - said so much better than I could.

To add to what Nick has said - my thoughts:

Faith has to be an individual choice. The problems creep in when it becomes systemic.

Given the current ID scenario, I find myself reflecting that Faith has produced so many evil acts but Science has not. All Scientists believe in Science but they don't murder themselves or others because of differences - or if they do it's not talked about much in the public domain! I'm having fantasies of the string-theorists as a marauding horde fighting to eliminate those who no longer believe string theory is the answer to everything. Ok, it's a joke, but as we know jokes can highlight the important aspects of an issue. 

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

Given the current ID scenario, I find myself reflecting that Faith has produced so many evil acts but Science has not. 

I wouldn't say that.  I think that there are plenty of examples of science producing things that are evil: off the top of my head, there's social darwinism, mustard gas and nuclear weapons... all of these can be considered to be "perversions" of science, but I'd say they're no more perverted than using a religion that preaches peace and love to incite violence and hate.

Personally, I think that things like "faith" and "science" are tools that people will use to reach whatever ends suit them, and their products will reflect the motives of the person using them.

[anthrobabe]

Given the current ID scenario, I find myself reflecting that Faith has produced so many evil acts but Science has not. 

I wouldn't say that.  I think that there are plenty of examples of science producing things that are evil: off the top of my head, there's social darwinism, mustard gas and nuclear weapons... all of these can be considered to be "perversions" of science, but I'd say they're no more perverted than using a religion that preaches peace and love to incite violence and hate.

Personally, I think that things like "faith" and "science" are tools that people will use to reach whatever ends suit them, and their products will reflect the motives of the person using them.

I wish I was as eloquent... pretty much my thoughts

[Opsa]

Thank you, thank you, especially Bluenose, for talking about this here.

I would really like to establish the HOT Monastery as a place where people are encouraged to think for themselves and decide what is right and wrong without being led as if they have no minds of their own.

I want to synthesize what is really wonderful about spirituality and rip out all the crummy junk. Manipulation is in no way spiritual! How can we make that idea clear without offending other religions?

[Sibling Chatty]

Have you read Jimmy Carter's Our Endangered Values?

Yes, it's written from his perspective, as a Christian. But it's not a proseelytization, nor does it claim moral highground for Christianity. Much to the contrary, he takes the 'typical' modern Christian to task over their failure to follow the Biblical precepts they purport to claim.

EXCELLENT book, and quite in the same line of thought espoused here, but in more wonderful written style, and with a wealth of knowledge that one could never obtain without having been who he has been and where he has been.

It's a fairly new book, so it might be a stretch financially for some people to come up with the $25 to buy it. Because a dear and loving friend sent it to me, it is precious to me, and because my Toadfish Bretheren (and Sisteren) are also dear to me, I will share it by mail, as I know I will get it back. PM me if you'd like to read it.

I think the book will present one part of the path to "Why we believe what we believe, although our faiths or philosophies are all different."

[Aphos]

Have you read Jimmy Carter's Our Endangered Values?

Yes, I have read it, and I agree, it is a great book.

An alternative to buying it is to go to your local library.  If they don't have it, request it on inter-library loan.  That is how I got a hold of it.

[Sibling Chatty]

I forget that other people have libraries in their communities.

We have a committee, have had for 10 years, but no library. They're a great social group, but they're not much on getting stuff done.

Were it not for the kindness of friends (some with cute knees ) I would be bookless at times. If i'd known there wasn't a library here, I am not sure we'd have bought the house.

1,200 people out of a county of 17,000. And no library. 

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

For all it's faults (being in the middle of the Bible Belt*, being firmly in the back-pocket of the repubs, to name two) Tulsa County, in Oklahoma IS one of the more progressive, when it comes to reading.  The Tulsa County Library system is considered one of the better in the country, according to what I've heard. 

As for me, I grew up under it' benefits -- AND fortunate enough to have had GOOD librarians in Junior High and High School.  By the time I got to college, I had the wherewithall to purchase my own books.


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* nothing wrong with the Bible Belt, per-se.  It's just the hard-headed "do it MY way or else" types that seem to be the majority hereabouts