How Do We Re-Balance America?

[pieces o nine]

I was demonstrating the necessary level of language profligacy. One can't expect prefection.

I couldn't resist.   

Also, I think I'm going to ask Xtreme! rightwing friends if their preferred candidates (profligate or not!) are fluid in any other languages, and keep an informal tally of the responses...   

[Swatopluk]

The impression I got from the last decade is that the RW fringe has essentially the same position on foreign languages and travel as the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao. To be able to speak a foreign language or to have been abroad unless on official duty is akin to treason and or at least raises massive doubts about a person's loyalty, patriotism, political reliability etc.
Should that foreign language be Arabic, you are also definitely a Muslim, i.e. a terrorist and very likely gay. Speaking Spanish on US soil is a sufficient reason for immediate deportation any proof of citizenship notwithstanding (it's most likely a fake anyway).
Knowledge of French marks one as a weakling that could never be entrusted with a position of authority.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

That seriously depends on the area - I imagine that that might be the case in in some places but it's definitely not the norm. Where I live, it's a disadvantage NOT to speak at least some Spanish and pretty much everyone does. From what I've seen, this applies across the South West and probably does in any place with a large Latin population. French is considered froufrou, pretentious, and useless. Though you're sorta right when it comes to speakers of Arabic or any other language associated with Muslim countries. If you're male and brown, they will be suspicious (because women and white people are incapable of being terrorists, of course).

But, some other languages are looked at as being cool, like German and Russian (I suspect this is because every Right winger in the US has a crush on Putin).

[Swatopluk]

Of course it's an over-generalization but I specifically said 'fringe'.
German and Russian were what Arabic is today.

[Aggie]

The impression I got from the last decade is that the RW fringe has essentially the same position on foreign languages and travel as the Soviet Union under Stalin and China under Mao. To be able to speak a foreign language or to have been abroad unless on official duty is akin to treason and or at least raises massive doubts about a person's loyalty, patriotism, political reliability etc.

It's hardly just the right-wing fringe up here (although some would call our Conservative party the fringe element; they are right but not extremists).  Michael Ignatieff (leader of the Liberal party, our Democrat analogue) has been frequently lambasted for the heinous crime of living in America.  Here's one of the latest attack ads:

[youtube=425,350]LaqNxU2Ea6w[/youtube]

[pieces o nine]

* hisses at video *

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Of course it's an over-generalization but I specifically said 'fringe'.
German and Russian were what Arabic is today.

Comprehension fail on my part.

[Swatopluk]

Of course it's an over-generalization but I specifically said 'fringe'.
German and Russian were what Arabic is today.

Comprehension fail on my part.

The Germans and then the Russians were the mortal (and for many literally infernal) enemy in the past. To have anything to do with them (like speaking their language) could make one the target of attacks. To have visited Moscow other than on state duty could also be sufficient to be 'unmasked' as a commie.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

We go back to "the other". I understand the argument for integration and learning the local language etc, but the speech against other languages is frequently indistinguishable from the speech against "the other", be it Spanish, Arabic, French, Russian, or any of the languages those people speak.

Again the percentage of the population that expresses those ideas is not the absolute majority (to my knowledge) but I have heard it in many ways even from people that consider themselves 'progressives'.

Us vs Them seems to be deeply ingrained in the human psyche and all the hate-speech we hear nowadays only worsens the situation.

[pieces o nine]

I can no longer cite the source or even the state in which the meeting occurred re: fallout from a board member angrily insisting that there should be *no* books in the library that he couldn't read.

The purpose of his outburst was to further inflame grassroots support for ousting all Spanish or English/Spanish materials, but it also earned him ridicule as to whether he wanted Greek and Latin classics purged (not to mention texts used by Biblical scholars, *COUGH*  *COUGH*   and whether his understanding was the community-wide limiting factor for Maths, Sciences, History, Literature, etc etc etc.

It does seem that some form of 'Us' vs 'Them' is hard-wired into us; however, liberal times/leaders break down barriers to include greater diversity and numbers identifying as 'Us'. Conservative times/leaders rebuild retractable barriers to 'purify' the 'Us' and to escalate both real and imagined threats from 'Them'.

[Aggie]

It does seem that some form of 'Us' vs 'Them' is hard-wired into us; however, liberal times/leaders break down barriers to include greater diversity and numbers identifying as 'Us'. Conservative times/leaders rebuild retractable barriers to 'purify' the 'Us' and to escalate both real and imagined threats from 'Them'.

It's possible to make multiculturalism and tolerance of differences a national point of pride, but it takes some serious propaganda public-education campaigns on the part of the government.  In Canada, multiculturalism is enshrined in law as the Canadian Multiculturalism Act.  Some of the text is quite remarkable:

3. (1) It is hereby declared to be the policy of the Government of Canada to:
-----
(b) recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism is a fundamental characteristic of the Canadian heritage and identity and that it provides an invaluable resource in the shaping of Canada's future;
-----
(d) recognize the existence of communities whose members share a common origin and their historic contribution to Canadian society, and enhance their development;
-----
(g) promote the understanding and creativity that arise from the interaction between individuals and communities of different origins;
(h) foster the recognition and appreciation of the diverse cultures of Canadian society and promote the reflection and the evolving expressions of those cultures;

5. (1) The Minister shall take such measures as the Minister considers appropriate to implement the multiculturalism policy of Canada and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, may:
-----
(c) encourage and promote exchanges and cooperation among the diverse communities of Canada;
-----
(f) facilitate the acquisition, retention and use of all languages that contribute to the multicultural heritage of Canada;
(g) assist ethno-cultural minority communities to conduct activities with a view to overcoming any discriminatory barrier and, in particular, discrimination based on race or national or ethnic origin;

Canada's current day tolerance relative to the US is based largely on this policy; it's been in place for most of my life so I can't honestly comment on the historical basis for it. 

I think it may take this kind of official policy and open promotion of accepting differences to reduce divisions in a society.  If you can accept and regard with warm tolerance your neighbour who sounds, looks, eats and worships differently than you, it's hard to get too worked up over something small like who they voted for. 

Contrariwise, the level of political venom in America is positively scary when you extrapolate it to inter-racial or interfaith relations - if you can't even find common ground between two rich white men in suits, how with the rest get along?


There should be no doubts that racism and anti-immigrant sentiment exists in Canada, but the worst of it tends to occur where the least interaction happens between Them and Us, and tends to be quite rare (or at least not overt) in well-diversified urban centres.  Cowtown is presumably the most redneck metropolis in Canada, but the last time the local white supremacists held a demonstration, the police had to step in to protect them from the much larger group of anti-racist counter-protesters.  We also just elected a Muslim mayor, FWIW.

While there are some insular communities in larger cities (for example, the Sikh and Chinese communities in Greater Vancouver)in which some members probably remain relatively non-integrated over a generation or two, I'd wager that the overall acceptance of multiculturalism actually breaks down barriers and serves to thoroughly Canadianize immigrants and/or their children. "Be Canadian" does not have the same connotations of assimilation and down-toning of cultural identity that "Be American" does.


However, there is a also negative side to Canadian tolerance; IMHO it breeds a reluctance to help others in need.  We as a society seem to largely take both a live-and-let-live and a live-and-let-die attitude; we are accepting of people's differences but also of their follies, and are disinclined to personally offer a hand up when those follies take someone down (we are better with the nebulous concept of a social safety net, but I think most prefer to think of it as being used by folks who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own).  Many Western Canadian families (prairies eastward) are relatively recent immigrants - say, 4 generations or less - and are aware that their grandparents or great-grandparents struggled when they came to Canada; I suspect this breeds both an acceptance of new immigrants but also the normalization of the idea that first-generation immigrants should be expected to take menial jobs and be content with just scraping by.

More shameful is the widespread racist attitude towards Canada's First Nations peoples, in direct contrast to relative tolerance towards immigrants.  Aboriginal people face deeply ingrained stereotypes, and I would wager that most successful, urban aboriginals are often assumed to be of an entirely different ethnic background.  Native people in Canada fared somewhat better during colonization than in the the US, but have probably fared worse* in recent history due to vile official policies of assimilation up until recent memory (1969). 
_{*I don't know much about the US situation}

I really don't know what to say about this...  it's an attitude of denigration, it's extremely widespread, and I would not at all be surprised to learn that newcomers to Canada are picking it up.  Most First Nations people in Western Canada (I can't speak for central/Eastern Canada, and aboriginal cultures are quite different out there in any case) live in northern communities and frequently on reserve, so some of this is due to lack of interaction with a typical native population. The stereotypes I'm talking about are largely formed or confirmed for most city dwellers by their interaction with homeless aboriginals in cities; this is as futile and stupid of trying to stereotype whites as all being similar to the homeless white people you've run into.   

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I'm feeling rather cynical right now. We're not going to find a balance. It's going to be like various empires in the past - a patch here, a patch there, until the whole structure flies apart in hail of spinning shrapnel. Asia (China and India) will snap into place as the next major economic powers and as the US folds in on itself, we'll either find an excuse to go to war somewhere else OR we'll be too focused on our own shit to do anything. Terrorism might still be directed at us for a while, even after we pull out of the Middle East, until they find someone more interesting to attack, or there will be a halt accompanied by various asshole videos from terrorist organizations, informing us that they have beat the Great Satan and killing Americans is now boring. Israel might be fucked, as they would be surrounded on three sides by unfriendly folk.

It does seem that some form of 'Us' vs 'Them' is hard-wired into us; however, liberal times/leaders break down barriers to include greater diversity and numbers identifying as 'Us'. Conservative times/leaders rebuild retractable barriers to 'purify' the 'Us' and to escalate both real and imagined threats from 'Them'.

It's possible to make multiculturalism and tolerance of differences a national point of pride, but it takes some serious propaganda public-education campaigns on the part of the government.  In Canada, multiculturalism is enshrined in law as the Canadian Multiculturalism Act.  Some of the text is quite remarkable:

3. (1) It is hereby declared to be the policy of the Government of Canada to:
-----
(b) recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism is a fundamental characteristic of the Canadian heritage and identity and that it provides an invaluable resource in the shaping of Canada's future;
-----
(d) recognize the existence of communities whose members share a common origin and their historic contribution to Canadian society, and enhance their development;
-----
(g) promote the understanding and creativity that arise from the interaction between individuals and communities of different origins;
(h) foster the recognition and appreciation of the diverse cultures of Canadian society and promote the reflection and the evolving expressions of those cultures;

5. (1) The Minister shall take such measures as the Minister considers appropriate to implement the multiculturalism policy of Canada and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, may:
-----
(c) encourage and promote exchanges and cooperation among the diverse communities of Canada;
-----
(f) facilitate the acquisition, retention and use of all languages that contribute to the multicultural heritage of Canada;
(g) assist ethno-cultural minority communities to conduct activities with a view to overcoming any discriminatory barrier and, in particular, discrimination based on race or national or ethnic origin;

Canada's current day tolerance relative to the US is based largely on this policy; it's been in place for most of my life so I can't honestly comment on the historical basis for it. 

I think it may take this kind of official policy and open promotion of accepting differences to reduce divisions in a society.  If you can accept and regard with warm tolerance your neighbour who sounds, looks, eats and worships differently than you, it's hard to get too worked up over something small like who they voted for. 

Contrariwise, the level of political venom in America is positively scary when you extrapolate it to inter-racial or interfaith relations - if you can't even find common ground between two rich white men in suits, how with the rest get along?


There should be no doubts that racism and anti-immigrant sentiment exists in Canada, but the worst of it tends to occur where the least interaction happens between Them and Us, and tends to be quite rare (or at least not overt) in well-diversified urban centres.  Cowtown is presumably the most redneck metropolis in Canada, but the last time the local white supremacists held a demonstration, the police had to step in to protect them from the much larger group of anti-racist counter-protesters.  We also just elected a Muslim mayor, FWIW.

While there are some insular communities in larger cities (for example, the Sikh and Chinese communities in Greater Vancouver)in which some members probably remain relatively non-integrated over a generation or two, I'd wager that the overall acceptance of multiculturalism actually breaks down barriers and serves to thoroughly Canadianize immigrants and/or their children. "Be Canadian" does not have the same connotations of assimilation and down-toning of cultural identity that "Be American" does.


However, there is a also negative side to Canadian tolerance; IMHO it breeds a reluctance to help others in need.  We as a society seem to largely take both a live-and-let-live and a live-and-let-die attitude; we are accepting of people's differences but also of their follies, and are disinclined to personally offer a hand up when those follies take someone down (we are better with the nebulous concept of a social safety net, but I think most prefer to think of it as being used by folks who have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own).  Many Western Canadian families (prairies eastward) are relatively recent immigrants - say, 4 generations or less - and are aware that their grandparents or great-grandparents struggled when they came to Canada; I suspect this breeds both an acceptance of new immigrants but also the normalization of the idea that first-generation immigrants should be expected to take menial jobs and be content with just scraping by.

More shameful is the widespread racist attitude towards Canada's First Nations peoples, in direct contrast to relative tolerance towards immigrants.  Aboriginal people face deeply ingrained stereotypes, and I would wager that most successful, urban aboriginals are often assumed to be of an entirely different ethnic background.  Native people in Canada fared somewhat better during colonization than in the the US, but have probably fared worse* in recent history due to vile official policies of assimilation up until recent memory (1969). 
_{*I don't know much about the US situation}

I really don't know what to say about this...  it's an attitude of denigration, it's extremely widespread, and I would not at all be surprised to learn that newcomers to Canada are picking it up.  Most First Nations people in Western Canada (I can't speak for central/Eastern Canada, and aboriginal cultures are quite different out there in any case) live in northern communities and frequently on reserve, so some of this is due to lack of interaction with a typical native population. The stereotypes I'm talking about are largely formed or confirmed for most city dwellers by their interaction with homeless aboriginals in cities; this is as futile and stupid of trying to stereotype whites as all being similar to the homeless white people you've run into.   

What a thing to form an attitude on. I would make a point of returning the favor, if I saw a white person doing it. "Hello, you act like a babbling racist bearded bag lady I saw yesterday, so I'm going to be eeeeextra condescending. "

[Aggie]

It's revolting, but this is less a personally held stereotype and more a culturally held stereotype; the alternate stereotype is that First Nations people are freeloaders on the Canadian taxpayer and live well without working, which is also deeply untrue.  Conditions on reserve are often pretty bad, education and health care are substandard*, and unemployment is high.  Bands do receive significant funding, but this is often poorly managed by chiefs and/or councils - some pay themselves more than the Prime Minister of Canada makes (made headlines this year, but likely not the norm).  There is deliberate opaqueness built into the system, so it's impossible for the average on-reserve band member to see what the money was actually spent on unless the band council is willing to publish the numbers.

There are certainly some success stories, but from what I can tell these are in the minority, and even the more successful bands still deal with significant social issues.  

_{*these are usually provincially administrated, but "Indian Affairs" are federal jurisdiction, so on-reserve native people cannot access the usual provincial systems and generally must set up their own parallel institutions - which explains where much of the funding goes.  Imagine trying to set up a decent medical and education system at any price for a band of a few hundred people, hundreds of miles from the nearest town.  At the extreme, I've heard of families having to give sick children up to foster parents in order to get proper medical treatment for them.}


I challenge my father constantly on this second type of stereotype.  If you don't hold the revolting and simplistic first stereotype of the disfunctional native, you likely hold the second, more insidious stereotype of the crafty freeloader.

Small-towners in areas with significant off-reserve native populations (most northern towns, some are majority native) may have a more balanced view because they actually interact with native people on a daily basis, although I wouldn't rule out a significant amount of Us-vs-Them-ism.

[Opsa]

Native Americans in the U.S. reservations in general live pretty much the same way as up in Canada. From what I understand, they went through (and are still going through to some extent) a sort of invisibility. As we were mentioning in another thread, a lot of Native Americans were simply not accounted for in the population, for centuries. They were like non-people, almost, as far as the U.S. government was concerned.

Even today, certain Indian nations (tribes) are still having to push and nag the government just to be recognized as official peoples. Here in Virginia we have around eight nations that didn't receive government recognition until recently. It is an odd kind of racism, not so much "Us vs Them" as "We are here, so you don't exist".

I think there are a lot of us who may have Indian blood and just don't know it (like B-in-a-Q until recently), simply because mixed marriages were thought to be embarrassing and therefore went unrecorded, or because Indian people decided to sweep their heritage under the rug to avoid complications.

Be that as it may, the whole world could benefit from dropping the "Us vs Them" idea. It is sad that here in the United States (how "united" are we, anyway?), a place so genetically diverse, we still have conditions where some people can so easily be manipulated into hating one another.

The bad economy doesn't help, either. When people can't find jobs some start laying the blame on "foreigners". That's the big problem in the midwest. Poor industry plus immigrants from nearby central America equals conflict. It's not the immigrant's fault, but they feel like someone is to blame.

Maybe blame is itself is the heart of the problem. Maybe it's not so much that x hates y, but that x blames y because x feels so powerless.