[Split topic from Education]

[Sibling Chatty]

What I think is that libertarians always want to discuss THEIR money in abstract terms because it makes their demands to keep THEIR money sound less like greed and more like some noble effort at a more equitable world.

Taxes are theft?? To you, maybe. PROPERTY is theft.

The concept of 'owning property' is theft from other perspectives. As is a 'personal salary' or personal wealth of any kind.

If we're going off into high flown abstracts, let's be clear about this. The general concept that we are, in some way, responsible to (and for) our fellow beings has a strong following here. 

And, all the high flying abstracts recognized, there's the practical application of those abstracts.

Personally, I am, at heart, an anarchist. I don't want to be told what to do or how, when or why to do it by any person, group, government, religion, foundation or sewing circle. I recognize, however, that as an individual, I am interdependent with the rest of the individuals in my vicinity, and that we, as a geographically defined group, are interdependent with others, and that the larger groups working together provide things like roads, protection from invasion, air travel safety, and a way for fresh produce to get from the field to my supermarket are ALL interconnected in many ways...not the least of which is a system by which one CAN accumulate 'wealth' in ways other than hoarding food or beads, shells, bits of metal--whatever would pass for "money" in a no-taxes society.

Now, short of an almost complete nuclear (or other powerful)  human life destroying catastrophe, the concept of taxation is here to stay. I'm quite sure that there are LOTS of people that would be thrilled to move beyond the obligation to a greater chunk of humanity than the few under their roof. HOWEVER, it is incumbent upon me to repeat the warning that this mental activity of speculating on HOW to keep "this money I get" without speculating on effect of the complete removal of the intrinsic support of the infrastructure that makes that income possible ends up being just so much sound and fury, so much idle speculation...so much mental masturbation, if you will.

You want to keep more of "your money"? Fine. I sure as hell would have liked to been able to keep mine, back when I could earn some. Now that I can't, I am dependent on the taxes paid by 'society at large' to help me stay alive. So, in an indirect way, YOU want to keep your money, and so that you can, I get to die. Why? Because the public, the VOTING public, has been sucked in to thinking that the Pentagon NEEDS billions and billions of dollars to waste every year. If you want to keep more of your money, get involved politically and VOTE for people who will not waste it on missile shields that WILL NOT (and weren't ever going to) work. Don't let the Congress raise its pay at the drop of a hat. Elect people that will use some common sense in their daily doings.

I HAVE BEEN doing these things. Why?? Because I would like to think that IF the US quit wasting billions, quit giving it to the already ultra-wealthy, and started making life better for EVERYBODY, not just the few, that there would be LESS unrest, LESS crime, LESS hatred and abuse...a better world, or at least a better USA.

What have you done, other than speculate on a worldview that will support your desires?

just a guy trying to find a guiding set of principles that will provide everyone with the opportunity to live their lives freely & prosperously

There are hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of guiding sets of principals. Who is this 'everyone' you're talking about? Does that include those unable to work to earn their daily prosperity? Or are they (we) going to have to depend on charity? (Hint, charity giving can in NO WAY replace the funding of disability and medical care, no, not even if there was 'no taxes' on the money people made...there's not that much altruism in this society.)

[ivor]

Well, I pay taxes because it's the law.  The consequences of breaking the law are arrest, prosecution and incarceration the same as any one else that breaks the law.  I believe we all pay too much for taxes but I'm not going to start a revolution or move to a different country.  If there is some tax reform then I hope it comes from a popular political process.

[Sibling Chatty]

  If there is some tax reform then I hope it comes from a popular political process.

TA DAAA!!

That's the concept here. That's what our government is SUPPOSED to do. Unfortunately, there's to much self-serving greed and petty power-brokering involved in it. Which means that we, the people, need to help clean it up!

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

So is taxation robbery?  I arrive at the conclusion that is,indeed, with the following observations & reasoning:

    * Robbery is the taking of another's property by use of force or fear.

Robbery is defined as taking the property of another, with the intent to permanently deprive the person of that property, by means of force or fear, I can agree with that. But, taxes aren't, IMO, a "permanent deprivation", as you get them back, only in a different form, when you need a police man, a fire man, a road to drive on, etc...

Of course, paying taxes might be seen as a "pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property to support the government", as you suggest, but it's not that involuntary. You might of course not pay your taxes, or move to a country, where you don't have to pay taxes. You claim that "Non-payment of taxes is punishable by the use of force", that is of course right. As not paying taxes is against the law. Taxes are a part of the legal system of your country. That makes them legitimate part of the society, thus not-paying taxes actually become robbery - you're robbing the state of the money, you agreed to pay, when you decided to live in this particular country.

Let's move to another level: you're suggesting, paying only for those things you want, like police or similiar. You could of course try to endorse private defence entities. But that one could backfire, as we've seen in some particular countries, where the taxation and the state function of civil protoection has collapsed and been replaced by private defence agencies (see Somalia as an example).

IMO, paying taxes is a necessary evil, but the emphasis is on "necessary". Your taxes are needed to make your country what it is. For the infrastructure, for the defence, for the law enforcement etc. The way your government spends "your" money can and is decided by you. You chose your representation in the government by voting. If you see that the government is not doing, what they've promised, you can, in a democratic society, see to it that these particular paople never decide about your money again...

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

before we dive into the "how" of the matter, we must first address the "should".

Ahh, but both are intertwined. If there were a way to keep society from collapsing in a jungle of lawlessness then we could consider the 'should'. I certainly don't want my hard earned money spent in useless foreign wars, overpriced no bid contracts and bridges to nowhere, but it so happens that that same fund pays for my son's school, for the highways I use to go to work, the hospital I have to go if I or anyone in my family falls ill, etc, etc. Better yet, I am very much aware that if funds are cut, it is far more likely that the funds for services I use and need will be cut before pork and true theft/waste.

Now, if you really want to live in a place without taxes then the society we live in would require a fundamental and structural change. Simple things that we take for granted would very quickly disappear, like -say- mobility: only those with enough resources would make roads only to the places that make economic sense and they could perfectly prevent any person outside their interest to move through those roads. Monopolies would show up their ugly face very quickly and not having a way to prevent their existence they would become all powerful, to the point of tax every one of their users as much as they would like. Not having a way to enforce laws a group powerful enough could force out any competition or threat without explanations or apologies.

Oh, and there is a tiny detail, many of those things I just mentioned have happened before (and still happen), and not surprisingly the people that had to endure them didn't enjoy them.

Lastly and given that we are dealing with abstracts couldn't I say that profit is theft?

[Alpaca]

Elf, I find it an invalid argument to claim that practicalities cannot be discussed before the moral correctness of an issue is decided. I believe that government is evil, and that our society ought to be anarchistic. Awesome. Now what? You want a purely capitalistic anarchy. A good friend of mine also wants anarchy, but he envisions as purely socialistic, without money, with everyone working together happily and peacefully for the greater good. Would I hypothetically like anarchy? Sure. Do I agree with either your vision, or my friend's? No. Why? Practicalities.

[The Meromorph]

Elf, I think that your refusal to discuss how before discussing why is simply a cop-out, because you can't you explain how.
We're willing to discuss how, because we know what we are talking about...

I flat out challenge you to answer my previous question... 
I expect you to weasel some more instead. 

Edit: Adding:
There's a reason for the approach everyone is taking. 'Theorists' who want to discuss how the world should be, and figure out the how later, have been responsible for some of the most horrible societies ever. The various Russia's, Red China, Laos, Cambodia, Chile under Pinochet, Argentina, Prussia, Several French republics, etc. The how matters. Much much more than the why.
The how always and necessarily engages with human nature. And I/We don't think you understand human nature. You know how you'd like it to be. You can't make it like that. All I can do is be the way I'd like every one to be. If no-one else goes along, then still, all I can do is...

[ivor]

He'll answer.  He has some compelling arguments.  He talked with me about Min-archy.  I like the concept as I am all about smaller government, not at the cost of treating the sick or financial assistance for those in real need of it. 

You ask a good question though.  Private police doesn't sound like a very good idea to me either.  I would think they could play both sides of the field and "justify" a reason to increase cost.  I think most people are greedy and power hungry and we'd end up worse off, not that it's great now but I've been to other countries and seen rampant corruption in action.  There's just not enough checks and balances in anarchy to me.  The discussion is fascinating though.

Where's the Goat in all this?  I thought he'd be here with his bullhorn by now. 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I love the idea of cooperativism and things like the kibbutz, but those aren't workable if a greater entity isn't there to protect them (and those protections are more than plain police and defense but legal framework and enforcement).

[beagle]

Elf,

You're assuming that you have a "right" to private property in the first place.  That right is one of a set of rules derived by consensus in democracies. You only get 1/200th million of a say (round numbers, assuming you're in the U.S.) as to what comprises that set of rules in the first place.  All these rules are enforced by the threat of force, so to pick out taxation as a particular case is specious.

[Bluenose]

Actually, you do not have to pay taxes.  Simply opt out of the economic system, quit your job, sell your house and car, go and live off the land in Alaska or some other wilderness area.  No need for money after all, and you will not have to pay any taxes.

Of course, if you choose to participate in the system, then you have to agree to abide by the rules.  The rules in a demoncracy are ultimately those agreed by the people, you know, of the people, for the people.

I think you are trying to have it both ways.  Not fair.  If you wish to participate, pay your taxes.  If you don't like the way they are being spent then get involved in politics and try to convince enough other peopole of your view so you can get the law changed.  But don't prattle on about theft.