Two Telegraph articles...

[Swatopluk]

Although I wouldn't say that history classes were bad at my time in school, I'd still say that the curriculum should be organized better, i.e. tighter. All too often whole periods were left out not because of some ideology but because the time ran out. Lingering too long in the Middle Ages caused the time between the 30 years war and the French revolution to be left out almost completely and the in-depth treatment of the French revolution/Napoleon left no time for the rest of the 19th century, we had to jump right into the aftermath of WW1.
The post-WW2 period fell victim to Weimar&3rd Reich. Both the 19th century and post-WW2 had to enter through the backdoor later in politics classes and the topics there were of course a good deal narrower.
Given my experiences at the university the "stuff left out due to running out of time" is still pervasive. It's depressing to witness a whole (history of science) class that can't even reach an agreement about who was on what side in WW1 (and I mean major players).

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

But still are the macro lessons of the war completely lost? Obviously you should know that much better than i do, but my impression is that the general attitude is a *bit* more careful than -say- certain drunk driver cowboy. Also, while the news report a resurgence in nationalist/pseudo-racist attitudes in certain groups, the general society would seem (at least from here) to reject them.

I guess my point is that while not everybody did or will learn history lessons, some major social trends have been moving forward. Perhaps the right question to put things in perspective is: if you go back 50 years general attitudes are better or worse than now?

Going back to my initial post, I would think that understanding the historical controversies is precisely the key to avoid repeating history itself.

[Swatopluk]

My impression is that the US mental state (at least concerning nationalism/foreign policy) has too much similarities to Germany about 1910 to be comfortable. And Bush being Wilhelm II minus brain and empathy doesn't actually help .

Do US children learn history mainly by memorizing minute details about certain events? Reading Mark Twain on that topic leaves that impression and I don't know what or how much has changed since then.

[goat starer]

I am interested in a few things in the Moore article....

1. in the original vote there were 1871 people. In the second vote there were 2086. More than 200 people (miraculously) materialised. was this a large party of atheists who were late? did they arrive in time to hear the arguments? If not why were they allowed to vote. Surely the only fair way to run the vote in this process is to poll the same people twice!

2. Clearly nobody had their mind changed by this process. in the first vote the no camp polled 36% of the vote. In the second 37%. The yes camp went up from 44% to 57%. All the shift is accounted for by the dont knows and the unaccountable arrivals. To my mind all this really shows is that people who 'dont know' do actually know but need the affirmation of 'knowlegable' people and their peers to step forward and critiscise religion.

3. the debate question "we'd be better off without religion" is not one that implies anything about the existence of God. Even if I believed in god I would argue that we would be better off without religion!

4. In my experience intelligent people are rarely happier people than 'thickos' when it comes to "how we feel, how we act towards others, how we speak, sing, dance, laugh, cry, eat and wash, how we die, how we pray and how we love." I would however look to J.S.Mill

"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides."

If the price of understanding things is to be less happy then I will gladly take it. The happiness Moore refers to is simply illusion. If you extend this argument then the natural end point is that it would be better if we never found out Father Christmas did not exist.

I suppose I am probably one of the evangelical atheists in question. It tends to make me despair when i see people putting their energy into illusory things rather than the betterment of the world in which we live. If just the hours spent by the millions in church every week were spent improving their neighbourhoods we would ALL be much happier!



 

[beagle]

It tends to make me despair when i see people putting their energy into illusory things rather than the betterment of the world in which we live. If just the hours spent by the millions in church every week were spent improving their neighbourhoods we would ALL be much happier!

Don't worry, we're planning something for you in another thread which will take your mind off it.

Of course the religious would probably agree with the pastoral work bit, and they've got a better record than most. (What am I saying, I'll be struck off as an atheist).

[anthrobabe]

My impression is that the US mental state (at least concerning nationalism/foreign policy) has too much similarities to Germany about 1910 to be comfortable. And Bush being Wilhelm II minus brain and empathy doesn't actually help .

Do US children learn history mainly by memorizing minute details about certain events? Reading Mark Twain on that topic leaves that impression and I don't know what or how much has changed since then.

I agree with you on my countries mental state- not everyone has the "condition" but those that do certainly overwhelm those who don't. When any nation has a "leader" that believes they are getting direct and unfiltered directions from God and then acting on that almost unfettered is a danger to the rest of the planet. The less I say about W the better.

About learning history- I was in public High School about 20 years ago and at the time is was still pretty much learning the "old" stuff and memorization and not much current events and world view stuff. LOTS of ethnocentricm! I remember that- Oh national pride and all is not a bad thing but this "WE vs _themis just not good. From what I can gather now ( I have one daughter still in public high school) not too much has changed- still an inordiante amount of time spent on the Civil War and such.

I've take the freshman History classes in college- they were pretty thick with the past- but better about being global and not just US history, probably because there are oodles of US history classes themselves. Just not enough time spent- two semesters is not enough time for an introduction to all of history!

I should probably be more current on what is being taught in public schools- but I tend to let the school teach their stuff and then suplement it in daily life by getting my daughters to read the paper, watch the news ( and not just USA networks either- we are quite fond of the BBC news and TeleMundo), and just generally encourage them to think outside the box and have a more global view of things. Like when 9-11 happened- I made it a point to have them( and myself) look at it and think about it from the view of other people and nations( sort of trying to wear someone elses shoes).

I do love the USA- we aren't perfect- darn-it who is. We do have great issues with how we look,appear,represent ourselves to the rest of the planet- but I don't think all is lost yet. It's my intention to keep screaming loudly so that all is never lost. We've all got to understand that it's not the USA vs Them- we all inhabit this planet and we can't just up and move somewhere else. It belongs to us ALL.

I totally agree with cleaning up ones own neighborhood before daring to complain about anothers.

[Sibling Chatty]

It tends to make me despair when i see people putting their energy into illusory things rather than the betterment of the world in which we live. If just the hours spent by the millions in church every week were spent improving their neighbourhoods we would ALL be much happier!



 

Unfortunately, there are too many (WAY too many) people that wouldn't even begin to be cognizant of the need to do anything for ANY neighborhood. One of the side effects of an hour or so in church every week or so is that a certain percentage of attendees eventually Get It and realize that they MUST do something to better the world before they can rest on their comfortable backsides. (Does the athiest or agnostic position offer similar 'motivated learning'?)

Put enough people in one place with a source document that speaks highly of Doing for Others and eventually they leave off studying the Old Testament and the Very Judgmental Pauline Epistles, and get down to the very essence of  the gospel, which is Love Thy Fellow Human Being, and not in an ephemeral, academic manner.

"For though I speak with the tongues of Men and of Angels, if I have not Love, it profiteth me nothing."

If you can't get that through their thick skulls except through repetition, then that hour or so a week is NOT wasted. (And now we know why the Baptists decided to withdraw the offer of ordination. They HATE being called thick-skulled.)

[The Meromorph]

It tends to make me despair when i see people putting their energy into illusory things rather than the betterment of the world in which we live. If just the hours spent by the millions in church every week were spent improving their neighbourhoods we would ALL be much happier!



 

Unfortunately, there are too many (WAY too many) people that wouldn't even begin to be cognizant of the need to do anything for ANY neighborhood. One of the side effects of an hour or so in church every week or so is that a certain percentage of attendees eventually Get It and realize that they MUST do something to better the world before they can rest on their comfortable backsides. (Does the athiest or agnostic position offer similar 'motivated learning'?)

No it doesn't, and your point is well made.
Some of us (and I believe an equivalent number of christians and muslims and others, also) get it anyway.
But your point has about tripled the perceived value (in my cynical eyes) of religion in the modern world.

Thank you, I needed that. 

[Sibling Chatty]

That, actually, is one of the few valuable things about "organized" religion.

(I used to say that I wasn't a member of an organized religion, I was a Baptist. Then along came the Right Wingers (in the mid 70's to be precise) and they organized us. So I left--stage Left.)

There's a certain amount of peer pressure that comes to bear, especially in the Not Authoritarian faiths. That hit me today when I went over to the Senior Citizen's Center to fix Mom's glasses for her. The Lutheran Brotherhood men were there, fixing the damage on the roof. The poured the concrete walks all around the center when it was built.  A few years later, when it was needed, they painted it and did the addition at the back. Why? Because the Area Council of Governments would have gotten to it, eventually. Eventually wasn't soon enough, the need was 'now'.

It wasn't the guys that all go drink coffee at 10 AM, it wasn't the VFW or the Lions, it was the Lutherans. Some of them ARE the guys that drink coffee at 10, some of them are in the VFW or Lions. But it was their church affiliation that brought them together to do something.

I think that through things like Meet Ups and other organizational meetings, non-religious groups might do the same, but the tradition of  faith groups doing service projects is long. And it's something that is a by-product of the actual premise behind the whole Dog and Pony Show that Modern Religion seems to have become.