Here.

[Bluenose]

I believe that the Toadfish way is to show tolerance to other ways of thinking.  I have what I think are valid reasons for my non-belief as you no doubt have what you think are valid reasons for what you believe.  I am happy to discuss our differences so long as we agree that neither one is trying to convince the other, but rather better explain where we are coming from.  This is all I have ever tried to do here and I hope I have not once again blundered in and caused you unnecessary grief because of my choice of words or way of experessing myself.  (I well remember doing that last year and I am still remorseful for it.)

However, all this is not nearly so important in many ways, at least IMHO, as what we do.  What do we actually do if one of our number is in distress.  Do we offer what help we can?  Do we attempt to do something IRL?  Sometimes simple words of understanding and support may be the appropriate thing, other times we perhaps need to do concrete things.  Our successes in this area are I think an important guage to how much we are committed to our principles.  We are young yet, but so far I think we have not done too bad.

Chatty, you have taught me so much about how to be tolerant and to act in a civil manner - do you remember firing a shot across my bows over in TOP not long after I joined?  Perhaps not, but I do, and that is what is important.  You have helped me to begin to change myself into a better person.  I would hate to lose you for my own sake and for my siblings I would hate for them to lose you too.  Your POV is perfectly valid, I will fight anyone who says you are not entitled to your beliefs.  That others, even myself may seek for our own use to explain why others including yourself think differently to themselves (or myself) is a matter for them (or me) - it says nothing that you need to be concerned about, unless someone tries to deliberately use such a line of reasoning as a means of having a go at you.  That is certainly against our principles.  What I think I am trying to say is that I would never knowingly say something that was intended to be seen by you as an attack on you.  I am sure that this applies to my siblings as well.  If we have said something that was capable of being seen as less than caring about your position, please accept my sincerest apology on behalf of all the siblings.  We don't want to lose you.  We lov you.

[Bruder Cuzzen]

I'm bewildered , Chatty , I think of you as the Toadfishmonastery ( not taking anything away from fellow sibs ) .
But as a late arrival and binge internet poster (and incorrigible fool ) I miss a  great deal of discussions ( I'll address this sometime in the future maybe ).

I really don't see how you don't fit in . I have so many friends who are ex-whatevers or staunch Catholics and protestants and etc..
We all get along just fine .

I was raised by Old World Chinese , my parents and grandparents knew nothing of Christ or Islam or much of anything going on outside their villages except the terror of the Japanese invasion and fear of Maoist reprisals .

As children the local Baptist Church had a mission drive and the new church building was filled up with people including a 7yr old yours truly . My parents were pragmatic and never attended , dad had a  limited command of English and ma had no intention of learning the native lingo Also dad worked every day to maintain our level of poverty .
In time I found myself uncomfortable with the local church , so many people (including church elders no less ) seemingly ( in that child's eyes ) filled with hatred , intolerance and  bigotry condemning everyone to hell.

I thought God was about love !? I think God by any other name is still God , my parents had no influence whatsoever on our thoughts or feelings about God or no God , they simply believed that things are and will be . Better to spend time earning money to buy food than spend time not working  and coughing up a  nickel each for the collection box

I don't know exactly where I am now , i see benefits of churches and i see the evils as well . I still believe that God is God , that God exists   yet does not ...God is a paradox to me .

I can feel my heart sink at the thought of you leaving Chatty , I am not a good writer , my mind is so muddled at the best of times that can barely string together a sentence , let alone make sense .
I look forward to your posts as well the reading the thoughts of others here , I feel they help me improve myself and gives me enough cheer to face another day .
Would you wait a while for me to put together something to tug your heart strings , to get  that silly notion of not fitting in out of your mind .
You have been such an inspiration to me , you and the sibs have enriched my life so greatly , without you here the monastery would have such a void to fill.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

BC, you're perfectly capable of stringing sentences together.

[Sibling Chatty]

Chatty, you have taught me so much about how to be tolerant and to act in a civil manner - do you remember firing a shot across my bows over in TOP not long after I joined?  Perhaps not, but I do, and that is what is important. 

I do remember, and I remember the gracious and intelligent response.



Lots of us learned a lot there (including the reminder that no good deed goes unpunished...but enough about booby) and the best thing any of us learned was tolerance. That the world isn't all just like us, and that it's a GOOD thing.

I've just been very shaky, and I let things get to me.

[Opsa]

It's okay, Hon.

_{I seem to recall you calming me down after a battle involving a monkey-woman.}

[Bluenose]

You know Chatty, you are an inspirtion to us.  I do not know how well I would deal with things if I had the same health issues that you do.  I see the frustration at the idiocy you have to deal with at times and I also feel for the reality of the situation.  That you manage to share this with us, says a very great deal about you and I admire you for it.  Frankly, if you get a bit shakey at times and you let things get to you it is no surprise, in fact I think you are entitled.  We are none of us here forever, but what we do with the time we have is what is important.  I think you should be proud of how you are using your time.  Whatever the future holds, and we should never forget that anyone of us could be gone tomorrow, the world is a better place because Chatty was there.  We Toadfish are so lucky to have you as one of our number.  Now I'm beginning to gush, so it's time to shut up.

You keep on being you, Chatty, you're just the way we like it!

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Hello peoples !

I've just read the first link for a third time...I think I understand it now ( i'm surprised he hasn't got one response ). I can't prescribe to his theory  of parental influences on their offspring's religious  beliefs or lack thereof .

I have five siblings and we all differ in our beliefs , two of my sibs are very active in their churches (gospel churches with the pentacostal assemblies ) , the closest thing to old time Christianity IMO . My other sibs don't think about religion or spirituality at all , in fact most of the folks i've met in the pentacostal assemblies don't concern themselves to much at the promise of death at all .They are more concerned with the everyday challenges of life and how to follow in Christ's footsteps .

However the pentacostal ( I'm still misspelling this word ...damn) mandate is just the same as most religions , that is , we must grow because we are the true yadda yadda yadda and yadda yadda yadda....

The essay was a compelling read for me , yet for some reason that I'm not quite sure of , it doesn't bother me . I find my existence to be reason enough to believe that a  " spirit of life "  exists . That we are all part of this spirit , that we all (including life in other planets , in other universes are part of it .We spring not from oblivion , but from this singularity of unfathomable scope to which we will always be a part of .. There is nothing that can change me from this belief , God with a different name is still God and still will be God even if no species is sentient enough to come up with a name .

Does a falling tree make any sound if nothing is about to hear it ?

What is this warm and fuzziness thing?

Also , while I'm making a fool of myself here ...about the Second Coming of Christ...I think he came back more than once...we just keep on killing him...I hope He doesn't give up on us....

[Opsa]

It's possible we just killed her again, in the form of Ms. Bhutto.

Some (but not nearly all) of us believe that we are each another version of the divine, we just haven't realized our full potential. When looked at from that perspective, one could say that we will not be given up on until we all give up on ourselves.

So ...don't give up!

[anthrobabe]

what always struck me about Bhutto was how she was a clear demonstration of how there is no such thing as a stero-typical Muslim-- so often (esp post 9/11 here in the states) we hear about "the evil Muslim" influence aka the Taliban as if the Taliban is the entirety of the Muslim faith----NOT
her family was so much a part of her and what she did-- when I hear people say that Muslim women can't leave their homes and must be completely covered and etc I just shake my head and say but what about Benazir? and they just don't get it-- this woman was prime minister of Pakistan-- prime minister can be likened to president of the USA and we have never had a female pres or vice-pres (YET!)
if we could all simply remember this on a daily basis then we'd much better understand how individual faith is to each and how different the definition is-- but no less valid as we are all valid and worth all

[Aphos]

what always struck me about Bhutto was how she was a clear demonstration of how there is no such thing as a stero-typical Muslim-- so often (esp post 9/11 here in the states) we hear about "the evil Muslim" influence aka the Taliban as if the Taliban is the entirety of the Muslim faith----NOT
her family was so much a part of her and what she did-- when I hear people say that Muslim women can't leave their homes and must be completely covered and etc I just shake my head and say but what about Benazir? and they just don't get it-- this woman was prime minister of Pakistan-- prime minister can be likened to president of the USA and we have never had a female pres or vice-pres (YET!)
if we could all simply remember this on a daily basis then we'd much better understand how individual faith is to each and how different the definition is-- but no less valid as we are all valid and worth all

While I don't think Bhutto was right on every subject, I still think she was the best hope for democracy in Pakistan.  She will be missed.