Respect for the Aged

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Sorry jjj , I need some more elaboration on #1 and #4 to #9 , you see I have forgotten the dictionary definition and I don't want to look it up . I have a small measure of confidence you know where I am going with this and trust you are not offended.

These questions are intended to clarify for the members and guests (and me)your take on this , for me it is a deadly sin , and I avoid it as much as I am capable .
However i don't really care if anyone else displays it , negatively or positively , it is the choice (or non choice ) of the individual .

I do admire those who take pride in striving for personal excellence as long as they do not use others unwillingly to attain such a goal .
However if one flaunts their achievements continually to the same person(s)  repeatedly ,  personal pride becomes....boastful , do you agree?

[jjj]

I do admire those who take pride in striving for personal excellence as long as they do not use others unwillingly to attain such a goal .

Just thinking... when, where or how I did such a thing? Not that I am aware of. I disclosed my age to introduce myself to members. So, members have a better idea of what life experiences and homework to expect or not to expect... but it was ill-conceived. At the same time I also introduced my achievements, aimed at enriching the forum, not merely to flaunt them unsubstantiatedly.

However if one flaunts their achievements continually to the same person(s)  repeatedly ,  personal pride becomes....boastful , do you agree?

Well, as mentioned, if the reference is applied out of context (other than proof) then personal pride becomes....boastful, I agree.
Again, I'm just thinking... when, where or how I did such a thing? Not that I am aware of. The only way I mention my 'achievements' is when they are needed as evidence to support my statement. Or maybe I should ask: Show me a context where I unnecessarily, boastfully flaunted my achievements. This way I can readjust my 'flaunting filter/ gauge'... and so, avoid upsetting our humble, flaunt sensitive members. With bi-lateral good will we can achieve heavenly harmony... taking care not even mentioning this very achievement.
Post/after thought: Considering the alternatives... what would have happened if I would have not mentioned non-of anything?
A: It would be virtually impossible for me to substantiate my claims. For instance: If I claimed that my certain abilities were inherited (not acquired) than I had no gained personal insight from life experiences to back up my claim. In other words I can honestly say that most of my gained insight I originated and thus, benefit from. That's why I find it so hard to conceal its source. Hence, I apply my achievements as evidence  for my claims... or they won't make sense.

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Whoa ! jj , I wrote , " those " and " if one" , not you ! My sincerest apologies for that !

[jjj]

It's my bad conscience, which makes me think back where, how or when I sinned, because it's true I'm lifting my nose often too high,  but then again it's the fault of those 'silicon implants' I received from those big guns...

The worst side step I did in the Rotary Club... where I couldn't handle the humbleness anymore and slipped, while answering questions from members, saying: 'Gentlemen, I find it increasingly hard to remain humble, when one is the greatest!' A mighty got up and proclaimed: 'We are renown not to take such statements easily, but'.... (I stop here). They knew it wasn't meant to insult anyone, but rather relish in the spirit of the moment.
(Proof: I still have the Summary of that posh Lindfield Club (75 members) with that 'memorable quote'... oh horror!) 

[Bruder Cuzzen]

The worst side step I did in the Rotary Club... where I couldn't handle the humbleness anymore and slipped, while answering questions from members, saying: 'Gentlemen, I find it increasingly hard to remain humble, when one is the greatest!' A mighty got up and proclaimed: 'We are renown not to take such statements easily, but'.... (I stop here). They knew it wasn't meant to insult anyone, but rather relish in the spirit of the moment.
(Proof: I still have the Summary of that posh Lindfield Club (75 members) with that 'memorable quote'... oh horror!) 

[Darlica]

Communication is a tricky thing, doing it by written language alone is worse, communicating through text in a language that isn't your native tongue is even worse... However you are not alone in that situation, my first language is for example Swedish and there are as I understand many other nationalities among the Siblings.

You asked for constructive help to avoid misunderstandings, The Meromorph has points out some very important keys to what perhaps make people misread your intentions.

My two cents in communication guidance would be:

Read: a lot, read English texts in every field you wish to make your opinion heard. If you want to write about cooking read cookbooks, it you want to write about art read art books, and of cause if you want to write about philosophic matters read such books. 

Tune in: If you are new to a place and you feel that the language is restraining you. Stop and listen (look), take a while and look around let the tone of other peoples conversation inspire you and set the tone in your contributions. This do not mean that you should conform into some sort of clone of somebody else. I simply mean that as a new member of a group (I'm new too) one sometimes has to tune in to the attitude as well the way words are used. this links to my next advice.

Tone down: As someone with a somewhat finite knowledge of a language it is easy to use too strong or too big words. If you feel like writing that something is "of the uttermost importance", tone it down, choose "of great importance" instead  you are still putting emphasis on importance and it is much easier to tune up the emphasis later (if needed) than to tune it down with out undermining ones argumentation.

Use help: Keep a good First language to English lexicon at hand and use it. Not for the spelling or grammar but for synonyms.
I'm going to use the tools of my trade (I'm an illustrator) to try to create a metaphor that explains what I mean: Synonyms of a word are like hues/nuance and saturation of a colour. To paint a picture, for example a portrait, you would need to use not only the right colours but also in the right nuance and in the saturation. Because even if you use the right colours, not using the right nuance and saturation will leave the picture looking naivistic and childish or even crude.
Do I make any sense?

There are a lot of on-line lexicons available Websters online dictionary (  http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/ ) is one.

These guidlines usually works for me.

/D

[jjj]

Thx for that. I am using MS-Word 2007 (installed Version) with synonyms and thesaurus plus the dial-up Internet. No problem there.
All I need is to be pushed in line.
Just tell me gently, but firmly... what I should forget or when my word choice is incorrect. That's how I learn when I step out of line. In that regard treat me like a child.     

[Opsa]

The problem is, we don't know what you originally mean to be correct. 

I wonder if you know that to some of us you seem to be expressing great squawking distain for what we are doing here. Occasionally I can't understand why you are still hanging around if you find humbleness to be so offensive.

Humbleness is our most powerful tool as Toadfish siblings. It has made a big difference to those of us who have chosen to stay here. We have used it to find more contentment in our powers of communication. We invite you to stick around and give it a try. Will you?

[Bluenose]

One of the truly hardest things to do is to express yourself accurately with just the written word.

I am naturally a fairly abrasive person, I do not naturally suffer fools gladly and have little natural tolerance for ignorance.  I have been struggling with these characteristics all my adult life, and this year I will be 50.  However, I have found in the last few years that it is a great help to try and see what I have written from the POV of someone who has the opposite views to myself.  I play my own devils advocate, if you like.  I don't know why I have not done this before, after all it was a favourite tactic of mine when in the school debating team all those years ago.  Anyway I learnt the lesson.  In the year or so that I have been involved with the HOT, I have found that its ideals, especially of respect, humbleness and tolerance, have helped me a very great deal in real life.  I have found that I have become a better communicator and even more persuasive by not being so forceful and by allowing others the right to differ from me, even by demonstrating that I understand their POV.  I am now better able to put my point in a way that is not seen as threatening to others.  The new ideas sometimes seem to take root of their own accord and other people find that they move their position and at times I find myself shifting too.

Now I am trying to make this statement without seeming to be too boastful, because perversely it seems, that the less strident I become - the more humble - the more weight other people seem to accord what I have to say.  I am actively involved in work relating to the conservation of Australian native freshwater fish and have long been an active member of the peak body for native fish in the country.  Recently I have been invited to participate in many other forums (fora?) including government workshops, developing the implementation of some government policy and mending the fences between some up until now very disunited groups within the freshwater angling community.  I am proud of this   yet I put it down to really trying to take to heart the Toadfish ideals.  That is where the true responsibility for what is occurring lies, IMHO.  Allowing others the dignity to put their positions properly, not talking over them, not insisting they take your points,  Funnilly enough these approaches, so long as they are genuine - you cannot fake sincerity - really do work.

There is a great deal of wisdom among the siblings.  We do not agree on many of the things that we hold most important, such as religion, politics and so on, but that does not matter, we can discuss them here without the argument getting heated because we respect each other, we tolerate each siblings different view and we act humbly in that we do not try to force our POV on others or put ourselves ahead of them.  We do become very passionate about things at times, but we try very hard to avoid becoming personal or hurtful.  If we do accidentally do these things, or especially if we do so deliberately in the heat of the moment we make the effort to publically, and privately, apologise and to make amends.

This is not a heavy burden to bear, trust me.  It takes some working at in the beginning and we Toadfish can be very accepting of indiscretions of the new member on the site, so long as we detect a willingness to try to adhere to our ideal.  We do not expect perfection, even in long standing Siblings.  We are after all human.  It is the intent that matters.

I have seen that you do seem to want to try to understand what we are on about.  We would like nothing better than for you to choose to become a valued and contributing member of this place.  Think about what I have said, I think it may help you to fit in.  This is a broad community and there are many rooms in the monastery.  I am sure we can find one just right for you, if you are willing to travel with us on the journey.  We will always help out if you ask, sometime we don't wait to ask and that can at times seem a bit overbearing, I suppose.  However, I can assure you that we wish you nothing but good things and we want to help you to fit in here.

I think I'm beginning to prattle on a bit, so that's enough from me now.

Regards,

Sibling Bluenose

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Bluenose ,there is extra water in my eyes .

[jjj]

Yes, Bluenose you are a Gentleman and a great Aussi mate. Unfortunately my English isn't as good as yours an so, I have to content with what I can scribble together... I take a good example from you!

You see, I consider philosophical pondering and reasoning 'hard work' and albeit my writing style I might look/ sound out of whack at times, I really don't mean to offend anyone.
Also, I don't want to be stubborn or always be right. As you have seen, I'm happy to discuss anything and when I see it's not right, then I give reasons why I think it's not right. On the other hand if I have evidence for something to be right tan of course I'll be unable to yield and this attitude then could easily be interpreted as being inflexible or that I want to be right 'all the time'. To make matters worse, I'll be lacking concrete evidence, which I'm not supposed to disclose. Well, as mentioned, I shall try and see. Hopefully things aren't as cloudy as I'm depicting them.It's something new for me...

[The Meromorph]

 I think I'm beginning to understang jjj a lot more, now. I've learned alot more about his thinking. I've also learned a lot more about my own thinking, since we started discussions around jjj's thoughts and postings. And I've learned a lot from, and about, my Siblings here!   Darlica, and Bluenose have been an especially delightful surprise (silly me for being surprised!  ).

I think I come to quite a lot of different conclusions from jjj, as indeed I do with many of my Siblings here, and I welcome that. It's quite boring when everybody agrees all the time. I'm also now pretty sure that most of the 'alarming' disagreements we seem to have had are simply misunderstandings due to language usage. Well, that's nothing so unusual!
I'm now resolved to pay careful attention to how I'm reading jjj, and remember the ways in which we've been misunderstanding each other. I'm resolved to be generous and thoughtful in providing feedback to our new friend so that we all can grow in understanding each other...
jjj, I'd like you to stay around, and contribute, and help us all grow and learn together. 

[Griffin NoName]

I do admire those who take pride in striving for personal excellence as long as they do not use others unwillingly to attain such a goal .

Just thinking... when, where or how I did such a thing? Not that I am aware of. I disclosed my age to introduce myself to members. So, members have a better idea of what life experiences and homework to expect or not to expect... but it was ill-conceived. At the same time I also introduced my achievements, aimed at enriching the forum, not merely to flaunt them unsubstantiatedly.

However if one flaunts their achievements continually to the same person(s)  repeatedly ,  personal pride becomes....boastful , do you agree?

Well, as mentioned, if the reference is applied out of context (other than proof) then personal pride becomes....boastful, I agree.
Again, I'm just thinking... when, where or how I did such a thing? Not that I am aware of. The only way I mention my 'achievements' is when they are needed as evidence to support my statement. Or maybe I should ask: Show me a context where I unnecessarily, boastfully flaunted my achievements. This way I can readjust my 'flaunting filter/ gauge'... and so, avoid upsetting our humble, flaunt sensitive members. With bi-lateral good will we can achieve heavenly harmony... taking care not even mentioning this very achievement.
Post/after thought: Considering the alternatives... what would have happened if I would have not mentioned non-of anything?
A: It would be virtually impossible for me to substantiate my claims. For instance: If I claimed that my certain abilities were inherited (not acquired) than I had no gained personal insight from life experiences to back up my claim. In other words I can honestly say that most of my gained insight I originated and thus, benefit from. That's why I find it so hard to conceal its source. Hence, I apply my achievements as evidence  for my claims... or they won't make sense.

For me, what you have written above has highlighted some aspects that may have impeded progress here. It also touches on something Darlica said. I can't think of any forum member who has announced their achievements, or who has made any "claims" during the time we all have got to know each other, as a means of getting to know each other. Our insights have been voiced as just our views. Gradually it has become apparent that some have knowledge in certain areas, some don't but have interesting ways of looking at things nonetheless. It might also be of interest to you that quite a few have knowledge and skills, established outside the Monastery, some professionally, similar to those you "claim" but have never psoted anything specific about that.

Again, for me, this is a place where the extraordinary battles that wage in the outside world to "establish" oneself simply don't apply.

[Bluenose]

Also, I don't want to be stubborn or always be right. As you have seen, I'm happy to discuss anything and when I see it's not right, then I give reasons why I think it's not right. On the other hand if I have evidence for something to be right tan of course I'll be unable to yield and this attitude then could easily be interpreted as being inflexible or that I want to be right 'all the time'. To make matters worse, I'll be lacking concrete evidence, which I'm not supposed to disclose. Well, as mentioned, I shall try and see. Hopefully things aren't as cloudy as I'm depicting them.It's something new for me...

Hi jjj, I suspect that this may well be at the heart of the problem.  Many of the Toadfish have very definite opinions on many matters, for example I am one of those who do not believe in any god or gods.  I am convinced, to the maximum degree of certainty that I have about anything, that this is correct.  Yet there are many Toadfish who hold the completely opposite view - and quite a few who fall somewhere in between.  Despite this, which may seem like a fundamental difference, some of those with the most confirmed belief in God I would count amongst my best friends here.  On any "normal" web forum this would probably not be possible, but the Toadfish Monastery is a special place.  Like Mero, I keep finding out yet again just how special it is and I never cease to be amazed at the depth of the Siblings' insight into many different issues.  Then of course there are the pirates, a place where we can play and simply have a lot of fun.  What a woinderful place this is!

So, what do I recomend?  Well, when you are convinced you are right on a point I would say just state your case, once (important), and understand that others may not agree.  If your arguments have persuasive force, they will speak for themselves and others may well come to include some or all of what you say onto their own ideas.  They may not.  It does not matter either way, you do not need to convince us that you are right.  We enjoy the discussion and the testing of arguments (not fights BTW, argument is used here in the logical debate sense) and the interplay of different perspectives.

I suspect you have a great deal to offer and I can see how language can in this case be a barrier to clear communications.  Just try to be a bit less emphatic and try to explain the reasoning behind your views and I think you will get the hang of it.

[The Meromorph]

This whole thread was started by a post from me, after I gave the subject a lot of thought. In that first post, I gave a lot of possibly controversial information, expressed some passionately held views, and made what might be seen as some outrageous claims. I expected to spark some lively discussion...
This has turned out to be a lively and interesting and productive thread. None of the points I wanted to stimulate discussion of have been addressed by anyone else.  That's both a useful lesson for me, and an opportunity for me to apply what I've learned here and elsewhere (Back when I was a 'major asshole' I'd have taken issue with that. I'd have wanted to be 'right', or at least controversial). It's also an illustration of what BlueNose was just talking about, in his second paragraph. 
I've actually learned a lot, and very different things from what I intended, and what might have been the result of my 'strutting my stuff'.
Part of the magic of this place. It does take some getting used to.