Respect for the Aged

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I've also noticed that, and it's something, I think, that keeps us here.

I tend to fall in with Chatty, and for some of the same reasons (I'm not Southern, but I have family that is, and you DO NOT be anything less than polite to any of them unless you want the wrath of the entire family to fall on you.)
There is a basic level of respect I treat every sentient being with, but who they are determines if it moves up from there. If they earn more through their actions, words, thoughts and ideas, so be it. If they do the opposite, it moves down to the level of being civil (which is an facet of respect, IMO).

I would argue, by the way, that experience is not always the reason that our ancestors treated the elderly with respect. I would suggest it had more to do with the bonds they had. They lived in small social groups, so they knew each other, therefore, there were bonds, right?
It may have changed, and I would think the experience argument is a guilt trip.

[The Meromorph]

Jared Diamond, who has fairly extensive experience with Stone Age societies, illustrates the point with the observation that in one particular group, just about anyone could list and show him the (hundreds of) local fruits etc. that were good to eat. When he asked what it was possible to eat, however, they took him to find their oldest member, who had lived through a major tornado event some 70 years before and knew which of the other 'foods' would sustain life, and which would kill you quick.
I think the 'bonds' (very real to us) you talk about, developed as a result of, not instead of, the evolutionary advantage of a genetic pre-disposition to respect the aged. In other words, it's a way of expressing, or a mechanism for achieving, what is at base, as all evolutionary drivers are, a very practical and hard-cold-reality-based imperative.

Your genes don't care for the people you love. They cause you to care for the people you love.

[Aggie]

I would argue, by the way, that experience is not always the reason that our ancestors treated the elderly with respect. I would suggest it had more to do with the bonds they had. They lived in small social groups, so they knew each other, therefore, there were bonds, right?

I think (if I'm coming at this from a similar angle to Mero) that the argument is that these bonds may have some evolutionary basis, and that there was definite 'cultural evolution' that put/kept the respect in place.   Emotional bonds are important, but in populations living at near-starvation levels for extended periods of time, resource allocation becomes critical.   Incidentally, it occurs to me that 'elder-value' will be strongest in societies with regular long-period cycles of feast and famine (every decade or two), and less so where conditions are always consistently marginal.  In a society with constant abundance, one might expect elders to be supported, but not valued as highly (since few of the breeding generation or younger have strong need of elder-advice, and the next generation of 'elders' has failed to pick up survival tactics during their lifespan); this seems to hold out in the West at the moment.


Oops, parallel posted with Mero... 

[The Meromorph]

Oops, parallel posted with Mero... 

In more ways than one, good sibling! 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

It makes sense, I suppose. Same way that mother-child bond makes sense.

[Griffin]

Respect is an odd word I think. It implies value. What people value differs. In accord with Mero, evolutionary forces would tend to value anything which promoted staying alive long enough to procreate, and procreate well and often.

I prefer dignity. Too many of our elderly live without dignity. It niggles away in my mind every day. I don't believe they need to be respected to be allowed dignity.

It is true information can be retrieved from a multitude of sources other than elderly folks brains these days. But sometimes I think with a rye smile of life after global disaster (choose as you will which type); I am eternally grateful to the person who taught me to weave as I would have a tradeable skill

[jjj]

Do you really believe that Internet Info replaces/ obsoletes the need to transfer wisdom to children and young people from elders?
I don't think so, because, Internet Info is:
1) questionable
2) not offering conclusive answers
3) often offers biased advice
4) lacks guidance
5) lacks proof

[Bluenose]

I think you're right jjj.  the Internet is just like every other source of information, you need to apply your critical factors to the information to sift out the worthwhile stuff.

Two examples:

If I go into a bookshop I can find all sort of books telling me about the power of crystals, cosmic "forces", and a whole lot of other stuff.  It is up to me to use my own knowledge and experience to filter out what I should pay attention to.  Sure some true things may seem out there, and you should always be on the look out for it, and don't necessarily dismiss things out of hand, but as been stated elsewhere extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Just because someone you don't know and have never heard of says something is true does not make it so.

My grandfather (who is 96 and going strong) has spent a very significant part of his life in the bush.  He is a landscape artists and is basic tool of trade is his power of observation.  He has a particular love of birds and has closely observed them since he was a boy.  Yet he still insists that juvenile Eastern Rosellas (a type of Australian parrot) are the females because they are predominantly green whereas the adults are brightly coloured.  Now does this mean I do not respect my grandfather?  No of course not.  He has simply made, probably a long time ago an incorrect conclusion and never had reason to change hi mind.  I could try to point it out by referring him to a book, but it would only upset him, so what's the point.  He still knows more about bird habits in the bush than I will ever know.  His knowledge of the bush is amazing, just it is not perfect.

This applies to all sources of information.  Most are not completely correct.  In science, I would argue that there is no perfect knowledge about anything.

So when dealing with other people, respect is not given just because someone knows things.  Anyone IMO is entitled to a certain amount of respect and to be treated politely.  As Chatty put it very well, that is until they do things to lose that respect, and from what I have seen, some really work hard at losing the respect of others around them.  On the other hand many people, probably the overwhelming majority are worthy of greater respect than the "
default". 

Our elders may not know everything, but they do have life experience.  The young generation always says "but everything is new now", and indeed it is.  Just as it has always been.  I am sure the young people at the time of the invention of the bow and arrow reckoned their spear toting elders were fuddy duddies who had nothing to say about hunting that was worth listening to.  You can read Pliny the Elder complaining 2000 years ago about the lack of respect of "young people today".  And no doubt those young people complained about the old fashioned ideas of Pliny and his fellows.

I say enjoy your life, its the only one you've got.  Listen to what other people say, especially those who have greater experience than you.  Not everything may be right, but not everything will be wrong either.

[jjj]

Yes... nicely put!
So, in other words, the wisdom of elders is invaluable for young persons, since Internet Info lacks proper guidance.
Now how to convey this rather simple fact to 'cool' young people without heating/ grilling them?
I think to be effective this has to be instilled at a very tender age in order to amend/ correct flawed cultural trends. Let's give up on the last generation, since drugs and consequences are teaching them a lesson or two...the hard, painful way.

I blame the education system for having failed to deliver a better culture than what we witnessing now, because all evils starts very early. It's only if we fail to curb it that it grows out of proportion/ control.

[Aggie]

Do you really believe that Internet Info replaces/ obsoletes the need to transfer wisdom to children and young people from elders?
I don't think so, because, Internet Info is:
1) questionable
2) not offering conclusive answers
3) often offers biased advice
4) lacks guidance
5) lacks proof

I think all of these points can be applied against any source of wisdom, and in particular, #3 is very applicable to advice from elders!  Hopefully it is biased towards seeing younger folks succeed, but it's also interesting that one universal piece of advice from elders, "Respect your elders", is VERY elder-biased! 

Aside from intentional bias, life-experience wisdom is inherently biased toward the conditions in which it was formed.  I've been reading much on investing lately, which provides good examples of how 'sound advice' changes over time, and generally only applies to the past, not the future.  If I could ask the top financial wizards of the last 5 generations what the best 20-year investment strategy was, I'd get 5 different answers, and none of them would likely be the best strategy for the next 20 years - actually, I'd expect most to fail completely!

The wisdom of age does have value...  heck, if I could even go back 10 years and talk to my younger self, it would be of tremendous value (much of what I'd say was probably said to me at the time, but perhaps I'd trust my own self.  One always thinks they know best at that age), but it does come at the price of some ideals and ability to think in unwise directions - unwise thinking isn't necessarily 'safe', but it can produce unique and undiscovered nuggets of wisdom among the masses of fool's gold.   

Also, I know that you are not a fan of the 'sheep' mentality, but if all of society was to follow the consensus wisdom of it's elders, we'd have a very uniform society indeed!  If one wants to avoid consensus, how do you chose which elder to listen to?  There are old fools as well as young fools...  they are just less likely to dress like fools! 


All this being said, I think that elder advice has tremendous value in the areas that are constant and relatively unchanging in the human experience... particularly interpersonal relationships.


Oh, and as a member of the 'last generation' (close enough) I resent the bit on 'giving up'.  We are the parents of the next generation, and will have the greatest impact on it.  If you don't get through to us, you'll lose the little ones as well.  I've also seen tremendous wisdom in the adolescent members of this board (13 - 18 year olds), far more than I had at that age.  Again....  foolishness doesn't stop with age, it just wears less makeup.

_{Incidentally, I've always been well aware of consequences, and because I've been aware of consequences, have learned a positive lesson or two from drugs on occasion.}

[Opsa]

Oh, and as a member of the 'last generation' (close enough) I resent the bit on 'giving up'.  We are the parents of the next generation, and will have the greatest impact on it.  If you don't get through to us, you'll lose the little ones as well. 

Very insightful, there! 

The last generation will be next generation to grow up and have children. They may be making mistakes that look hopeless to those with more experience, but they are no more so than any of us were.

The older generations come in to help whenever a new generation starts generating another generation. That's the time when the parenting generation is ready to listen to the older folks. They will then take that knowledge and synthesize it through their own experiences and come up with new wisdom, which they will have available to share when their grandchildren need help with the kids.

Funny how it seems to skip a generation, huh? I guess that our parents have to tell us so much as we grow that at a certain point we have to turn them off to acheive our own independence. (It has been said that a person becomes an adult when she or she is consistantly able to disagree with a parent in a civilized fashion.)

[jjj]

..."Respect your elders", is VERY elder-biased!

Well, 'respect the wisdom of elders' is really meant by that. Ultimataly, not elders but the young ones are going to benefit from transfer of wisdom.Alternatively disrespecting acquired wisdom leaves young people vulnerable to acquire it the hard (not recommendable) way.

...examples of how 'sound advice' changes over time, and generally only applies to the past, not the future. 

True, sound advice regarding technical aspects changes over time, but that does not apply to fundamental principles related to quality of life, such as ...how to achieve highest possible, lasting contentment?

...unwise thinking isn't necessarily 'safe', but it can produce unique and undiscovered nuggets of wisdom among the masses of fool's gold. I've always been well aware of consequences, and because I've been aware of consequences, have learned a positive lesson or two from drugs on occasion.

Yes, wisdom gained the 'hard way is as invaluable as when it's gained the 'easy way'; i.e. heading advice from elders or learning lessons from mistakes of others. I prefer and recommend the latter.

...if all of society was to follow the consensus wisdom of it's elders, we'd have a very uniform society indeed!

Uniform...o.k., but rather in the sense of that we then all would possess more wisdom and so, needless suffering (due to gaining wisdom the hard way) would be minimized.

I resent the bit on 'giving up'.

That's nice to know, for it proves that you already (one way or the other) came to realize the benefits of insight for future generations, provided I interpreted your intentions correctly.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

So, in other words, the wisdom of elders is invaluable for young persons, since Internet Info lacks proper guidance.
Now how to convey this rather simple fact to 'cool' young people without heating/ grilling them?

Just a suggestion from perhaps a less than cool young person, avoid the "Smarter-then-thou" attitude. I have seen very little of that here, but when older people do it to me, it irritates me to no end. I've also heard my friends and peers complain about it, too.

I think to be effective this has to be instilled at a very tender age in order to amend/ correct flawed cultural trends. Let's give up on the last generation, since drugs and consequences are teaching them a lesson or two...the hard, painful way.

Hey! Not all of us are stupid. Some of us are capable of predicting the consequences of our actions. And as Auggie pointed out, you havbe to work with us to 'save' the next generation, unless you want to take our children from us.
I really think that a lot of our problems stem from lack or excess of parental control. For example, one of my stoner friends has very little parental guidance. Her mother turns a blind eye to much of what she does (so far, only weed and alcohol) as did her previous guardian.
Another friend, as soon as she left home, started sleeping around, etc. Got kicked out of college for it.

The parents that I have seen with the best behaved children are the ones who are more moderate. My parents will tell me why I can't do something, after I show that I'm going to do what they asked. My friend's parents guide him, and there are certain things he has to do, but they let him do as he likes within limits.
I'm not laying all the blame on parents who use, "Because I said so!" but I would suggest it's a definite factor, and most kids I know have parents that fall into one category or the other.

I blame the education system for having failed to deliver a better culture than what we witnessing now, because all evils starts very early. It's only if we fail to curb it that it grows out of proportion/ control.

True, but I think it's the parents' job to guide their children away from that. The education system should not have to parent the children. Parents need to deliver the moral culture and the respect for others, and they can do it far better then any teacher (who only has one year) can ever do.

[jjj]

The parents that I have seen with the best behaved children are the ones who are more moderate.

Good point! How about we learn/  model from parents, who do it right? The problem is also that now parents have limited powers to make their children obey their advice/ orders, yet, children need to be told what to do.
Thus, the only way to solve this dilemma would be establishing official parental guidelines and if they fail to work, the government should take over the responsibility, by reforming these difficult children in special camps (as seen on TV).

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

The camp idea make me nauseous. I thin that's a really bad idea, and while I don't have a solution, I don't think it's the right thing to do.

Yes, there's a limit to what parents can make their child do, particularly the older they get, but if you establish your authority early (IE at two or so) there should be fewer issues. I'm eighteen, and I know that legally, I can do what I want, but if my parents say no, then I'm going to listen unless there's a legit reason not to.
With teenagers, I would think that a deprivation of money would be a solution. There's only so much you can do for free and only so often you can mooch.