Trade agreements...

[jjj]

   

I don't think a government can ever be quite perfect.   

It's, because its politicians and voters are unwilling to dismantle their inherited/ acquired, negative traits. They prefer to foster them, instead!

I don't think that any human construct can be perfect.

Same thing! Think again... isn't it merely a matter of willingness to systematically dismantle  our inherited/ acquired, negative traits and stop fostering them?  I am willing to do it and if you can do it too, we are already two!

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

It's, because its politicians and voters are unwilling to dismantle their inherited/ acquired, negative traits. They prefer to foster them, instead!

Same thing! Think again... isn't it merely a matter of willingness to systematically dismantle  our inherited/ acquired, negative traits and stop fostering them?  I am willing to do it and if you can do it too, we are already two!

What can appear like a negative trait for you, may appear like a positive trait for others. That could be one of the reasons why people foster their "negative traits". And we should not forget the fact that some people would be willing to "dismantle" these traits, but can't, because the society doesn't want them to.

==============================================

This world is basically a "dog-eat-dog" world. IMO, politicians, businessmen, ordinary people, they all have one basic need (there are many others, but this could be seen as the most important) - to provide for themselves and for their family. Everyone tries to do so in the best way they can, some by "stealing", some by working hard...

(a very interesting thing, to understand what I am trying to say here, would be reading about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, here's a basic concept of Maslow:)

[jjj]

"negative traits"

True... to some people aggression, even criminal actions are positive traits.
Yet, to most descent people they are negative traits.

The hope for a better world looks really bleak if the majority of people are unable to define good traits from bad ones. Then may as well we give up all hopes and just selfishly seek to live our lives in the hope to die peacefully of old age. i like to think that there's more hope than that.

[anthrobabe]

It's, because its politicians and voters are unwilling to dismantle their inherited/ acquired, negative traits. They prefer to foster them, instead!

Same thing! Think again... isn't it merely a matter of willingness to systematically dismantle  our inherited/ acquired, negative traits and stop fostering them?  I am willing to do it and if you can do it too, we are already two!

What can appear like a negative trait for you, may appear like a positive trait for others. That could be one of the reasons why people foster their "negative traits". And we should not forget the fact that some people would be willing to "dismantle" these traits, but can't, because the society doesn't want them to.

==============================================

This world is basically a "dog-eat-dog" world. IMO, politicians, businessmen, ordinary people, they all have one basic need (there are many others, but this could be seen as the most important) - to provide for themselves and for their family. Everyone tries to do so in the best way they can, some by "stealing", some by working hard...

(a very interesting thing, to understand what I am trying to say here, would be reading about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, here's a basic concept of Maslow:)

Wow- I just had a flashback to freshman psychology there.

I agree, society/ cultural norms-- are very strong and it is eat or be eaten. Often we are aware of our negative traits (or traits we have that we ourselves feel to be negative, like you said, negative to one might not seem negative to another) but can not or will not "change"- it is when we understand this about each other that we can increase the dialogue and "play nicely".

[Alpaca]

True... to some people aggression, even criminal actions are positive traits.
Yet, to most descent people they are negative traits.

What about competitiveness? Biologically speaking, it should be called a "good trait," since it's what allowed us to survive, evolve, and rise to control over our ecosystem.

Yet it can lead to things like, well, as you mentioned, aggression.

Even if everybody agreed in defining traits, I think "positive" and "negative" are too black-and-white to encompass the benefits and drawbacks each of our traits can provide.

[The Meromorph]

Hhm! That thar pyramid's a useful little mental model, I'm thinking...
One of the ways in which it struck me as useful, is that in some of our recent discussions, we were operating (it seems to me) out of both of the top two levels, and that may be why we were experiencing cognitive dissonance with each other. (a statement at one level ought to be discussed and resolved at the same level, it's very confusing to cross levels in mid discussion).

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

True... to some people aggression, even criminal actions are positive traits.
Yet, to most descent people they are negative traits.

I wasn't actually talking exclusively about criminal action, but more about what Alpaca said:

What about competitiveness? Biologically speaking, it should be called a "good trait," since it's what allowed us to survive, evolve, and rise to control over our ecosystem.

Anyway, even "criminal activity" has two sides of the coin. Let's see it on example of former (or even current) communist regimes. Basically, those regimes see acting against the government (even by cticising it orally) as a "criminal activity" and people go to jail just for speaking out loud about it. Although they are oficially criminals, in the eyes of the regime, the democratic part of the world see, that those are actually positive traits they are expressing.

I think "positive" and "negative" are too black-and-white to encompass the benefits and drawbacks each of our traits can provide.

Exactly what I was trying to say...

[jjj]

Yet it can lead to things like, well, as you mentioned, aggression.

Correct observation! And that's where we have to learn/ find ways and means to control the negative devil within! Good and bad or the opposite polarities are amazingly close, aren't they? A little wrong move and already we are in the negative path. So, nature offers us the choice to decide for one or the other.
Yet, it's not too hard to understand the true meaning/ reason of nature's justice system... by simply considering the consequences of our actions.

[Alpaca]

Alright, jjj. I agree with that.

Now, since we've been using competitiveness as an example, I'll sick with it.

You mention, or at least if I understood correctly, that government would work fine if we all learned to weed out our negative traits.

So, since competitiveness has both positive and negative manifestations, is it a positive trait or a negative trait? That is, in the end, when I'm looking over my list of traits before entering the perfect society, and I get to competitiveness, should I keep it, or weed it out?

[jjj]

 

So, since competitiveness has both positive and negative manifestations, is it a positive trait or a negative trait? That is, in the end, when I'm looking over my list of traits before entering the perfect society, and I get to competitiveness, should I keep it, or weed it out?

Competitiveness is supposed to benefit customers not to undermine good capitalist rules. Thus, all depends whether it's applied pos/negatively. Applied to capitalist ideology, the best thing I can think of is to apply competitiveness as transparent and uncorrupted as possible. I.e. no price fixing, no monopolization, proper costs accounting and price setting (stop 'customerlifting') etc.
In fact I'm for a far better ideology available to which our society is not ready yet: An ideology in which we all offer our good will and services free of charge to each other. There's no money involved, there's little or no need for police, courts, jails... Yes, it's almost paradise on Earth. Yet, it's possible... if only we manage to rid ourselves of inherited/ acquired evil (i.e. negative traits)!  Yet, for some horrible reasons most of unwittingly prefer to compete and rip each other off! What a shame! No wonder any nobler creatures living on other planets/ solar systems stay away from us sordid monsters!   

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

How about individual competitiveness? It can be positive ("I have to practice/study more to play better than him") or negative ("if he hurts his hands he won't be able to play in the competition"). It even becomes murkier if we think about it from the perspective of survival ("not enough resources hence its him or me") which can be translated to less dire but no less stressful situations ("the winner of the competition gets a scholarship to that school I cannot afford to pay").

[jjj]

How about individual competitiveness? It can be positive ("I have to practice/study more to play better than him") or negative ("if he hurts his hands he won't be able to play in the competition"). It even becomes murkier if we think about it from the perspective of survival ("not enough resources hence its him or me") which can be translated to less dire but no less stressful situations ("the winner of the competition gets a scholarship to that school I cannot afford to pay").

   
All these artificial 'cramps' are caused by our mean social structure/ ideology, whereby money is the incentive to competiveness and power.  Thus, under this present conditions it's almost impossible to ward off negative temptations and actions. Eat or be eaten: kill or be killed! Schrecklich! Luis Armsrong should have sung: What a horrible world!

[Kiyoodle the Gambrinous]

In fact I'm for a far better ideology available to which our society is not ready yet: An ideology in which we all offer our good will and services free of charge to each other. There's no money involved, there's little or no need for police, courts, jails... Yes, it's almost paradise on Earth.

That sounds awfully like anarchism. As far as I know, this is quite an interesting thing, but it has been proven that it's almost impossible to work in a long term.

All these artificial 'cramps' are caused by our mean social structure/ ideology, whereby money is the incentive to competiveness and power.  Thus, under this present conditions it's almost impossible to ward off negative temptations and actions

I wouldn't really call them "artificial cramps". Those "cramps" are coming from the nature, competitivness has been in our genes since the time we were jumping around in trees. Animals fight each other in order to get the best position in the herd, to get the best piece of meat etc. Now replace meat with money, better position in the herd with social status and you'll see, that we're just acting like "animals".

Human beings are "Homo economicus" and this won't probably change any time soon...

[jjj]

 

That sounds awfully like anarchism. As far as I know, this is quite an interesting thing, but it has been proven that it's almost impossible to work in a long term.

It would be a wonderful thing. Albeit it's feasible and lasting 'forever' (or longer ) ...if only we would be able to uphold such virtues ideology! We are just not ready for it. Our negative traits require guns, police, court & jails! Listo! (That's it!)
It's about time we leave the hunter & gatherer mentality behind... and turn civilized, don't you reckon? We have to start one day; why not at least start planing now?
I like to conduct a test case study on an isolated island with say, two couples having children there and live off the land (with regular shipments of basic, needed supplies) and no contact with other cultures, no radio, no Internet, not TV. If they teach their children how to reject their inherited, negative traits... they stand a good chance to gradually weed them out.
More science fiction? >>> Scientific advances may soon enable us to recode/ cleanse our genetic code and so, accelerate this process! So, we better start planing, before they recode us to be even more competitive than we already are! 

[Alpaca]

One of my good friends is a Communist-Anarchist. His theories are extremely similar to yours.

I think that the vision of society you have would be wonderful. I think it would also be implementable on a small scale. Getting two, or ten, or even a hundred people to live harmoniously is feasible.

Here's the problem I have with it: how do you get over six billion people to live in perfect harmony? And doesn't one unharmonious, unscrupulous person have the potential to ruin everything?