Independence

[Griffin NoName]

Countdown to the Referendum.

Personally I hope they don't leave us. I think most people here feel that.

But I am interested in those who are going to vote Yes. Salmond has given no firm detail on anything; he doesn't know what currency they would use or be allowed to use, etc. Every aspect of operating indepenently is this vague set of claims without hard and fast agreement by the people who can grant whatever it is. I can understand the sentiment of voting Yes but how can so many people put their faith in someone who just talks big actually without any legs to stand on? This really bothers me and I find myself constantly feeling cross about it, like these people are just being unintelligent in their idealism. Of course, we are being constantly bombarded with the campaigns' progresses so constantly stirred up.

If Independence is the right way to go, why not work through all this stuff ahead of campaigning so it can be said in good faith yes, we will be able to still use the pound £? Why not make sure what is on offer is not pie in the sky? Then hold a referendum on the basis of fact instead of fiction.

Even the Last Night of the Proms was rather sad as tonight Scotland (and actually Wales) did not join us for admittedly the songs all about England's Hope, Glory, and pleasant lands (perhaps they never should have but they always did). We did however sing Auld Lang Syne as usual, although Scotland was absent.

[Swatopluk]

Well that tune lost its firm connection to Scotland at the latest when South Korea adopted it as its national anthem for some years  
Having no really informed opinion on the longterm viability of an independent Scotland, I can only say that such decisions tend rarely to be rational and based more on gut feeling than economic realities. Otherwise Czechs and Slovaks would likely have stayed together and Belgium would not be close to a break-apart most of the time. The separation of Belgium and the Netherlands made more sense due to the religious split and even there it was not the result of rational deliberation but a g#dd#amned opera performance that triggered it.

I can understand the Scots on a personal level but I have doubts (again, I have no idea about economics) that it makes sense in the realm of hard reality.
Looking at Germany I would actively campaign against a union with Austria (personal prejudice) and could find myself supporting Bavarian secession (that's mainly political, they are in a way our Texas).

[Griffin NoName]

Of course, every case is different. In this case if Scotland were not suffering under the Tory government who they did not vote for (ok it was democratic supposedly but actually not in actuality) I don't think this potential split would be happening. It is a shame they don't seem to be aware just how unpopular the present govt. is here as well. Not only unpopular but spectacually incompetent too. If the Tories get in again in 2015 (which I don't think they will, exceept perhaps with no clear majority) then I expect to see mass emigration (which would take care of the immigration figures). And G-d save us from Boris.

I don't see the Scots lose their identity at all by being in the Union which is why I see it as an economical issue.

[Swatopluk]

I don't see the Scots lose their identity at all by being in the Union which is why I see it as an economical issue.

Identity is about perception unless there is a deliberate policy to destroy it. England is not that active on that front at the moment (speaking Scots or wearing plait is iirc no felony anymore  )

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I've been following the news bit and I have to agree on the gut thing, even if there is a fair amount of rationality about the idea of secession. The UK is moving further to the right and the Scots are a left majority, the [rational] fears over NHS privatization are important because an independent Scotland could do what it can't as part of the UK. Both the revenue from the North Sea oil and the nuclear bases are fair grievances, and the economic uncertainty is a short term fear for them as eventually things will settle down one way or the other (Sterling vs Euro or what not).

Of course nobody but themselves want this to happen, not the English, be it for sentimental, economic or military reasons, not Labour specifically, because winning general elections without Scotland becomes a very difficult thing (why else would Rupert Murdoch be flirting with Salmond?), nor the EU and it's individual members fearful of a wave of separations that could affect Spain in the very short term but go further to even Italy.

As for feelings, considering that I'm a South American man living in the United States, that I personally would love to have a confederation below the US border and that I don't see what is so different among ourselves to merit different countries in the Spanish and even Portuguese speaking lands of the continent, I should be in favour of the union, but the truth is that for good or ill the Irish feel way better by themselves than as part of the UK and I suspect that the Scots would feel the same. As ironic as it may seem, I have the feeling that they would rather hear marching orders from Brussels than from London and in truth, who can blame them? For that I do feel sympathy for the Yes campaign more than the No.

Still chances are that Scotland will [barely] remain part of the UK if polling numbers are to be trusted, nevertheless, it's a win-win for Scotland as even if the No wins Scotland will surely win some extra level of self determination after the affair.

[Griffin NoName]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/16/independent-scotland-nhs-budget-cuts-alistair-darling

Both campaigns are getting  dirtier and dirtier so it is a good thing it will stop tomorrrow.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Sounds like a red herring to me, if Scotland has the funds of the North Sea oil, they should be able to fund the Scottish NHS as richly as they desire, among other things.
--
BTW there is no such thing as a clean campaign nowadays. Welcome to the XXI century.

[Griffin NoName]

Can't decide whether to stay awake til 5/6 am - when there may be a definite outcome - I am often awake than but not by arrangement.

There's been a lot of scrapping about how long North Sea oil will last.

When I say Dirty, I don't mean the real dirty stuff, it's mainly been things that have been leaked, like banks moving to London.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I'm sure their minds and souls are very dirty.  (and probably their hands too...)

[Griffin NoName]

So far, I am staying watching as the results come in. So far all NOs - not enough yet to say No will win, but enough to get me hooked on watching.

EDIT 6 a.m. - it's a NO.

[Bluenose]

Thank goodness common sense has prevailed.

[Swatopluk]

Looks like a clear enough no that it will not get contested (55:45).
Now let's see, whether Cameron will renege on his promises.

It's just a false rumour that 'gory' in the anthem will now be officially replaced with 'Tory'

[Griffin NoName]

Thank goodness common sense has prevailed.

Indeed.

Looks like a clear enough no that it will not get contested (55:45).
Now let's see, whether Cameron will renege on his promises.

It's just a false rumour that 'gory' in the anthem will now be officially replaced with 'Tory'

In terms of promises it's actually more what Gordon Brown promised............. supposedly all three parties are "in this together".

Cameron is still in trouble. Many of his back benchers are whinging at his back of a fag packet diplomacy. The problem is they are stuck with him a) because the general election is too close and b) because they seem to think that Boris being an MP, at the time a new party leader is elected, is important.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I'm sure behind closed doors there is no love for Cameron, even if there is a loud sight of relief from them. I doubt Milliband will be able to capitalize much on it though.

[Griffin NoName]

I am sure you are right on both counts Zono.

We are being set up for much devolution talk. new constitution, etc, which while I agree it is needed actually seems a little excessive to me when Isis and Ebola need dealing with. It may after all be totally unnecessary to even have a constitution or a devolved anything or a Union, if those two items are not eliminated. Important and Urgent come to mind.

[Swatopluk]

Nasty me thinks about how these two could be combined to cancel each other out. Since the ISIS guys spill blood on a daily basis, it should be easy to seed them with hemorrhagic fever. It would also greatly reduce their appeal.
No, this is not a serious call for biowarfare.

[Griffin NoName]

.
No, this is not a serious call for biowarfare.

But someone might have a little accident. 

[Swatopluk]

And the oppsition a vaccinant?

[Griffin NoName]

Would you like to call their bluff?

[Swatopluk]

Why should I adress any scarp?
(Except maybe for an echo)

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I've always liked how the crazy are too crazy to be clever, despite the fact that their crazy plans work sometimes (mostly due to incompetence on their counterparts).

A few years back there was talk of certain well known group willing to send followers to central Africa to get infected and spread the 'joy' in western lands. I wouldn't be surprised if they try now that it's easier to catch the bug, although I suspect that -for now- they haven't figured out how to make the whole scheme work.

The problem is that the longer this outbreak continues, the easier it becomes for some crazy person to do their regular crazy stuff.