Scottish Independence

[Griffin NoName]

I just realised if they go for Independence then the weather forecast will be shorter. I wonder if the weather presenters will get paid less?

[Opsa]

Yes, and we will all be forced to wear kilts.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The Catalans in Spain are trying the same although the central government came out saying that a vote would be illegal under the constitution of 1978.

I believe it is stupid for the Catalans, but I'm not so sure about the Scots, the UK is in a weird relation with Europe, to the point of may be leaving the Union, at which point it would make perfect sense for the Scots to separate and ask for integration with continental Europe like the Irish.

Or, who knows, the Scots may be Euroskeptics like the English as well...

[Griffin NoName]

Alec Salmond's declaration/white paper whatever he called it, is full of flaws. For example he says they will still use the £ stirling but the rest of the UK have not said this is Ok with them! etc etc I could go on but it's all much the same, what they will do with no confirmation that they actually can.

Personally I don't want the Scots to go independent. I like them being part of the UK. It might benefit us if they did, but I still don't want them to do it. I don't believe it will benefit them.

edited for spelling

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Technically speaking, there shouldn't be a major issue using an external currency by itself, it's only a matter of purchasing the actual currency from the central bank, for instance, Ecuador decided to forgo it's currency -the Sucre- for American Dollars, and they purchase the actual currency from the Federal Reserve. I believe it is something similar with Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Euro. The downside is that there is no way to affect the exchange rate at all, so if the currency devaluates or reevaluates, there is no central bank policy possible (like buying or selling foreign currency or printing more currency).

[Griffin NoName]

There is an issue if the bank says no you can't have any.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

It makes things a bit more difficult but not by much, currency markets can supply a good deal, and the currency currently in use doesn't need to be replaced.

[Griffin NoName]

  

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/11/main-parties-rule-out-scottish-currency-union

[roystonoboogie]

http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-releases/comment-an-independent-scotland-would-better-off-using-the-pound-without

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Hey, if they want to be truly independent they should use bitcoin...

[Griffin NoName]

Yes, someone on TV tonight was suggesting the bitcoin.

I was winking and waving at Zono, Roy, because I said Scot.Nats were assuming we'd say yeh sure use our currency, and I said they should have asked first cos we might say no (me English hat on). And lo n behold we (England) just said no.

Does Scotland really want to be like Equador?

[Swatopluk]

Well, Serbia tied its currency to the Deutsche Mark for some time too without asking for permission

[roystonoboogie]

The currency belongs to all of the UK, not to England. The Bank of England does not just indemnify the English monetary system, it indemnifies the UK  monetary system. Scottish banks issue their own notes, so we already have our own pound. But if the Bank of England decides that it will not indemnify Scottish banks, Scotland will just walk away and leave remainder of the UK with all the Sovereign Debt. Sure, we lose a bit of credit score, but we will have no debt.

The pound belongs to all of the UK, just like the debt does.

[Griffin NoName]

But if x and y borrow money in their joint name then they are both liable. I cannot see how Scotland can ever just walk away from their share of the debt, though I can see it is an encouraging thought for Yes people.

By the way, we worship tolerance at the TFM, so not trying to provoke.

[roystonoboogie]

I'm not trying to be intolerant or provoke anyone. But what you are being told by the media about the pound is frankly wrong: it does not lie within the gift of the Westminster Government to stop an independent Scotland from using the pound. The pound is a common currency between Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

From the Act of Union 1707:

XVI. THAT from and after the Union, the Coin shall be of the same Standard and Value throughout the United Kingdom, as now in England, and a Mint shall be continued in Scotland; under the same Rules as the Mint in England, and the present Officers of the Mint continued, subject to such Regulations and Alterations as Her Majesty, her Heirs or Successors, or the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit.

The Scots are exercising their universal human right to self-determination, as recognised in the Edinburgh Agreement, by having a referendum on whether to break or redefine certain aspects of that treaty. But that does not mean that we have to give all the pounds back: we want to keep the currency, we want to keep the value equivalency, we even want to keep the monarchy* (a union which dates back a further 102 years, but who's counting?)

The government of the rest of the UK (or rUK as it is known) wants to break or redefine these parts of the treaty. Fine. We'll tell them what we intend to do in that case. We will tell them that we will not take on any of the sovereign debt that the UK pound has incurred, like they are trying to tell us that we can't govern ourselves (we can), we're too small (we're not), or that we'll have to apply to join the European Union (explain how you plan to remove us from the EU first - I have an EU Passport and an EU Driving License, my country is a signatory that is in compliance with all EU treaties, we have members of the European Parliament who represent geographical constituencies in Scotland, and the EU expects to receive repayments for contributions to projects it has made in the geographical area of Scotland).

Scotland can continue to use the pound just like several US 'satellite countries' use the dollar. It's just that the Bank of England (which rUK intends to keep) can't regulate what we do, and they can't force us to repay debts that it has incurred. Without a negotiated monetary union, Scotland will never negotiate a debt repayment plan. Why would we, if rUK are being dicks about it? Hell, we'll even trade oil in the rUK pound and destabilise it, like happens to the dollar.

Scotland has proposed a reasonable and structured withdrawal from the union, keeping some bits, keeping some of the underlying structures. Not an ideal settlement from my perspective, but a realistic one. The UK government is using its statutory and legislative role (rather than its political role) to interfere in the process - David Cameron says that the decision is for the people of Scotland, and then brings the rest of the UK into it. I should point out that following DC and GO's outbursts this week, support for Yes has gone up.

^{*Personally, I'd privatise the monarchy and sell them to the highest bidder, probably Disney.}

[Bruder Cuzzen]

I'm not trying to be intolerant or provoke anyone. But what you are being told by the media about the pound is frankly wrong: it does not lie within the gift of the Westminster Government to stop an independent Scotland from using the pound. The pound is a common currency between Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

From the Act of Union 1707:

XVI. THAT from and after the Union, the Coin shall be of the same Standard and Value throughout the United Kingdom, as now in England, and a Mint shall be continued in Scotland; under the same Rules as the Mint in England, and the present Officers of the Mint continued, subject to such Regulations and Alterations as Her Majesty, her Heirs or Successors, or the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit.

The Scots are exercising their universal human right to self-determination, as recognised in the Edinburgh Agreement, by having a referendum on whether to break or redefine certain aspects of that treaty. But that does not mean that we have to give all the pounds back: we want to keep the currency, we want to keep the value equivalency, we even want to keep the monarchy* (a union which dates back a further 102 years, but who's counting?)

The government of the rest of the UK (or rUK as it is known) wants to break or redefine these parts of the treaty. Fine. We'll tell them what we intend to do in that case. We will tell them that we will not take on any of the sovereign debt that the UK pound has incurred, like they are trying to tell us that we can't govern ourselves (we can), we're too small (we're not), or that we'll have to apply to join the European Union (explain how you plan to remove us from the EU first - I have an EU Passport and an EU Driving License, my country is a signatory that is in compliance with all EU treaties, we have members of the European Parliament who represent geographical constituencies in Scotland, and the EU expects to receive repayments for contributions to projects it has made in the geographical area of Scotland).

Scotland can continue to use the pound just like several US 'satellite countries' use the dollar. It's just that the Bank of England (which rUK intends to keep) can't regulate what we do, and they can't force us to repay debts that it has incurred. Without a negotiated monetary union, Scotland will never negotiate a debt repayment plan. Why would we, if rUK are being dicks about it? Hell, we'll even trade oil in the rUK pound and destabilise it, like happens to the dollar.

Scotland has proposed a reasonable and structured withdrawal from the union, keeping some bits, keeping some of the underlying structures. Not an ideal settlement from my perspective, but a realistic one. The UK government is using its statutory and legislative role (rather than its political role) to interfere in the process - David Cameron says that the decision is for the people of Scotland, and then brings the rest of the UK into it. I should point out that following DC and GO's outbursts this week, support for Yes has gone up.

^{*Personally, I'd privatise the monarchy and sell them to the highest bidder, probably Disney.}

[Griffin NoName]

I'm not trying to be intolerant or provoke anyone.

That was just saying I wasn't. Sorry if you thought I meant you were. I just meant I like discussing it for it's own sake, not grandstanding.

I bow to your wisdom on the media. Actually I wasn't really passing judgement - I was mostly saying I'd predicted what the govt. would say. Since the medi had a clip of GO saying it, I'm inclined to believe he said no 
(of course it could be a video of a look-alike).

On the debt, I think I'm too thick to grasp it. Why doesn't England split from the UK and leave the Scots to pay it off? 

[roystonoboogie]

On the debt, I think I'm too thick to grasp it. Why doesn't England split from the UK and leave the Scots to pay it off? 

If you were to leave us the Bank of England, in theory you could. The debt was accrued to prop up the GBP, if you walk away from the currency you can walk away from the debt. But you also lose your credit rating, exchange rates, you need to replace the pound with something else... pensions... insurance... yadda dadda...

That's why we want to keep the pound, at least in the short term. It doesn't sever all the ties with England, but we don't necessarily want to cut all the ties: we want to be good neighbours, trade partners, co-operate on defence etc. We just don't want our immigration policy decided by what Nigel Farage thinks this week, we want to remove any possibility that you try to privatise our NHS the way you're privatising your own, and we're fed up with subsidising London and the Home Counties at the expense of not just Scotland but the North of England.

[Griffin NoName]

Ah yes. It's like DC wanting to choose which bits of the EU we obey......... like a pick and mix.

............we want to remove any possibility that you try to privatise our NHS the way you're privatising your own, and we're fed up with subsidising London and the Home Counties at the expense of not just Scotland but the North of England.

Not sure about the "you". I never voted for this lot, and neither did anyone I know. To me they are defintely "them". This country is totally undemocratic since the gagging law was passed. And DC never had a mandate to privatise the NHS, he said he wouldn't touch it, so betraying those who did vote for him.

I may support England, but not this England 

(don't get me started on welfare).

[roystonoboogie]

In theory, in a democracy you can get rid of a government you hate by voting against it.

In Scotland we have consistently voted Labour in Westminster elections since 1955 (I think? It's late, I'm tired, can't be bothered with checking facts), and despite that we have ended up with Tory governments who invariably piss all over us since we never vote for them. Political scientists call it 'The Democratic Deficit', and it was the big driver behind devolution in 1997.

But this government... um... nobody voted for them. Seriously, this government was not elected. The Tories did not get a mandate to govern, neither did the Lib Dems. How come they get to say they have a mandate to do anything, let alone restructure the economy and the welfare state? And sell off the NHS?

These guys and gals are not looking at a second term. They are going to throw the next election like Manchester United getting knocked out of the Communities Cup in the first round because they can't be arsed with it. Unfortunately they are up against Glen Miller-Band. Or is it Steve Miller-Band? I can never remember. Either way, they could force the Tories to fail to lose by being even more ineffectual and out-of-touch than them, and then Cameron et al would have to spend another 4 years asset-stripping the place.

We're pretty sure the Geordies will want to secede and join Scotland, Liverpool and most of Merseyside is next on the list for conversion to Scottishness, if your particular part of England would like to start using the Zimbabwean Dollar but not being in debt, give us a shout...

[Griffin NoName]

Wow! You mean my little part of London could attach itself to Scotland? Great idea.

Part of my worry is that even if Labour get in, they won't reverse what the Tories have done.

[roystonoboogie]

Wow! You mean my little part of London could attach itself to Scotland? Great idea.

There is a precedent...

[Griffin NoName]

[Swatopluk]

I was inclined to mention that too. But would the reaction be so mild?

[Aggie]

^{*Personally, I'd privatise the monarchy and sell them to the highest bidder, probably Disney.}

 Them's fighting words!  

Not because I have any particular love of the monarchy, but there's been quite enough of Canadian culture subsumed by The Borg already, thank you very much. We don't have the option of declaring independence from Amrika, despite being a sovereign nation already.  


^{Luckily, the small and thankfully unnoticed-by-Harper department that handles projects designed to brainwash and Canadianize sympathetic Americans into more tolerant and globally-minded individuals approves of this place. Viva the Canadian Cultural Counter-Revolution!}  

[Griffin NoName]

I was inclined to mention that too. But would the reaction be so mild?

Do  you mean the tone of my response if it you who posted instead of Roy?

[Swatopluk]

No, I mean the reaction of the government, if such an important part of England would secede. A simple food blockade would probably not be the answer.

[Darlica]

^{Luckily, the small and thankfully unnoticed-by-Harper department that handles projects designed to brainwash and Canadianize sympathetic Americans into more tolerant and globally-minded individuals approves of this place. Viva the Canadian Cultural Counter-Revolution!}  

I like that idea. Could they send a delegation to the old world too?

[Griffin NoName]

No, I mean the reaction of the government, if such an important part of England would secede. A simple food blockade would probably not be the answer.

I am sure food could be dropped by parachute into the affected area. I suppose we would need passport control points around the M25 motorway.

[Swatopluk]

I rather assume that the exiled Downing Streeters would call in the redcoats.
And unless the seceded London included the full Thames estuary any air drop would require crossing English airspace which would get closed.

[Griffin NoName]

Boris is very keen on airspacce over the Thames Estuary and as Mayor of London does not always tow the party line.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Send the food via V2 rockets...

---
I know the Euro isn't in it's shining moment but if the Irish could do it why not the Scots? Besides, isn't Scotland generating more revenue than England?

[Griffin NoName]

The EU has now said Scotland unlikely to be able to join, or something, can't remember exactly. They say the more negative stuff like this the more likely Scotland will vote yes to independence. It's not clear to me who is calling who's bluff.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Perhaps is a matter of consistency after the same stunt has been suggested in Catalonia and the immediate EU response was that they wouldn't be part of the EU (ie, have to apply and do all the leg work on the same level as other eastern European countries like Serbia), and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a quota in place for new applicants.

[Griffin NoName]

Yes, the news mentioned something about Catalonia, and showed some pictures of Catalonians at a local market.

[Swatopluk]

I think a major reason is that the oil and gas at the basis of Scotland's current boom is going to run out in the foreseeable future. Then the country would become a sink again instead of a source.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I think a major reason is that the oil and gas at the basis of Scotland's current boom is going to run out in the foreseeable future. Then the country would become a sink again instead of a source.

I wonder-- Iceland has made incredible strides using geothermal energy.

I wonder of Scotland could have similar success, if they looked.  (pure speculation-- I have no idea of the geology of Scotland)

[roystonoboogie]

I wonder-- Iceland has made incredible strides using geothermal energy.

I wonder of Scotland could have similar success, if they looked.  (pure speculation-- I have no idea of the geology of Scotland)

I don't know about geothermal, but Scotland has wind and water in huge amounts. We also have lots of land with no people living on it. So we can do plenty of wind, wave and tidal generation (especially tidal! We have lots of sea lochs: kind-of like fjords, big long glacier scars with the tide rushing in and out twice a day).

Brushing aside the objections of Donald Trump, I think we could be the leader in Europe in renewable energy.

I think a major reason is that the oil and gas at the basis of Scotland's current boom is going to run out in the foreseeable future. Then the country would become a sink again instead of a source.

Become a sink again? Are you implying that we are a net drain rather than a net contributor? Any evidence to support that assertion?

As for oil, it will never actually run out. As the easily extracted oil dries up, the price of oil goes up, more difficult to extract oil becomes economically viable, but at a higher price. That is going to be the story across the world - it's just a question of whether Scotland can keep up with the market.

The EU has now said Scotland unlikely to be able to join, or something, can't remember exactly. They say the more negative stuff like this the more likely Scotland will vote yes to independence. It's not clear to me who is calling who's bluff.

Are you talking about Barosso? He is one EU Commissioner. He does not talk for Spain, he does not talk for the EU.

In order for Scotland to join the EU, it would have to leave, or be removed from, the EU in the first place. The territory of Scotland is currently in the EU. I have an MEP, an EU Driving License, an EU Passport, I have a card that entitles me to medical treatment in any EU country. How does Westminster / Brussels / Barosso / whoever plan on removing all these things from me, and the other 5-and-a-bit million people in Scotland, before asking us if we want them back?

There is no mechanism to remove people, territory, a region or a country from the EU without their explicit democratic consent.

[Griffin NoName]

I don't know who I am talking about. May very well be Barosso. I wasn't really paying attention.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I totally forgot about tidal energy-- that is too cool.

I've seen any number of methods to capture this energy, from submersible propeller thingys to bobbing "ducks" to large gates which trap the incoming water (via one way valves) and then let it out through turbines (exactly like current hydro dams).

The only worry, to me, is damage to marine life.