No more immigrants

[Griffin NoName]

The Immigrants are Ruining our Country aka Get Out of Europe party have just come second in a bi-election, increasing their share of the vote by around 28%.

It's always dangerous when people vote for a party on a single issue, and in this case very dangerous. Truly scary to think they might ever win a seat in parliament, or many seats.

[Bluenose]

I am reminded of the saying that says that all complex problems have simple solutions and all of them are wrong.

[Swatopluk]

The British have a reputation of xenophobia since at least the Middle Ages and it had a distinctive influence on the history of the monarchy (just look what the current dynasty had to do to get rid of the 'German taint' an that was harmless compared to the Renaissance).
What seems new is that there is a perceived 'need' for a special party. One would expect that the traditional parties cover that base already. It either says that there is a new malignant strain (bad) or that the other parties were able to get rid themselves of the noxious stuff (good), leaving a gap for the remaining extremists to exploit.
Btw, it does not depend on the actual behaviour of immigrants. At least over here it was once the opposite. As long as the 'foreigners' were easily recognizable they were seen as annoying but harmless but once integration and assimilation started seriously the alarm was sounded about the invisible danger in our midst that would destroy the society from the inside unseen. Anti-Judaism turned into anti-Semitism and its rallying cry was that the assimilated Jews were the true danger to Germandom (and civilisation in general but for the proponents the two were identical anyway). Before that there was no 'need' for a League of Antisemites as a single issue political party. Actually those groups were anything but single issue in reality, they usually had a radical longterm agenda for society beyond getting rid of Jews but this would play second foddle until the declared first goal was accomplished. Compare the Religious Right wing of the GOP. Abortion is the first step, contraception the second, then comes Gilead.

[Sibling DavidH]

The party Griffin is talking about is the UK Independence Party (UKIP).  It was formed in 1993 with the main aim of threatening Tory MPs' seats and so forcing the Tory Eurosceptic wing to assert themselves.  (That BTW is never publically admitted, but was common knowledge when I joined in 1997.)  Now that's really happening.  UKIP has lately also given a voice to those who fear we are being swamped by excessive immigration.  We are not racists and the party has always fought off BNP and National Front attempts to infiltrate it.  I remember personally expelling some BNP people from one of our meetings where they were handing out leaflets.  We have our share of crusty old-time xenophobes, as do the Tories; Labour is not free of them either.

Most of the votes UKIP picked up in yesterday's by-election will have been "not the other three" protests, but it may be that next time we get a seat or two at Westminster, to match our long-term success in the EU Parliament.

BTW when I say "we", I let my membership lapse some time ago when UKIP was going through one of its power struggles, but I have always voted for it since 1997, and intend to carry on.  I may start putting up UKIP posters again at the next election.

It is very easy for our opponents to brand us racists and xenophobes, but in fact we are just a bunch of people who want to get the UK free of the EU.  That is all.

[Swatopluk]

But it's the usual problem of 'sleep with dogs, get their fleas'. Something like that made me abandon the liberal party over here (I was never a member, just a voter though). It by now has turned into something resembling the business wing of the GOP (i.e. without the religious part). What made me go away was an earlier transformation that re-awakened the 'national' wing and drove out the 'heads'* that until then were the main attraction.

DavidH, I have no intent to paint you as racist and/or xenophobic but I think a lot of the 'out of the EU' appeal is not to people that rationally think about cost/benefit (that was what kept the Norwegians out in the end) but to those who would want to have nothing to do with the huns, frogs and dagos. Switzerland is imo similar** but more openly pronounced ('we want you money, not you')

*i.e. true liberals of high standing and reputation
**and a relatively rare case where the most disliked foreigners are not differently coloured and/or funny talking

[Sibling DavidH]

I can only talk about UKIP's official policy, and about the members I have met.  The policy has always been to get us out of an undemocratic, bureaucratic, corrupt organisation which costs us a lot and brings few benefits.  Most members I know feel the same.  Like all Brits, we joke about the 'Frogs', but that's as far as it goes.

Looking at this sick EU dinosaur struggling for its life now, I'd say we were right all along.  The big danger is the damage the monster may do in its death-throes.  It's already done a lot, but things will get much worse as the decay sets in.  There could even be war.

[Griffin NoName]

I agree with Swato, David. I do think UKIP and the declared EU stance is a slippery slope. I don't trust Nigel Farage and I think there are lurking agendas hiding behind a front of specific non-EU policy. But then I am Jewish and believe in the EU as a modern necessity. A statistic of how many ethnic minority people are members of UKIP would  be interestiing.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

From this side of the pond I've always seen the UK as a charming set of contradictions, and the more I think of it I can see certain resemblance with a place like Puerto Rico, also an island and also living with a cultural duplicity. I mention Puerto Rico because despite being a 'territory' of the US they also struggle between being Americans and being Hispanic going to the extreme of a famous referendum in which it was asked to the population if they wanted to become a state of the US or an independent nation and the highest share of votes landed on 'NA/NR'.

I frequently joke that the UK doesn't know in which side of the Atlantic it is located and the news only confirm this, plus the cranky articles from The Economist predicting the end of the EU and the 'we were right all along' stance at the same time the country's credit rating is downgraded.

I don't know if you are aware but many in the US consider the UK as the 51st state, and considering that the so-called 'special relationship' sometimes goes way beyond the call of duty, it is simply amazing how despite the struggle the UK is still part of the EU (albeit in a 'special relationship' also). Are you Europeans or Anglophones?

Perhaps Orwell was right and the future is on the great power of Oceania.

[Sibling DavidH]

I find it wryly amusing that the Left advocates freedom and tolerance for all, except right-wingers.  These cannot be allowed to exist and thoughtcrime must be punished.

Remember this?

[Opsa]

This looks from here to be a messy situation.

I've never thought of the UK as part of the USA. As a matter of fact, I've always thought of the UK as being much more civilized than the USA, and actually a part of Europe, so I'm a bit stunned to hear that there is an anti-immigration thing going on there. I thought that kind of stuff only happened here in the USA, where we have a bunch of European/British immigrants trying to stifle the Native Americans and keep our Mexican neighbors out. Personally, I find this very selfish and intolerant of us, since we could certainly stand to benefit from more people helping pay taxes around here to get the US out of debt.

We are all part of this world. We have a choice to get along or not. Why choose conflict?

[Darlica]

Europe has always suffered from  xenophobia.
Within the continent and towards the rest of the world. Nothing new under the sun here.

One might think that we should have evolved past that phase by now but no, it has changed over the years but it is still strong.

In Sweden we have a party much like UKIP is is called "juni listan" (the June List) I think they even have joined forces in the EU parliament. Much can be said abut this group, it's not openly racist but it moves under the surface as do homophobia and misogyny.
They did pave the way for SD (Sverige Demokraterna) a party built around "stop the immigration" and "if we don't stop the immigration now there will be no Sweden tomorrow" sort of issues, and of cause they want to leave the EU too...

I can only talk about UKIP's official policy, and about the members I have met. 

To be honest David I think this is a bit naive.
One doesn't have to dig deep at all to find forums affiliated with UKIP and with a lot of hate towards people from outside Europe and people fighting for homosexuals rights.

I suggest you take a look at those places before you join or start putting up posters for them again. Because that  is the true core of your UKIP. Can you put your name under those views?

[Lindorm]

I find it wryly amusing that the Left advocates freedom and tolerance for all, except right-wingers.  These cannot be allowed to exist and thoughtcrime must be punished.

Remember this?

And one of the most vocal neo-nazis in Sweden in the ninties who among other things killed a few police officers in the Malexander shootings was coloured and had an african father. One of the most prominent neo-nazis in today's sweden is called Vavra Súk and comes from the former Yugoslavia.
Your point being?

[Lindorm]

As a matter of fact, I've always thought of the UK as being much more civilized than the USA, and actually a part of Europe, so I'm a bit stunned to hear that there is an anti-immigration thing going on there.

Well, yes, the UK has been very succesful at marketing itself as the more civilized alternative. That, however, is in my opinion largely a thin veneer. One thing that has always struck me about British society is the extent of the importance of class and background, and the very thinly (and sometimes not at all) disguised contempt held towards "the lower classes", with each strata of society more or less desperately trying to separate themselves from those below. The paranoia against "chavs", "neds" and other groups of lower-class oiks can be stunning at times, even in so-called respectable media. The fact that you it is OK to inherit a council social housing flat, but actually can lose it if you get a job says something about the views on poverty.

Another peculiarily British institution is the Anti-Social Behaviour Order, where, in essence, a court ruling determines that something that is perfectly legal for the majority of the population becomes illegal for you specifically. You can essentially be ordered to stop wearing a certain style of clothing (or smoking in the street, or having loud sex in your flat, or listening to Eminem...), with the possibility of a prison sentence if you do not comply. Of course, this is only to be used against anti-social behaviour, hence the name -but anti-social according to whom?

The values of our societies are articulated on the fringes, and perhaps we ought to give more thought to what happens at those fringes. Otherwise, we might end up in the same position as a certain police officer in Sweden who last week proclaimed that he saw no problem in arresting "illegal" immigrants who were in institutionalized psychiatric care, but on a day release from their mental hospital. His reasoning was literally that if a person is OK to walk on the street for a few hours, they are mentally stable enough to deport.

[Swatopluk]

And one of the most vocal neo-nazis in Sweden in the ninties who among other things killed a few police officers in the Malexander shootings was coloured and had an african father.

Reminds me of this classic scene
[youtube=425,350]gpuJaTA7Txk[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpuJaTA7Txk

Takes up steam at 3:50 then goes to the crescendo