Right to Die

[Griffin NoName]

Actually not really Right To Die as that implies getting a  friend to knock one off and not get prosecuted. This article is about Euthenasia - nice doctor put me out of my misery. Locked In syndrome must be a living hell.

http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=728255&vId=

I suppose it is too much to hope this will pass into law in the UK, but at least it's getting air time.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Clearly intended to raise awareness on the issue, otherwise he would've taken the ferry to the Netherlands and have it done there.

[Griffin NoName]

Apparently he doesn't want to go to Switzerland (that's where we Brits go). No reason given, so bit of a mystery there. (Although cost may be a factor, it's >£10,000 just for the medical attention, never mind flights etc).

[Roland Deschain]

The right to assisted suicide should be written into law. We put animals down so that they do not suffer, so why not ourselves, specifically when it is the person suffering that wants to die. This is yet another "moral" issue that has religious hang-ups causing problems for its legalisation.

I've known two people in my life who have successfully committed suicide, albeit for non-health-related issues, the last being around this time last year, strangely enough. In these cases, if i'd known that was going to happen, I would have done everything I could to talk them out of it, even to the point of being physical with them, although only in the form of restraint. I have no moral qualms over that, as what we leave behind can be far worse than what we were attempting to escape from. Saying this, I fully understand the reasoning behind the act, even though I disagree.

When it comes to someone wishing to die gracefully, and wanting to escape the pain or senility of illness or old age, then although I would be deeply pained by their decision, I would fully support it, regardless of my qualms. That's not to say that I wouldn't talk through their decision with them, and see if there's an alternative. There is a big difference, in my opinion, between this and the aforementioned reasons for ending your life.

Actually not really Right To Die as that implies getting a  friend to knock one off and not get prosecuted. This article is about Euthenasia - nice doctor put me out of my misery. Locked In syndrome must be a living hell.

Euthanasia is exactly what I thought it was about. What, exactly, do you mean by getting a friend to "knock one off"? That sounds a little notty to me.

[Griffin NoName]

Partly, I was thinking of Debbie Purdy. Accompanying someone to Switzerland when they go there to die apparently counts as aiding there death. Goodness why as really the person accompaning is just along for the ride. Generally when people talk about Euthanasia they mean doctors doing the deed. I think getting a relative/friend to do it is different to a doctor doing it. Surely it would require separate legislation and safeguards?

Dignity in Dying does good work in this area.

[Roland Deschain]

I remember that case. What an ambiguous answer the courts gave her, essentially just pointing to the existing almost 50 year old law.

Those safeguards would be the person wanting to die making a statement about it with independent witnesses, such as a judge, consultant (doctor), or justice of the peace. If someone travels to Switzerland and pays the money, then that's pretty much an assured way of divining intent, but relatives doing it is too open for abuse, hence the safeguard I mentioned just previously.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Abuse is always something to watch closely for, I agree.

But the protection from abuse should not be so onerous, that it actually prevents legitimate actions.

Take the case of an Alzheimer's victim-- before the complete onset of that dred disease, the patent discusses it with close friends and relatives, and makes it known, that once the self is no longer functional, than the patent's body should be terminated-- the mind is gone at that point.

So, much later, when the patient in question cannot even remember their own name, let alone what day it is?  They are to be ended gracefully-- but you cannot discuss it with them at that point-- for one thing, they won't remain lucid enough to follow the entire conversation from beginning to end--they will have forgotten 2 minutes ago. 

But their desires are already on record, so... ?

In many of these horrid religiously oppressive situations, they would not be given the right to die at that point-- because they could no longer give consent--- it would be:  "Consent?  For WHAT?  Hello!  And what's your name again sonny?  Do I know you?  What did you say again? Oooh... shiny! " ...

*sigh*

[Aggie]

Not to dispute the importance of the right to die, but just to play the Devil's advocate...

What if you decide at the onset of Alzheimer's or a similar type of dementia that you want to die gracefully once your mind is gone, but when your mind actually goes you don't have the same opinion?  Is it still ethically appropriate to kill the current state-of-self based on what a past state-of-self decided (possibly out of fear and ignorance)?

Presumably, there would be some sympathy for those who insisted "I DO NOT WANT TO DIE", but as Bob points out, giving consent would no longer be possible.  Would giving lack of consent be equally possible?

One of the reasons I bring this us is that my grandmother experienced severe dementia in the last years of her life, but was arguably happier for it even though she had lost her memory more or less completely. She simply forgot about many of the things that had bothered her (including physical discomforts, such as the arm she broke late in life which ached often).

Fear of losing our shit (figuratively and literally) is certainly a big driver for choosing a merciful exit, but fear of death may kick in later.  There needs to be a clear option to reverse this sort of decision, even if one is not lucid.  The situation is much more clear-cut where one is still mentally healthy and can communicate, but is too physically diminished to actually carry the act out.  It becomes much more murky when one considers a situation where one may be mentally healthy but communication is not possible...  being locked in and not allowed to die is terrible to contemplate, but what about being locked in and wanting to live, but being condemned to die based on a decision one made when not locked in?

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

If I am past remembering who I am?  I have already died, in my opinion, and what is left is a meat-puppet, running on minimal automatic stimulus-response mechanisms.

Put it out of it's misery (even if it is too stupid to be aware it is miserable), is my choice, were it my body.   I say "it" because without a personality? There can be no self-aware gender-- a meat puppet. (as Bender might say).

There is some talk of integration of electronics and human brains-- and I wonder what will happen, when such integration becomes wide-spread, and very complex augmentation to our natural brains.

What would you call it, if most of the protein-based brain tissue has degraded, but the electronic augmentation is fully functional... and due to the reliability (and repairability) of silicon, all the memories of the organic brain are quite intact, and accessible to the personality within the amalgam of organic-inorganic brain gestalt.

Would the near-total artificial-brained individual still be considered a human being?   

In any case, even if my demented self appears "happy" can it really be "happy" without any memories of .. anything?   I'd think not-- and would not grant such a meatbag the rights given to a fully functional personality.

But that's just me-- others may feel differently, and this should be discussed, when creating the living will.

[Griffin NoName]

What if you decide at the onset of Alzheimer's or a similar type of dementia that you want to die gracefully once your mind is gone, but when your mind actually goes you don't have the same opinion?  

This is one of the classic  arguments.

Of course, if your mind is gone, you can't have any opinion. So it only applies to people who are still of sound mind.

My take is if I decide ahead of time that I want to die when my mind has gone such that I cannot give informed consent, and then when my mind has gone I have changed my mind, I must be mad to have changed my mind and no point in keeping a mad old lady alive!  Which of course would have society leaping up and down with horror.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Good point, Griff-- I agree completely.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Let me throw a bone there, the main reason for assisted suicide/euthanasia is suffering, unbearable pain, unreasonable humiliation, drastic disability. The last two are the issue when you are dealing with something like dementia/Alzheimer, are you humiliated even if you don't realize it so? There is a strong disability, but there may be no pain or suffering. Which one is causing harm, leaving nature run it's course or stop the process?

No easy answers.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

No-- but anyone who's in that state requires constant and intensive daily care-- not unlike an infant.

At least with an infant, there is hope for the future, that the infant will learn to become fully human in time-- and the intensive attention is an investment for the future.

But for an old, alzeheimer's person?  The personality has long since died (what are we without our memories?).  To keep them around just to please some selfish family member who cannot bear to part with the body?  I suppose that's okay, if said family member is paying for it out of their own pocket-- like a beloved family pet who cannot see, hear and is incontinent, and pretty much oblivious to reality...

... meh.

I would not wish that fate on anyone of my extended family-- I'd much rather check out when still lucid and still myself.  Let them remember me as I was then, not as a mindless meat-bag who is draining the family fortunes.

Let them buy a goldfish, if they want a mindless "happy-happy-joy-joy" thing to pay attention to.

But that's my $0.02.  Add in $1.98 and you can buy a crappy cuppa coffee...

[Griffin NoName]

....... The last two are the issue when you are dealing with something like dementia/Alzheimer, are you humiliated even if you don't realize it so? There is a strong disability, but there may be no pain or suffering. Which one is causing harm, leaving nature run it's course or stop the process?

Actually Alzheimer/dementia patients generally do suffer great distress. I know you said "may be no...", but I've yet to see anyone with that diagnosis who is not suffering.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

....... The last two are the issue when you are dealing with something like dementia/Alzheimer, are you humiliated even if you don't realize it so? There is a strong disability, but there may be no pain or suffering. Which one is causing harm, leaving nature run it's course or stop the process?

Actually Alzheimer/dementia patients generally do suffer great distress. I know you said "may be no...", but I've yet to see anyone with that diagnosis who is not suffering.

I agree-- the suffering varies, with how much they do remember (which helps them be reminded of how much they don't).

I think the worst place to be, is seeing a face you know you ought to know (from their expression if nothing else) but you cannot-- no matter how hard you try-- remember why this person should be important to you...

I have this once in a while, now!  And nothing is wrong with my memory-- I always do quite well on "test your memory" games.

I can only imagine what it would be like to experience that all the time......

Eventually, the patent is so far gone, that even this pain goes away-- and you have what is essentially a goldfish.... eats, craps and sleeps...   ... occasionally swims, if stimulated enough...

... that's fine, for a goldfish. 

... meh.

Maybe one day, in the not too distant future?  We can have a nice FLASH memory embedded in our brains, to help us remember what we simply must not forget ...
... like who we are, and who really matters most to us.

I suspect that is not all that far off ...