Does Mathematics Exist Independently of the Universe?

[ivor]

A bird does my accounting...

[Aggie]

Some animals and birds can count, usually along the lines of one, two, a lot. So humankind may be irrelevant.

Intelligent life in general, then.  The main point being that mathematics IMHO is capable of existing without life, given that the organization of the solar system, galaxy, universe etc. follow mathematical principles.

[Swatopluk]

A bird does my accounting...

The software used by the German federal agency colelcting the income tax is named ELSTER (magpie; as in thieving...)

The main point being that mathematics IMHO is capable of existing without life, given that the organization of the solar system, galaxy, universe etc. follow mathematical principles.

We still don't know that. We can describe it by math but as said above not even solve rather 'simple' things like the 3-body problem (only approximate).
We also can describe atoms as pieces of wood connected by metal wire

[Lindorm]

Some animals and birds can count, usually along the lines of one, two, a lot. So humankind may be irrelevant.

Intelligent life in general, then.  The main point being that mathematics IMHO is capable of existing without life, given that the organization of the solar system, galaxy, universe etc. follow mathematical principles.

But aren't those mathematical principles very much a thing in the eye of the beholder?

[Sibling DavidH]

  In the brain of, anyway!

[Lindorm]

Having spent the evening ironing and packing for tomorrow's upcoming trip, I can report that the collars of ladies' blouses are positively non-euclidian surfaces!

Now, did I hear Erich Zann play on his violin in the background... ? 

[Aggie]

But aren't those mathematical principles very much a thing in the eye of the beholder?

Colour is very much a thing in the eye of the beholder - one can easily say that colour does not exist independently of eyes (and some colours do not exist in some eyes), yet the wavelengths of light that are perceived exist independently of eyes.  The equations that describe electromagnetic radiation can exist independently of EM radiation, and EM radiation obviously can exist without the equations being known....

[Aphos]

As a mathematician, I will weigh in on this question.

Mathematics is a branch of logic.  It is based on axioms and the logical consequences of those axioms.  Different axioms can be used, leading to different mathematics.

So, no, math is not part of the universe.  For example, the number ONE does not have a physical reality, though it can be used abstractly to represent a single item.

That said, however, math is a great tool for modeling the universe.

Up until about 1800, the development (or discovery, depending on your philosophy of mathematics) of math was driven largely by physics.  Starting about 1800, new abstract maths were developed.  Some of these have since found applications in real world problems, such as group theory being applied to quantum physics, but for the most part math has been done for math's sake over the last 200 years.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

As a mathematician, I will weigh in on this question.

Mathematics is a branch of logic.  It is based on axioms and the logical consequences of those axioms.  Different axioms can be used, leading to different mathematics.

So, no, math is not part of the universe.  For example, the number ONE does not have a physical reality, though it can be used abstractly to represent a single item.

That said, however, math is a great tool for modeling the universe.

Up until about 1800, the development (or discovery, depending on your philosophy of mathematics) of math was driven largely by physics.  Starting about 1800, new abstract maths were developed.  Some of these have since found applications in real world problems, such as group theory being applied to quantum physics, but for the most part math has been done for math's sake over the last 200 years.

(emphasis mine)

Proving the old joke:

There once was an argument between a high priest and a prime minister and a mathematician, over which was better to have-- a wife or a mistress?

The priest argued that the wife was superior, for she was faithful and could be supportive.

The prime minister argued that the mistress was better, because of the elements of danger she represented, which added spice to the relationship.

The mathematician argued that it was best to have one of each-- and that each was aware of the other.  That way, you could tell your wife you were at your mistresses, and you could tell your mistress you were with your wife-- then you could get some real math done...

[Sibling DavidH]

There are three kinds of mathematician: those who can add up, and those who can't.