Concepts Aliens Would Find Difficult

[Griffin NoName]

"M25: Hazard anticlockwise at J12"  - newsflash on transport news.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M25 is the motorway that encircles London and J12 is obviously Junction 12.

But anticlockwise only has meaning if one views the map of the world knowing what we call "South". In fact, it took me a moment or two to work it out.

Or am I just suffering from my age?  I know my brain is having increasing trouble making connections.

[Swatopluk]

Clockwise/anticlockwise are not dependent on the North/South direction but on the arbitrary definition of left/right. A mirror image of the map would not describe the real thing. East/West is not arbitary soleley due to the rotation of the Earth. The axis can be defined by the fact that the Earth is not a sphere but an ellipsoid but the notation of the rotation as eastwards is arbitrary again. North/South can be defined by other assymetries (like the geographical features).

[Opsa]

I think that aliens might have a hard time understanding the concept of racism, as we might all look the same to them, with just a slight degree of hue variation.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

A few years back I read a book that could be translated as "Left and Right in Cosmos". I can't find the book now so no clue as to the author nor can I find anything similar in Amazon, so who knows what the name was in English.

In general the book made the point about how to define left & right/clockwise & counterclockwise in a fundamental way (that I forgot but was related to particles and/or spin).

If I find the book (after painting the house all the books are all over) I'll give you the reference.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I think that aliens might have a hard time understanding the concept of racism, as we might all look the same to them, with just a slight degree of hue variation.

^ That. Also killing in the name of supposedly peaceful religions.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I think that aliens might have a hard time understanding the concept of racism, as we might all look the same to them, with just a slight degree of hue variation.

^ That. Also killing in the name of supposedly peaceful religions.

And that governments reserve the "right" to kill seemingly indiscrimantly, but individuals are forbidden to do so.  To an alien, the difference may not be obvious.... are not governments at the behest and permission of the people?  If not, why don't the people simply disobey, or leave? 

[Griffin NoName]

Clockwise/anticlockwise are not dependent on the North/South direction but on the arbitrary definition of left/right. A mirror image of the map would not describe the real thing. East/West is not arbitary soleley due to the rotation of the Earth. The axis can be defined by the fact that the Earth is not a sphere but an ellipsoid but the notation of the rotation as eastwards is arbitrary again. North/South can be defined by other assymetries (like the geographical features).

Ah! But!  London works on a North South basis. (this is endemic, or epidemic, or something). I can only work out East and West once having established North-South.

I think possibly I got the answer I needed quicker using my North-South method than by working through your explanation Swato, although I am grateful for it and may try it next time I have a clockwise problem. (I can never remember if the mains water stop-cock is off or on anticlockwise and this is a problem because plumbers turn it off or/and on so far/hard it is virtually impossible for me to turn and hence work out which direction to apply turning pressure). (another thing an alien may not understand).

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I thought of still another thing.

Threaded fasteners, typically called "screws", "bolts", "hexnuts" and similar things.

There is a coarse or fine spiral groove carved into what is essentially a modified nail.  The nail's head is also modified so that a suitable tool can apply radial torque, to effect a rotation parallel with it's length.

Small objects crafted to fit upon the fine thread versions are also available, in effect drawing the head and this fastener tightly together, holding two or more components together by stint of mechanical force.   Friction plays a key role, obviously.

Now.  It's common in First World countries (and by extension, world-wide I imagine) for the spiral groove to be so created, that clockwise radial torque applied, when looking at the head end, and the shaft away from the viewer will tighten the fastener.  Anti-clockwise rotation loosens.

The choice of clockwise--tight, anti-clockwise-loose is a human convention.  Likely arose due to the predominance of right-handed persons, and the ease of the right-hand in making clockwise circular motions.  Thus, using these fasteners manually (when they were first introduced) it's easier to tighten them, than to loosen them for the majority of people.

To an alien, though, a rotating helix to hold items together might be totally bizarre.  What if their manipulating limbs do not have an easy way to effect radial motion?  What if anti-clockwise motion is easier for them? 

In the latter case, they would find our predominance of clockwise rotating fasteners maddening.   

In the former case, either direction would be both puzzling and frustrating, should they be desirous of reverse engineering our artifacts.

They might find our choice of head design odd, too.  The simple slot design is obvious, it allows generous torque, is simple to make, but is not pleasing to behold.  And, in conditions of very high torque, it's definitely at a disadvantage to other designs.

Humans have explored various designs, but the simple hex design seems to have become a de-facto standard.  It is elegant in appearance, in it's simplicity.  If sufficient materials are chosen, it withstands tremendous torque.  It can even be combined with other designs, giving a wider range of tool choices.

Another older design, but not as common, is the simple square.  At one time it was the dominant shape, next to the slotted one, due to it's easy manufacture, especially if done by hand.   But, being square, it limits the range of motion needed to effect rotation: with only 1 time in 4 to get proper alignment.  That's every 90 degrees.  Contrast this with the hex, which has 3 in 6 times, if the tool is angled. 

One design humans never really utilized in large numbers, was the triangle shape.   I always wondered why that was.....

I can only imagine trilateral symmetry aliens would wonder, too.

[Swatopluk]

There is on Earth a bias towards spirals in one orientation (see sunflowers, snails). Whether there is a connection to the orientation of the DNA helix is disputed but considered unlikely by most. But if you have read Lem's Star Diaries, you'll know that it is due to those drunken aliens with the common cold that turned the brew that accidently spawned life on Earth counterclockwise.

I have read about the attempts to find an 'objective' definition of left/right via quantum physics (I think Martin Gardner wrote about that) but to my knowledge there has been no succcess yet. There was some hope that Ernst Mach was right and the cosmos itself rotates. Some data suggested a certain (polarization?) shift in light that came from long distances but newer measurements seem to have buried it.

[Swatopluk]

Also, certain equipment is deliberately fitted with a thread in the other direction (most notably oxygen bottles) for safety reasons.

[Griffin NoName]

And as for child proof bottle caps.................... !!  ...even I cannot do them and I am not an alien.

[Swatopluk]

Those are safe against anyone but children

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

There is on Earth a bias towards spirals in one orientation (see sunflowers, snails). Whether there is a connection to the orientation of the DNA helix is disputed but considered unlikely by most. But if you have read Lem's Star Diaries, you'll know that it is due to those drunken aliens with the common cold that turned the brew that accidently spawned life on Earth counterclockwise.

I have read about the attempts to find an 'objective' definition of left/right via quantum physics (I think Martin Gardner wrote about that) but to my knowledge there has been no succcess yet. There was some hope that Ernst Mach was right and the cosmos itself rotates. Some data suggested a certain (polarization?) shift in light that came from long distances but newer measurements seem to have buried it.

If the universe itself rotates, one simply *has* to ask: with respect to what, exactly?

Itself?  That is senseless-- as senseless as a human observing the "moving" stars, and imagining they are what is moving rather than the other way 'round.

If the entire universe were rotating, so?  How could you tell?  And in reference to what?  And, would that point of view (if any) actually *be* a point?  Such that "right-hand rotation" and "left-hand rotation" may be a meaningless concept?  What if the "point" of view was that of super-dimensional space, such that our universe appears to be but a point within it?  Which means it's "rotation" is both....depending on which "direction" you look at it from...

For, lest we forget, the convention to view the bolt/screw from the head-end, looking away is just that:  a convention.

You could just as easily view it from the pointy-end, with the head away from you.  In that case?  The predominant rotation becomes left-handed...

It's all a matter of perspective....

[Kaliayev]

Depending how alien the alien is, all concepts we take for granted might be difficult. Xenopsychology is one of those things few Sci-fi writers have ever touched upon convincingly, IMO, reducing other species to either cookie-cutter reflections of their culture with little to no variations, or either essentially human, with a different trait or two.

This may be because the vast majority of Sci-Fi writers are nothing but hacks.

[Swatopluk]

I do not totally get Mach's idea but there seems to be no need for a 'in relation to what'. Seems to be the same kind of problem as with 'what is the universe expanding into'*. From what I heard is that, if the cosmos rotates, the light would undergo a measurable change dependent on the distance/time it takes to reach us. Sorry, my knowledge of physics is ratehr limited.

*although in theory the change in volume could be measured (which some physicists I know deny because on large scales the concept of volume (and to a lower degree lenght) as applied to space becomes meaningless).

[Griffin NoName]

This is all very errudite. I doubt aliens would undertsand the posts in this thread.

[Opsa]

Do you mean that if we were reading these on another planet we wouldn't understand them?

_{Egads, I am not understanding some of them, all ready. What can it mean? What can it mean?}

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I do not totally get Mach's idea but there seems to be no need for a 'in relation to what'. Seems to be the same kind of problem as with 'what is the universe expanding into'*. From what I heard is that, if the cosmos rotates, the light would undergo a measurable change dependent on the distance/time it takes to reach us. Sorry, my knowledge of physics is ratehr limited.

*although in theory the change in volume could be measured (which some physicists I know deny because on large scales the concept of volume (and to a lower degree lenght) as applied to space becomes meaningless).

Hmmm......I think you're correct, if you assume the objects within the Universe are rotating, but the "base fabric" is not.

By that, I mean the stuff through which the light must travel could not be moving, to see an effect on the light as everything else rotates.

If, on the other hand, the base stuff rotates as well as light, then you'd see no effect--- it would all rotate together in that case, and may as well *not* be rotating from our perspective.

[Griffin NoName]

Beginning to think a couple of folk posting in this thread actually must be aliens

[Aphos]

One thing I think aliens would find extremely confusing is NASCAR fans.  Now racing itself...driving in a race ...might be fun.  But what is the attraction to watching cars go round and round and round  and round a track for hours on end?

[The Meromorph]

I'm an alien. I have a certificate to prove it...

I find US politics difficult to understand.

[Swatopluk]

Drop the premise that anyone involved is sane and all begins to make sense.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Drop the premise that anyone involved is sane and all begins to make sense.

^ That.

One thing I think aliens would find extremely confusing is NASCAR fans.  Now racing itself...driving in a race ...might be fun.  But what is the attraction to watching cars go round and round and round  and round a track for hours on end?

What *I* don't get is the NASCAR video game. Seriously, even MORE boring than the real thing. I imagine aliens would agree with me.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

One thing I think aliens would find extremely confusing is NASCAR fans.  Now racing itself...driving in a race ...might be fun.  But what is the attraction to watching cars go round and round and round  and round a track for hours on end?

What *I* don't get is the NASCAR video game. Seriously, even MORE boring than the real thing. I imagine aliens would agree with me.

Sillies.  It's *not* about the cars, the track or even the race.

It's about the beer.

And a not-so-secret desire to see great honkin' car crashes.

Beer and crashes.  That is what NASCAR is all about.  Never let anyone tell you otherwise....

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

That makes sense, I suppose. I watch hockey for the fist fights and because I take a cat-like joy in watch small things shoot around.

[anthrobabe]

Bob you nailed it!
I'm a NASCAR person- and it's the beer (sort of for me) and the crashes-- and cars going really really fast in a controlled (HA-HA) environment-- I don't actually watch the entire race, just keep it going for background noise and the good bits (start, middle, crashes, end).
btw  I am entirely sane! 

I wouldn't play a NASCAR video game-- no point to that.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

btw  I am entirely sane! 

Rule One of Scriblerus's Life Philosophy: Thou shalt not believe those that doth say such things, for verily, they lie.

I wouldn't play a NASCAR video game-- no point to that.

It doesn't seem to sell very much. I think my store has maybe two copies used and they never seen to move.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I believe George Carling said it best:
[youtube=425,350]m5NaartjBEY[/youtube]
I miss that guy. 

[anthrobabe]

I like fire trucks too!

[youtube=425,350]8ytmlebweMI&feature[/youtube]

one of my favs    http://www.fdvideos.com/


Like this----- http://www.fdvideos.com/media/8/House_on_fire/

Wonder what the aliens would think of it???

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

If I find the book (after painting the house all the books are all over) I'll give you the reference.

I found the book: The new ambidextrous universe by Martin Gardner. The version I read was a translation from the original written in the 70s but the point of how to tell an alien how to distinguish left from right was through the asymmetry found in an experiment by Chien-Shiung Wu in the 50s that proved that when you have Cobalt 60 close to absolute zero it's emissions become asymmetric relative to the spin of the nucleus (beta emissions are higher on the south).

[Griffin NoName]

.......... when you have Cobalt 60 close to absolute zero it's emissions become asymmetric relative to the spin of the nucleus (beta emissions are higher on the south).

Sounds like my astigmatism which has changed from 30 degrees north east to 10 degress north east - aliens may well consider our eyes sub-standard.

[Tigger_the_Wing]

.......... when you have Cobalt 60 close to absolute zero it's emissions become asymmetric relative to the spin of the nucleus (beta emissions are higher on the south).

Sounds like my astigmatism which has changed from 30 degrees north east to 10 degress north east - aliens may well consider our eyes sub-standard.

In fact, they might be baffled that we think we can know everything about what we 'see' by looking - when our eyes only detect a very narrow band of electromagnetic radiation. They might also wonder at the idea of 'colour' which is a concept generated entirely within our brains as a way of explaining to ourselves the different wavelengths of the radiation our eyes detect.

Thinking if this, how come 'colour-blindness' (a reduced ability to identify specific colours based on light wavelengths) is considered a defect, but 'perfect pitch' (an ability to identify specific notes based on sound wavelengths) is considered freakish? 

[Earthling]

I'd say that colo(u)r blindness is considered a defect because it reduces one's ability to participate normally in some social activities - I am so afflicted, and shopping for clothing is not an activity that I can participate in productively. Perfect pitch, on the other hand, confers an advantage to a musician, and (perhaps to overcome feelings of inadequacy) regular folks say stuff like "wow, he's great, but that's just because he's a freak". Because of course everyone knows that having perfect pitch obviates any need to study a piece or practice an instrument. [/sarcasm]

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I can tell you that musicians see perfect pitch with awe and envy (we all would love to have it). According to one of our ear training teachers it could be thought although none in my group could do it. I also read somewhere that perfect pitch is quite common among the speakers of chinese languages because certain words rely on specific frequencies.

In any case, it would seem that anyone with any talent above the norm is considered a 'freak' by the 'masses', in consequence the best thing to do is ignore the masses and be happy. 

[Earthling]

the best thing to do is ignore the masses and be happy. 

Hear, hear!! I couldn't agree more. I have been soooo de-stressed since I stopped caring what people might think. Now if I could just get the missus to think the same way...

[Swatopluk]

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo - Quintus Horatius Flaccus (aka Horace)

[beagle]

Chinglish

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I disagree, imagine the translation errors with an alien language.