Welcome to the Monoculture

[Jayna]

Zan! Don't go, it's not like that guy's in charge here. Just because one person doesn't think you're a good fit doesn't mean everyone else will feel the same way.

[Aggie]

I think I'm gonna stop ranting.  It seems to be followed by threadjacking, and then me being asked 3 pages later to defend things I didn't say.  Also, giving each person's posts individual attention is now somehow equal to me saying I'm "better than someone", so I have to mash everyone's answers into one post, where it's really hard to read.

I'm really upset about the strawman thing.  I was told this place was different.

I think there's been some mis-reading of styles  - being well used to the Toadfish manner of discourse I am not reading any of the posts here as being intended as a challenge (in the confrontational sense of the word).  Honestly, this place IS different - so it might be help to point out some of the differences:

The style here was largely evolved as a reaction to the frequent screaming matches in a particular faith-centric forum.  The Toadfish habit is to offer differing viewpoints and anecdotal outtakes for consideration as opposed to arguing from a single angle (many of us are also enthusiastic Devil's Advocates and will deliberately take a dissenting angle - often to our own beliefs or opinions).  The cohesion of the group depends largely on the ability to explore multiple facets of a topic without being read as combative.  That's where the core virtues of tolerance, humility and respect come in - tolerance of dissenting opinions and the humility to accept that if someone disagrees with or picks at certain aspects of an idea, opinion or belief, they are not disrespecting the idea.   Since we follow a fairly informal, non-confrontational style of discussion, we've largely fallen out of the habit of responding to every single post in a thread, and tend to quote only short excerpts here and there as launching-off points. This in part makes multiple response posts unnecessary and in part makes them seem particularly out of place compared to the ebb-and-flow style of discussion.  OTOH, we do tend to generate a lot of massive, rambling compound posts (this one here being a prime example); while these can be difficult to read, when done right they are small pieces of literary art and a joy both to create and to read (this one here NOT being a prime example ).

That being said, we are champion thread-drifters and tend to wander all over the place in discussions.  Some areas of the forum tend to be a little more focused (Serious Discussion and the Debating Chamber) but side-tracks and diversions are almost never discouraged here. Accusations of thread jacking are usually only self-applied as such: or    (see Griffin's post re: parking early in the thread).

The wandering style can make things a little messy, so when we go way too far off topic someone will usually just request that the diverted part of the thread off be lopped off and rooted somewhere else (propagation by cuttings, if you like ).  The Snark and Rant area actually isn't considered to be overly serious and is probably quite prone to thread drift compared to other places.  Incidentally, it didn't wander into noxious bodily functions on its own  , but that sort of thing is far from unusual, so please don't take that as a criticism or calling-to-task for something earlier in the thread.

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In the context of this thread, your OP was a fine rant and stood alone quite well.  Looking back, I notice that I was the first one to start picking it apart ( ) but honestly I didn't mean to cause offense or detract from the rant itself, just to provoke a little further exploration of the concept.  I can definitely say that I agree with the spirit of the rant and have often visited this theme in RL discussions (ask my wife). If anything, I think I interpreted it as a bit old hat and self-evident to anyone who's not completely bogged down in the monoculture, so to speak, and therefore found it more interesting to take a contrarian stand than to offer an unqualified agreement.

Another factor is that I think that I've personally shifted my social viewpoint from the macrocultural towards intercultural and interpersonal interactions as I've gotten older and tend to be much more interested in people and things that stand out from the monocultural wasteland than at fussing at the shortcomings of the system.  Put me in a gravel parking lot and I'll probably start looking for pretty rocks instead of lamenting the lack of scenery  - actually, that's not a probably, the last time I was working in a gravel parking lot I found a rock with a whole bunch of fossilized snail and mussel shells embedded in it; I'm currently collecting small, round stones as I find them.   

I am an odd blend of pessimist and optimist; I generally assume the worst but celebrate anything that does not conform to that assumption.  I find this ensures I'm rarely disappointed by the big crap and often delighted by small things.

"Pyrogy"?  I think back East, in the US, they call those "pot stickers".   I think... yes?   

I saw a whole show on it from "America's Test Kitchen's", about how simple it is to make your own superior item.   Although, all the one's I've had, were either veggie or meat-filled.  I've not had, nor heard of a cheese one.... sounds yummy.

Pyrogy is specifically the Eastern European food (the "Chinese Perogies" I reference = potstickers, more or less, at least as I've heard the term applied).  Potato and cheese is the best-known version, sauerkraut is somewhat popular, and it's possible even to have sweet fillings.  I'm sure they are made in other countries, but they are mostly associated with the Ukraine.   Dumplings (filled unleavened dough, not bread-cooked-in-broth) of one sort or another are ubiquitous in most parts of the world.  Sauerkraut perogies are very much analogous to kimchi mandu, for example, and meat dumplings are everywhere.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

and meat dumplings are everywhere.

Are you talking about empanadas?

[Aggie]

I was focusing more on varenyky types ("boiled things"), but there's that whole group that crosses over towards using bread or pastry as the wrapper that is also similar.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Now, here in the States there is something else against them, which is the IMNSHO the idiotic measure to make elections in a regular working day, as opposed to a Sunday when at least a majority of people isn't working. If you aren't paid for making a line (for hours in some cases) and will get a reprimand (or even get fired) in such cases, why risk your job on something that will change little of your practical life?

Actually?  There are serious repercussions, if a person asks for a bit'o'time to go vote, and is refused.  Or, if he/she votes and is reprimanded by the boss for it.  But then again?  Many poor do not know this law is on the USA books, or they work "unofficially" (cash/under the table/streets/etc).

However, I think the chief cause [for not voting] is belief that it matters not how they vote, or even if they vote at all-- you are correct about that.

And, while individually a vote matters little or not at all, collectively, votes add up.  If the poor ever figured this out, and started voting in their own interests, instead of what they're told to do (by lying "pastors", by lying politicians*, by misleading ads) we'd soon have fewer poor, and even fewer rich... 

________

_{* sorry for the redundancy.... but a "lying politician" is an especially heinous subset of the typical politician. Yes, we are aware that a politician lies every time he/she opens his/her mouth.  But a lying politician is far worse than that-- he/she actually *believes* the lies he/she is spouting are true ...}   


__________________________

Edit:  reply to Zan's post

Thanks, but when we were directed here, we were given an impression of the board which seems to have been inaccurate.  Since then, the person who invited us has told me that I am not a suitable candidate for this board.

So without any fuss or hysterics, I shall depart.  Thanks for having me, it's been fun.

I, for one, would be sorry to see you go:  you've managed to do something no one else has managed in a long while-- create enough interest in a subject, to get me to post several times.  I faithfully look in at the Monastery daily.  Most days?  I just say to myself, "mmmm-hmmm" and close the tab-- sans comment.

A bit'o'strring up roun' here is a good thing, even if you don't quite match the drapes...

[Griffin NoName]

What I do sometimes instead of double post is hit quote, copy, back to my post, and hit the "edit" button. It's easy. Or I just go quote, copy, back, quote next comment, paste, etc. That's easy too. As long as I am only writing in repsonse to one quote at a time I find it manageable.

We really don't have many rules compared to most forums, so it's nice to have those we do have respected.

If you look around, you can see pretty much what our style is.

Also, we expect people to disagree and discuss, but not argue.

How about monoculture in forums?

[Opsa]

Ha! good one. I was wondering if this would wander that way, eventually.

I guess I stand with Aggie. I did the openly nonconformist thing back in the last century (and I won't say how far back). Now my nonconformity is more of an inward thing, and I'm happy to report that the older I get, the less self-conscious I feel, and oddly enough, it makes me display my differences less. I don't have to have blue hair any more. I know I'm off from the average, and that's enough for me.

Similarly, I do not feel the need to rail against McDonald's. I just don't give them my business on a regular basis. I don't make a big deal about being a vegetarian to people, either. I don't care what you eat, but personally I don't feel like contributing to the big malnutrition and deforestation companies, so let me eat my overpriced organic salad, dammit.

People make their own choices about where they go and whether or not they will support a company. In the end, it will not be simply complaining about monoculture that will solve the problem, but allowing people to educate themselves and make their own decisions might. Everyone making the same decision could be thought of as conformity only if they are making it based on fitting in. If they are making decisions based on their own personal interest in the world, then they are not conforming. But that's just my opinion.

Yahoo for yours, too.

[pieces o nine]

^ * rumble *



As I age, I take great delight in noticing how very homogeneous and must-conform an intentionally nonconformist culture can be, in all its expressions.

While I dislike the elements of monoculture which (I think!) I understand from Zan's comments, the tension between conform/rebel seems endemic to the human condition.

(A current US culture example: all those people screaming at so-called public health debates, doing their individual bests to stand out from the crowd in a competitive effort to prevent *others* from straying from their crowd's preferred mindset...)

(I suspect the same people vigilantly monitor their neighbors for any deviations from Homeowner's Association-approved paint colors, landscaping, holiday displays, fraternizing, parking arrangements, etc., while writing strongly worded letters to their local Times  about the importance of defending their personal freedoms and the looming threat of Government / Public Education / Hollywood / Science / any other religion / Art / et cetera from encroaching on their Personal Rights...)

A red rose is not selfish because it wants to be a red rose. It would be horribly selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red and roses.

[Jayna]

As I understand the concept, monoculture is not about conforming/rebelling, at all. It is about the disappearance of discrete, distinctive regional cultures separated by geography.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

As I understand the concept, monoculture is not about conforming/rebelling, at all. It is about the disappearance of discrete, distinctive regional cultures separated by geography.

I cannot substantially disagree.

And I must ask:  so?



In this modern era, we still find adherents to ancient cultures, right here in the USA-- the Navajos come immediately to mind.

I also see that within the greater whole, there are emerging smaller sub-cultures if you will:  the emo types, the PIB's*, the hip-hop-ers, vampire-wanna-be's, and so on and so on.  (Saw a kid today, who was desperately trying to fit into the hip-hop crowd-- pants down around his knees, 3 layers of under-pants on (each "artfully" exposed), hat turned around to a silly angle, too-loud rap music on his player.  And?  The kid was whiter than I am... _{(to quote Dennis Leary)}

The language of each of these has it's own internal consistency, spelling, grammar and other cultural-based rules-- as rigidly followed as any other "mainstream" culture.

I think the more we (we--as a species, here) move to global monoculture, the more these sub-groups will emerge, distinct and individual.

So what if the main fast-food is a multinational chain?  If the people who frequent them are as individual as snowflakes?   Humans are what they choose to be-- regardless of the outer trappings, regardless of the shopping preferences.

I don't see even a remote danger of humanity becoming a plain box of vanilla wafers-- if nothing else?  The young people won't stand for it; they'll create something--anything, to separate their generation from the previous one.

And no matter how subtle the variances, they will always be with us.

_____

As a flip side-- as I wrote this, and reviewed it for errors, I thought about it a bit.

We are in the Information Age:  never before in the history of humankind, has storing, cataloging, preserving information been so cheap and anti-labor intensive.   In the past, just writing a single book was literally the labor of a person's lifetime-- a person *might* write two-- if he/she lived long enough, and had enough money lying about.   And?  If, by some miracle, the book was laboriously copied?  As many as 10 people might actually read it... !

Then along comes cheap printing-- and a glut of both historical records, but a plethora of preservation of What Happened On Such-and-Such Day.   But?  Storage of books is still costly, time-consuming and labor intensive.

Now?

Since 2006, I, personally, have written more than 20,000 posts over on Topix.  This is likely the equivalent to at least a novel in length-- maybe two (I tend to go on...).  And just in my spare time...

...and the storage and preservation of those words is free.  The cost is so incredibly low?  It's more or less ignored by the providers of Topix.

My point?  Information preservation is essentially free, these days.

And the preservation of odd or unusual or interesting small cultures is more or less a given:  sure, everyone who lived that culture may pass on, but it's art, it's language, it's mores, it's heart?  These can be preserved like never before in human history.

And with the advent of global communication?  If there remains 3 or 5 or 21 people who wish to participate in that culture?  The global inter-tubes permits them to "gather" together for mutual support.

_____

In my opinion, I think the more the "monoculture" appears to encroach?  The more individual people will become, as a counter-response.  Sure, the majority may frequent McD's or StarBucks-- so what?  Eating at McD's does not make one into a Ronald, any more than eating eggs makes one into a chicken...


_____

<sub>* PIB's.... People In Black..... sometimes called "goths".   Supposedly non-conformist, but to join their sub-culture, you have to wear black, have lots of peircings, have black hair, pale (or whitened) skin and only listen to their music.  To fully non-conform, of course.   

In a nod to a South Park episode...</sub>

[Jayna]

The only real rebuttal I have to any of this is already contained in my earlier post from a few days ago; that travelling to different cultures generates a very unique kind of intellectual stimulation and I'm sad to see that disappear.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

As I understand the concept, monoculture is not about conforming/rebelling, at all. It is about the disappearance of discrete, distinctive regional cultures separated by geography.

I don't think they're going to disappear. They're just going to change, that's all. People are going to take what they like from the super culture and mix and match it with their own individual cultures.

The only real rebuttal I have to any of this is already contained in my earlier post from a few days ago; that travelling to different cultures generates a very unique kind of intellectual stimulation and I'm sad to see that disappear.

I'm fairly sure that it's not going to disappear--it's just going to change. There are going to be elements you recognize from the super culture (which might make it less immediately stimulating), but they're going to be modified to fit into and with the original culture of the area (which is where the fun is--how did they change it? What does it mean to them?).

Though perhaps you can argue that what makes a culture unique can be diluted or touristified, like Indian blankets. Meanings can be lost that way or sacrificed in the name of profit.

[Aggie]

The only real rebuttal I have to any of this is already contained in my earlier post from a few days ago; that travelling to different cultures generates a very unique kind of intellectual stimulation and I'm sad to see that disappear.

The bit of international traveling (mostly Asia/Pacific) I've done suggests this is unlikely to happen any time soon. North America certainly is prone to homogenization of the shopping experience, which I put firmly down to car-culture. Where the main mode of transportation is personal vehicles, the easiest way to shop or eat is to go somewhere with a large parking lot - this means big-box stores and/or strip malls.  Since these are standardized, it's more convenient for consumers to simply visit the closest outlet of a chain rather than drive across the city to find the BEST independent vendor for a particular good.  Where cars are not ubiquitous, or where parking/real estate is very expensive, it's preferable to cluster similar types of products in a particular district of a city so that those taking transit and/or on foot can assess all the options quickly and easily.  We in N.A. lose out on competitiveness to a large degree, because instead of having 50 options in 1 location, we tend to get 1 option in 50 convenient locations, but no real choice.

On the other hand, North America has the advantage of major waves of immigration from all over the world, and new immigrants bring in major heterogeneity in the shopping and dining areas (BIG advantage of living in a city as opposed to a small town).  Immigration patterns also tend to be highly regional (new immigrants tend to go where there are lots of people who speak the same language, eat the same food and share the same background), so while we may be losing last century's minor regional variations on Euro-American culture, in many cases this is being replaced by completely new and more variable regional cultures.  Greater Vancouver comes to mind as a great example of a city whose cultural identity is strongly tied to the immigrant community (traditionally Chinese but now increasingly Sikh in many areas).

I suspect that over the next century we'll see a continuation of the homogenization of staple items but a much greater variety of the things that are really worth getting variety in.  Really, if you need a hammer, do you need a local hammer or will the local big-box hardware store suffice?  I've noticed that the local grocery stores, OTOH, are now being forced to carry a much greater variety of ethnic food products to compete with small retailers, and there's no way they can be as nimble in offering the specific products that people want, especially when the quantities sold are relatively small or the products are perishable.

On the topic of supermarkets, factory farming is also a main contributor to homogenization, I think - supermarket chains now find it easier and cheaper to ship from major producers than source local products.  Because we don't need to depend on locally grown produce and are getting accustomed to eating the same things in all seasons, we have lost many regional varieties of any particular food plant you can name.  On the other hand, we get many foreign produce items that would have been impossible to taste 100 years ago (durian! mangosteens! guavas! mangos! and so on).  Does this make us more or less homogenized overall?

This again may be more of a North American phenomenon than a global concern - we have many wide-open spaces conducive to massive agro-industrial operations, and good highway systems to transport from central growing regions.  In many countries, the land is too fractured or mountainous to carry out industrial farming, so small farms tend to be the rule.  It's advantageous for a small farmer to sell as much produce as possible locally, because they lack the economies of scale which make up for the cost of shipping (from the perspective of the end consumer).

Counter-intuitively, it's sometimes the local colour that is driving homogenization. I come from a major fruit-growing region of Canada and have been exasperated to find fruit from the US on supermarket shelves when the same fruit is in season locally; I spoke with a produce manager in a good local indie grocer and they explained that it's nearly impossible for the store to get local fruit in season at any price these days because the growers have figured out they can sell it for exorbitant prices at farmer's markets and local fruit stands.

IOW, the locals have been cut out of the local culture to scalp a few extra dollars to the damned tourists who go there to get the local flavour, as Scrib suggests can happen.  

[Jayna]

I dunno. I've noticed a distinct difference between travelling the USA in the 1980's and travelling it now... there seems distinctly less difference in regional cultures, making it necessary to travel abroad to experience that jolt of strangeness.

[Griffin NoName]

I think abroad is pretty safe. We can't even agree on the European Union and all those other non-EU countries are massively different.

Anway, London will soon be very different as all the Hedge Fund managers are fleeing to Switzerland.