I always feel incredibly stupid when things like this happen because I don't have the capacity to understand the mess. If the EU (or IMF) give Greece enough money to remain a viable country why don't other countries just declare themselves bankrupt and get bailed out so they can wipe out their debts (a little creative accounting might be needed to get accepted as bankrupt but I am sure it could be managed). In fact why do countries bother to even try to stay solvent? The global economy could just have one giant money printing press and everyone would stay happy and poverty would be erradicated. Have a feeling I'm missing something in the equation.
I would imagine that they would pay the money back, but being a bailout without the interest (or at a very low one), at least that's how it worked with the banks here in the States. The main problem for Greece is that being insolvent and with a terrible credit rating the only credit they can access is at an incredibly high rate. A proper "bailout" would loan the money with very lax repayment conditions considering that it would be used to pay immediate obligations until the house is in order, or at least that would be the principle.
I'd say kick them out and invite Turkey instead ;)
Deep-fried turkey is becoming common in North America, that way you get both. ;)
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 24, 2010, 09:57:42 AM
I'd say kick them out and invite Turkey instead ;)
Heh, why not just re-instate a new Sublime Porte? There is a distinct lack of grandeur in today's politics! ;)
Greece WAS the word... :mrgreen:
If they are forced out of the Euro, there'll be some bargain holidays in the autumn.
Not really the consequence I should be concerned about, but oh well, what the hell...
Those bastards could cost me my job (not very secure in the first place). Germany is not a poster child for fiscal responsibility either (but still King Oneeye of the Blind compared to the Europeans (mainly) South of us). Our agency is already rather cash-strapped and the current crisis is seen by those who distribute the dough as another opportunity to cut our air supply.
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 30, 2010, 02:47:23 PM
Germany is not a poster child for fiscal responsibility either
Apart from Norway who is?
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 30, 2010, 02:47:23 PM
Those bastards could cost me my job (not very secure in the first place). Germany is not a poster child for fiscal responsibility either (but still King Oneeye of the Blind compared to the Europeans (mainly) South of us). Our agency is already rather cash-strapped and the current crisis is seen by those who distribute the dough as another opportunity to cut our air supply.
Frankly, I blame the Republicans for everything, especially the current world's financial woes.
They started with Reagan's scrapping of oversight and regulation.... it dominoed from there.
I think the Greeks were flawed even before Reagan (and the ancient Athenians were assholes with good PR)
Not to speak of Italian or Iberian deceit and corruption since time immemorial (Philip II was an exception but he is not that good a role model either ;))
In Germany its clearly Rhenian corruption. Just look at how differently public officials were treated in classical Prussia and along the Rhine. In Prussia a Beamter would get punished for not making decisions and shifting them upwards but backed, if a reasoned decision proved wrong (unless it got serial of course). The Rheinisches Beamtenstatut that spread esp. post-WW2 handled it the opposite way with decisions (and therefore potential blame) shifted upwards with even those at the top unwilling to be decisive (except in campaign ads). Backstabbing as primary mode of action is (or at least was) also far more prevalent in the West and South.
Is it celtic heritage? ;)
Quote from: SwatophanesI think the Greeks were flawed even before Reagan...
Will this be a Greek tragedy?
If so, we must be brought to experience the emotions of
pity and
fear which will bring the
Κάθαρσις (catharsis, purging) of these emotions. For us to feel these emotions the downfall must be significant - for example, the downfall of a mere woman or slave would be too trivial. Maybe we don't rate Greece that highly; however if other nations are dragged down it would surely be enough. Can a whole nation take the place of a single noble individual in the drama? Maybe we won't feel fear or sorrow for such a fuzzy entity.
Apart from that, the traditional tragic elements are present:
The Greeks (or Republicans) are guilty of
ὕβρις (hubris) in ignoring the laws of financial probity. Their borrowing is their
ἁμαρτία (hamartia, tragic flaw or deed) which has precipitated the action. Once the ἁμαρτία is revealed, the whole inevitable chain of events must follow like an unstoppable juggernaut. What remains, for the onlooker, is that they go down nobly and cause us to feel the two emotions. Thus we will be purified.
Just thought you might like to know. :mrgreen:
What will become of the Greek play performed in Cambridge every year? Really, there are too many consequences to consider which makes it all very inconsiderate of the Greeks.
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on April 30, 2010, 03:04:41 PM
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 30, 2010, 02:47:23 PM
Germany is not a poster child for fiscal responsibility either
Apart from Norway who is?
Errrmmm...
Norway sits on a huge development fund of oil money, which no-one dares to touch for fear of increasing inflation (booh! hiss!), so it just sits there and does nothing, apart from accumulating interest and being generally spoken of in hushed and emotional terms.
Meanwhile, the norwegian health service is on it's knees, dependant on cheap foreign labour from Sweden, Finland and the baltic states for it's staffing. The norwegian railways are in a terrible state, with maintenance funding so bad that the national rail infrastructure administration has actually warned that they might have to decrease the amount of traffic on the norwegian railway network significantly already by this summer, and they might have to close most of the whole national rail network due to lack of maintenance within a five-year period.
Sure, there's not a lot of inflation in Norway, but it's beginning to look as if there soon is not much else there, either.
The obvious solution is unthinkable: join the EU and the Eurozone, no inflation that way...
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Quote from: Zono... join the EU ...
Quite right, Zono. Unthinkable.
;D
It was one of Norway's wisest choices to stay out.
It was an easy decision though given the simply outrageous demands of esp. France and Spain including unrestricted fishing in Norwegian territorial waters. The answer was a polite version of "You'll get shells not fish, if your fishing fleets show up up here!".
Among the reasons frequently cited is the ban on whaling (which if adopted would improve the perceptions of people like me about the country).
Arm the whales!
You reminded me some nasty stuff done by the US Navy (and surely by others) training dolphins as kamikazes.
---
Alas, sinking whalers would only shift the sympathy towards those... individuals.
:smite:
Is there any animal that has not been abused by the military?
A good idea would be a poison to imbed in the whale meat that's harmless to the animal but fatal in case of consumption by humans.
Ironically, lovers of whale/dolphin meat esp. in Japan can suffer from severe mercury poisoning because the stuff accumulates at the top of the food pyramid
Too many whales killed before the idiots who eat them die of poisoning.
Well, add more and faster poison. Fish (and amphibs) can do, so why shouldn't mammals?
Fugu Whale!
Quote from: Swatopluk on May 03, 2010, 01:52:12 PM
Is there any animal that has not been abused by the military?
Cats.
And certain species of snail darter...
::)
Quote from: Swatopluk on May 03, 2010, 03:22:35 PM
Well, add more and faster poison. Fish (and amphibs) can do, so why shouldn't mammals?
Fugu Whale!
Fugu is delicious - that wouldn't stop the Japanese, I think. Might increase the price. ::)
Yeah but in Fugu the posion is in the parts not usually eaten. One would have to engineer the wahles differently.
There's a problem though. How to protect Orcas that have other whales on their menu (not all of them have)?
Train them to bite a poisoned pill if caught (although that would be problematic for the orcas too).
Catch a load of whales. Implant each with a small battlefield nuke and a computerised sensor system to explode it only when a large metal object approaches very fast and very close. Should make a relatively small and unobtrusive lump in the blubber.
You'd lose two or three more whales and then the blaggards would have to stop harpooning them.
:offtopic: :mrgreen:
In order to get back to Greece elegantly:
Whales/marine mammals are also highly at risk from oil spills.
Greece has a horrible track record there since Greeks tend(ed?) to be the last owners of tankers.
Those owners put very low priority on maintenance or the credentials of the crews.
A German reporter (about 1980) managed to get (with a wee bit of small scale bribery) a mate's certificate and a commission on a supertanker there. His 'qualification' was a simple yachtmaster. A pure horror story.
to re-sequitur ;)
--
I believed that most boats had Panamanian flags for similar reasons. On the same token, the Balboa (official currency in Panamá) is actually rare in the streets where the US Dollar is commonly used. That has prevented runaway inflation while in other Latin American countries it has been on double or triple digits in certain periods.
Now the Greeks are thinking in going back to the Drachma to devaluate it and go back to their pre-Euro inflation levels? ::)
Normally I have sympathy for people protesting against the IWF treatment but in the case of Greece the state seems slightly more sane and less guilty than the protesters (even if only because the government finds itself with the back to the wall). I think they are aware that they are not kicked out simply because that would be the first domino to fall (with Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy to follow). Give them an 'easy' way out and they will fall back to their old ways.
Personally I'd say that this would be a great opportunity to solve the Cyprus question (that imo hinges primarily on Greek obstructionism). As long as one has the Greeks by the balls (and the Erdogan's Turkish administration is in dire need of a political success) there could be a chance.
IMO the best thing for Cyprus is to let the question slowly resove itself on its own, which is happening now. At a low level EU officials are quietly doing a lot of good; if the high-level politicians start to meddle they'll probably set things back by decades.
Because of the ash crisis I missed going through Ledra Street this spring (we'll go in the autumn, I hope), but a friend went through at Ledra Palace twice in April and tells me it's getting very relaxed these days.
There was certainly a huge improvement last October.
Everything I've read so far about the bailout mentions cuts in social services, hours, etc, but not one word about defense spending. According to wiki they spent 8.62 billion euros in 2008 or 3.3% of the GDP, I'm sure cutting that in a third would help quite a bit...
But then the big, bad Turks would come and get them! :2guns: :stick:
You're right, of course, Zono, but with their mentality it's unlikely to happen. Could be, the Army would take over again rather than see that. The place is not exactly stable at the moment.
I think cutting down on tax evasion would also net a pile of money, but it may be that they can't enforce that, either.
I just read in the papers that most private houses in Greece are formally unfinished becasue taxation begins only afterwards. Reminds me of the theory why the famous head of Nefertiti lacks the inlays in one eye.