Toadfish Monastery

Content removed.

Zan,
Is nobody's 2d class citizen.

Big Mac - meah.  A proper hamburger is made thusly:

Ingredients (for 6 burgers):
6 large flat real bread rolls (no sugar added) with or without sesame seeds (your choice)
500g good lean ground beef
2 large onions
garlic to taste
marjoram
generous dash of Worcestershire sauce
tomato ketchup
7 eggs
6 rashers of bacon
6 slices of cheese (proper cheese, preferably cheddar - definitely not that strange plastic stuff used by Maccas)
2-3 tomatoes, sliced
Sliced beetroot
Shredded lettuce (or my favourite, shredded cabbage)

To make the patties, finely chop one of the onions, add to the ground beef together with the marjoram, garlic, Worcestershire sauce and 2 teaspoons of ketchup and one of the eggs.  Mix by hand until well combined.  Divide into six equal pieces and shape each on into a ball.  I have never understood Maccas pride in their "all beef patties" - I want some other stuff in there.

Slice the other onion, and fry until it it is well browned, set aside on the edge of the hotplate.  Meanwhile to make each burger, place one ball of the meat mixture onto the hot plate and flatten with an egg lifter (or whatever) until it is the desired size (largely determined bu the size of your bread rolls).  Break an egg and place a rasher of the bacon onto the hotplate as well.  Slice the roll and toast the inside.  When the roll is ready, butter it and then place some of the shredded lettuce (or cabbage) on it, a slice of beetroot and tomato, seasoning with salt and papper.  Meanwhile when the pattie is cooked, put some of the fried onion on top and a little of the ketchup and then a slice of the cheese.  Turn the egg then shortly after place it on the pattie stack again seasoning with salt and pepper then place the bacon on top.  Place burger "stack" on to the prepared bread roll, place the top of the roll and enjoy.  A proper "hamburger with the lot", Aussie style.

Why do you hate America™?

ETA:  Will try that, though.

 :mrgreen:

Oh no, America has brought many wonderful things to the world, its just that not many of them are culinary and definitely not included are hamburgers.


When you try them, remember one important thing.  A good hamburger is always messy to eat, as it tends to drip juices.  Neatness and good hamburgers are mutually exclusive, so be warned!  :D

This thread is now about hamburgers.

of course.  All in the best Toadfish Monastery tradtition.  Topic drift is our specialty.  Here, have a beer while we think about hamburgeres. :toast:

I beg to differ - cities are often vibrant, funky places - moreso than small towns.   YES there is a monoculture ESPECIALLY in the suburbs, but any rapidly developed town-to-city will be more intensely monocultural than a city with a large population. I am speaking especially to food and beer selection here, in addition to big-box retailers.   And sorry, but in my experience, mom and pop diners are crap that offer the same homogenized 'western food*' everywhere (with the exception of a few gems, but you could go for hundreds of miles in any direction between them).  When you're the only game in town, you don't have to be on top of your game. 


_{*even the Chinese-run ones - there is no such thing as a small town or village in the Prairies without a Chinese restaurant, and it's equally unheard of for them to neglect to put the words "Western Cuisine" and "Licensed" on the sign to placate the locals who remain suspicious of 'foreign food' (none of which has ever been served in China).  At least with the Chinese restaurants, you stand a fighting chance of getting something that involves a decent serving of vegetables, and some aren't bad.  I spotted a throwback to this near my current apartment (in the city) from WAAAAAAY down the block - the sign said "WESTERN COFFEE SHOP" (they serve Chinese food). ;D}

All speaking from the perspective of the gorram oil-boom feedlot flatlands (HELP! I AM TRAPPED ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROCKIES!), of course.


Besides, monoculture in farming, animal husbandry and brewing concerns me far more than stoking Let's Buy More Crap-ism by having interesting quality goods and services to shop for - it's damned easy to stay away from monoculture-malls, so I don't spend money at 'em.  Ditto for restaurants - no point to eat out in small towns (besides necessary sustenance when traveling for work), because I can cook everything then can better and for less money.  Even in the city we only really eat at restaurants that serve food we can't cook for around $10 per meal, per person. 

Turn me loose in Seoul (for example) and I'll burn through piles of cash, because the quality-to-price ratio is amazing and there are millions of micro-entrepreneurs that you'd LIKE to support, with actual variety - you need to buy on the spot because you may never see that particular item again (I'm thinking specifically about clothing and shoes here - HATE shopping for wearables in North Amrika but go on shopping sprees there - in fact, I will NOT buy things for a year or more here to restock my wardrobe there).

I dunno.

If you look, you can still find mom & pop stores.  Such as gun dealers, real gunsmiths, mechanics who have either their own, their father's or some uncle's name on the sign outside.

For the longest time, we had a cheese shop, that specialized in Wisconsin real dairy cheeses; sadly, they put their fine establishment in a stilted small town that had been raised to think velveeta was the height of cheesiness.  But other shops abide in other towns not so blind.

We have a local meat shop that was old when *I* was in High School-- still considered to be the best steak shop in the tri-state area.

We have local eateries, too:  my favorite steak shop is simply called Eddie's.   It's literally off to one side, and you'd miss it, if you didn't know it was there-- the "atmosphere" is a cinder-block building with worn carpet, and roughly painted walls.

But.  Real tablecloths on the mish-mash collection of tables and chairs.   Real stainless flatware-- no plastic here.  Real glass, real china.  And the best steaks I've even had.  Ever.   And?  I've met the actual cook (no chefs here).  Yes, his name is Eddie, and he's older'n the bible.  His older brother is the sort of head waiter-- and yes, he actually waits on you--   The menu is simple:  steak or seafood?   The steak choices are 3.  Pick one-- loosely based on size.  Seafood?  Whatever's in season this week.  Take it or leave it-- but if you take it, you'll not be disappointed.

For the most part, I purchase my firearms from pawn shops I've developed a relationship with-- no chainstores.  Shops who's owner still holds down the fort, and knows his best customers by name.   There's two or three.  The local gunsmith owns his own shop, too.  He'll happily spend a minute or an hour talking shop.  Advice is free-- he never seems to mind talking himself out of work-- he knows, if you need *real* smithing, you'll bring it to him.  

My mechanics are much the same-- they don't bother to advertise.  No need:  they are more than busy enough to keep their employees active, by referral and repeat business.  My favorite one isn't even in Tulsa, but about 8 miles north, in a small town, in a shop his father started.  He's not the guy to go to, if you need it fixed today, however-- one or two weeks wait *before* he can get to yours, is common.  Yet?  People are more than willing to wait.... why is obvious.

Diners, joints, local mechanics not under a chain-name?  They exist-- if you look.   Heck:  my favorite lawn mower shop has such an odd name, I can't pronounce it, let alone spell it-- and it's out of the way to get to, yet?  I wouldn't take my business anywhere else.

They rarely advertise-- no need.  People find them, and remain loyal, even if money is an issue.  Quality over quick, most of the time, always works.

Sure, I eat at McDonalds, if I need to refuel.  That's what it is:  a pit stop, topping up my tanks, no more.  It won't make me sick (in moderation), it will taste the same as last time-- adequate-- no surprises.   And it's cheap-- it won't break my budget.

That being said?  If one takes the time to ferret them out?  The local mom & pop shops are out there...

I live in Melbourne.  One of the characteristics of this city is that it is a very diverse place.  On the food front we have a tradition of excellent restaurants of all descriptions.  In fact, unless your restaurant is very good it will not last long here - we don't see why we should pay good money for cr*p when we can just go down the street a few doors and get something fabulous.  This food culture works right out into the suburbs, sure, there are a few sad cases, but but we are spoiled for choice and it is not hard to find something good.  We have benefitted from successive waves of immigrants starting post WWII (we have always had a significant Chinese population since at least the early to mid noneteenth century) with Italians and  Greeks (I believe we have the highest Greek population outside of Athens) followed up by various eatern european people, especially from the Balkans, then the Vietnamese in the late 70s and early 80s, Lebanese and other middle eaastern immigrants in more recent years and latelya significant number of African people especially of late from Sudan.  All these people have added to the mix and expanded out culinary landscape.  Many immigrants become successful business people or enter public life.  until just recently the Mayor of the City of Melbourne (the municipality for the CBD and very close in areas) was a chinese Australian John So.  (there was a rap song written - John So he's our bro)  There are significant groups of Indian, other Asian countries, the Pacific islands and (unfortunately) New Zealand.   ;)

The idea of multi culturalism is simply a way of life here and I cannot conceive of what it would be like to livein a uniform society without all this wonderful diversity.  I don't think we are in any danger soon of "American Imperialism" taking over.  On the contrary, we tend to simply pick the eyes out things and we take and use what we want from your export culture and add our own flavour to it.  Sure, ther is way toomuch CSI on TV.  But that's OK, I don;t watch it.  (I prefer Silent Witness, anyday.)

This is not Utopia, we have our problems.  Lately there have been a few incidents of racial attack against Indian students.  Not all the attacks that have been reported as such were racially based, I admit, but that is not the point.  The average Melbournian has reacted with horror that a few of our number have indulged in this sort of thing.  I am however pleased in a way that even when the attackers were perpetrated by young men from non-caucasian ethinc backgounds, they were not identified assuch, they were simply called young men.  Although this distinction would likely be lost on those thugs, it is a good thing that we can see past such trivia as skin colour etc.

Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 01, 2009, 01:37:52 AMFor the longest time, we had a cheese shop, that specialized in Wisconsin real dairy cheeses; sadly, they put their fine establishment in a stilted small town that had been raised to think velveeta was the height of cheesiness.  But other shops abide in other towns not so blind.

LOL, velveeta is distinguished primarily by the fact that it melts into an indistinguishable, homogeneous mass with little effort.  That mindset applies to more than cheese. ::)

Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 01, 2009, 01:37:52 AMWe have local eateries, too:  my favorite steak shop is simply called Eddie's.   It's literally off to one side, and you'd miss it, if you didn't know it was there-- the "atmosphere" is a cinder-block building with worn carpet, and roughly painted walls.

LOL, at one of my favorite local restaurants (Cantonese) the highlight of my meal is if they bring a whole pig carcass up from the basement and carry it through the dining room on the way to the kitchen. ;D

Quote from: Bluenose on October 01, 2009, 12:19:07 AM
of course.  All in the best Toadfish Monastery tradtition.  Topic drift is our specialty.  Here, have a beer while we think about hamburgeres. :toast:

Well, according to my religion, it isn't possible to gain Slack unless you have the perfect cheeseburger.  Problem:  You need Slack to FIND the perfect cheeseburger.

London's diversity has been somewhat crushed by congestion charging. It's hell for small businesses. It's going to be abolished for West London but they say it won't happen for another 18 months which I don't understand as all they need to do is stop charging money.

I live in a part of London where there is a good diversity of shops. Trouble is I can't afford anything in them.

The next thing to hit us is residents parking to stop commuter parking which is great except we will have to pay for permits. There's no problem with parking except for the commuters so in effect we will be paying a tax. They could just ban parking for an hour or two in the morning, that'd hit the commuters, but wouldn't get the council any money.

:soapbox: :offtopic:

Quote from: Griffin NoName on October 01, 2009, 03:35:03 AM
London's diversity has been somewhat crushed by congestion charging. It's hell for small businesses. It's going to be abolished for West London but they say it won't happen for another 18 months which I don't understand as all they need to do is stop charging money.

I live in a part of London where there is a good diversity of shops. Trouble is I can't afford anything in them.

The next thing to hit us is residents parking to stop commuter parking which is great except we will have to pay for permits. There's no problem with parking except for the commuters so in effect we will be paying a tax. They could just ban parking for an hour or two in the morning, that'd hit the commuters, but wouldn't get the council any money.

:soapbox: :offtopic:

Solution:  "Oliver Cromwell" the council, and get on with things.

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 04:08:35 AM
Solution:  "Oliver Cromwell" the council, and get on with things.

Actually, I  would think it might be more effective to "Charles the First" them.   ::)

As time passes I see the concepts of economy and society more and more like ecosystems, you get some dominant species that flourish under the current environment, others perish or are close to extinction, and others fill ecological niches, thus having a relatively diverse ecosystem.

The McDonalds and Starbucks are the rats and roaches of this ecosystem, others like the Walmarts are perhaps like the ubiquitous farm cows, etc, etc. The interesting thing is that despite the competition a significant amount of local fauna survives despite the invaders, precisely because they are best suited to survive in their local environments.

Certainly in some cases the local fauna is overrun by the invaders to extinction (akin to what happened in many islands and prominently in New Zealand) and the cultural homogenization doesn't help, but for the most part this processes are progressive enough for us not notice them immediately.

OTOH, I do see globalization as something inexorable that will likely transform us into a macro-culture populated with sub and micro-cultures within a relatively homogeneous framework. This isn't something you can fight as you don't stop the tide from coming, unless we want to stop boats, planes, telephones and that pesky internet thingy, so, get used to it.

Quote from: Bluenose on October 01, 2009, 05:53:48 AM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 04:08:35 AM
Solution:  "Oliver Cromwell" the council, and get on with things.

Actually, I  would think it might be more effective to "Charles the First" them.   ::)

Ah, yes, poor Old King Chuck.  He laughed at all the wrong jokes, until one day he laughed his head clean off.  He was a freak, and I hear they missed him when he was gone.  But I was referring to the doing, not the do-ee.

Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 01, 2009, 02:28:24 PM
OTOH, I do see globalization as something inexorable that will likely transform us into a macro-culture populated with sub and micro-cultures within a relatively homogeneous framework. This isn't something you can fight as you don't stop the tide from coming, unless we want to stop boats, planes, telephones and that pesky internet thingy, so, get used to it.

Call me Canute, I suppose.  I am a crusty fellow, and while I will be the first to admit that life is better now than it was 50 or 100 years ago, there are still some things that I miss, and some "progress" that drive me to swear and shake my cane at random passers-by.

For example, I used to travel to England regularly, back in the 80s and 90s, and I'm absolutely mad about the place.  It bothers me to think that American and British cultures (for example) should influence each other to the point of homogenization, as the very differences are what make me love Britain and the English people so much.  I mean, other than the fact that I find them to be very nice people on the whole, even given their Queen's habit of savagely beating random tourists with that brick-in-a-bag she calls a purse.  Horrible, horrible.

But you're right, I suppose.  There's no stopping progress, and I expect that one day I'll wind up eating bangers and mash purchased from WalMart.  This bothers me for reasons I find hard to explain.

Quote from: Bluenose on October 01, 2009, 01:58:32 AM
I live in Melbourne.  One of the characteristics of this city is that it is a very diverse place.  On the food front we have a tradition of excellent restaurants of all descriptions.  In fact, unless your restaurant is very good it will not last long here - we don't see why we should pay good money for cr*p when we can just go down the street a few doors and get something fabulous.  This food culture works right out into the suburbs, sure, there are a few sad cases, but but we are spoiled for choice and it is not hard to find something good.  We have benefitted from successive waves of immigrants starting post WWII (we have always had a significant Chinese population since at least the early to mid noneteenth century) with Italians and  Greeks (I believe we have the highest Greek population outside of Athens) followed up by various eatern european people, especially from the Balkans, then the Vietnamese in the late 70s and early 80s, Lebanese and other middle eaastern immigrants in more recent years and latelya significant number of African people especially of late from Sudan.  All these people have added to the mix and expanded out culinary landscape.  Many immigrants become successful business people or enter public life.  until just recently the Mayor of the City of Melbourne (the municipality for the CBD and very close in areas) was a chinese Australian John So.  (there was a rap song written - John So he's our bro)  There are significant groups of Indian, other Asian countries, the Pacific islands and (unfortunately) New Zealand.   ;)

The idea of multi culturalism is simply a way of life here and I cannot conceive of what it would be like to livein a uniform society without all this wonderful diversity.  I don't think we are in any danger soon of "American Imperialism" taking over.  On the contrary, we tend to simply pick the eyes out things and we take and use what we want from your export culture and add our own flavour to it.  Sure, ther is way toomuch CSI on TV.  But that's OK, I don;t watch it.  (I prefer Silent Witness, anyday.)

This is not Utopia, we have our problems.  Lately there have been a few incidents of racial attack against Indian students.  Not all the attacks that have been reported as such were racially based, I admit, but that is not the point.  The average Melbournian has reacted with horror that a few of our number have indulged in this sort of thing.  I am however pleased in a way that even when the attackers were perpetrated by young men from non-caucasian ethinc backgounds, they were not identified assuch, they were simply called young men.  Although this distinction would likely be lost on those thugs, it is a good thing that we can see past such trivia as skin colour etc.

Two things:

1.  I have never had the pleasure of visiting Australia, though it's on my list of things to do before I die.  Melbourne is on my list of places to go, as are a couple of smaller towns old friends of mine have moved to.  Any other cities you'd suggest?

2.  I have precisely zero problem with multiculturism.  One of the few good things about the hideous and wretched desert city I live in is the fact that I can get food from all over the world with a 20 minute drive.  But every passing year has less of these places showing up, and more and more franchizes.  I don't want TGIF, I want Joe Blow's Terrible Thai Palace.

I agree with the general sentiment about homogenization being Bad. I want  people and regions to retain their uniqueness, their culture and individuality. I, of course, am a byproduct of homogenization myself, being unequal parts American indian, black, and British Islander, and culturally I'm a product of Oregon which is pretty damn near indistinguishable from the culture Everywhere Else in the US although we cling, with retarded pride, to the minute differences that might just make us distinct.

On the subject of hamburgers (I like to make mine with bison) Zan, do not scold me, but after my dentist appointment I was starving so I ate most of a double cheeseburger from Burger King. It was... kind of disgusting. But it was only a dollar! One blinking dollar!

I am kind of thinking of seeing what would happen if I ate only double cheeseburgers for one month.

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 09:40:22 PM


I am kind of thinking of seeing what would happen if I ate only double cheeseburgers for one month.

NOOOOOOOO!  Do not wreck the hotness!

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 09:40:22 PM


I am kind of thinking of seeing what would happen if I ate only double cheeseburgers for one month.

NOOOOOOOO!  Do not wreck the hotness!

:)

I have a feeling that I would end up losing weight, because I would put off eating as much as possible. That thing was gross.

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:26:42 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 09:40:22 PM


I am kind of thinking of seeing what would happen if I ate only double cheeseburgers for one month.

NOOOOOOOO!  Do not wreck the hotness!

:)

I have a feeling that I would end up losing weight, because I would put off eating as much as possible. That thing was gross.

When I first started the diet, I would have killed for a Jack in the Box Terrible Bacon Cheese Thingie, but now the very idea makes me ill.

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:29:21 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:26:42 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 09:40:22 PM


I am kind of thinking of seeing what would happen if I ate only double cheeseburgers for one month.

NOOOOOOOO!  Do not wreck the hotness!

:)

I have a feeling that I would end up losing weight, because I would put off eating as much as possible. That thing was gross.

When I first started the diet, I would have killed for a Jack in the Box Terrible Bacon Cheese Thingie, but now the very idea makes me ill.

Yes! Exactly. I'm not used to this crap... it's all sticky and greasy and vile.

But you see, I consider questionable food a direct and personal challenge to my digestive system, and nothing sounds more questionable than eating nothing but double cheeseburgers for a month!

Try logging that on daily plate, and see what happens.

It will asplode.

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:35:29 PM
Try logging that on daily plate, and see what happens.

It will asplode.

ooooh good idea!

OK, I looked it up and I could eat three of them a day! THREE.

:barf:

There is no way I would be able to pack more than two of those vile things into my face per day. Even with tomato on them.

But it would be fascinating to try. FOR SCIENCE!

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:46:29 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:35:29 PM
Try logging that on daily plate, and see what happens.

It will asplode.

ooooh good idea!

OK, I looked it up and I could eat three of them a day! THREE.

:barf:

There is no way I would be able to pack more than two of those vile things into my face per day. Even with tomato on them.

But it would be fascinating to try. FOR SCIENCE!

YOU'RE MAD, CARSTAIRS!  MAD, I TELL YOU!   :barf:

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:50:20 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:46:29 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:35:29 PM
Try logging that on daily plate, and see what happens.

It will asplode.

ooooh good idea!

OK, I looked it up and I could eat three of them a day! THREE.

:barf:

There is no way I would be able to pack more than two of those vile things into my face per day. Even with tomato on them.

But it would be fascinating to try. FOR SCIENCE!

YOU'RE MAD, CARSTAIRS!  MAD, I TELL YOU!   :barf:

Well... yeah!  :-*

Remember the time I decided to eat only potatoes and dairy for a month, to see if it's true that you can get almost all of your nutrients that way? Or the time I decided to eat only tinned fish, pickled goods, and candy, because I was curious what would happen? (Answer: constipation. Don't try it.)

Wasn't that the time you farted so foully that you made the cab driver retch?

That was a thing of legend.

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:53:47 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
Remember the time I decided to eat only potatoes and dairy for a month, to see if it's true that you can get almost all of your nutrients that way?

Wasn't that the time you farted so foully that you made the cab driver retch?

That was a thing of legend.

Little curly-haired girls still can't get a cab around here to this very day. They take off with wheels squealing if they see anyone who resembles me come out of the building.

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:56:23 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:53:47 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
Remember the time I decided to eat only potatoes and dairy for a month, to see if it's true that you can get almost all of your nutrients that way?

Wasn't that the time you farted so foully that you made the cab driver retch?

That was a thing of legend.

Little curly-haired girls still can't get a cab around here to this very day. They take off with wheels squealing if they see anyone who resembles me come out of the building.

This is why we can't have nice things, Jayna. :(

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 11:06:45 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:56:23 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:53:47 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
Remember the time I decided to eat only potatoes and dairy for a month, to see if it's true that you can get almost all of your nutrients that way?

Wasn't that the time you farted so foully that you made the cab driver retch?

That was a thing of legend.

Little curly-haired girls still can't get a cab around here to this very day. They take off with wheels squealing if they see anyone who resembles me come out of the building.

This is why we can't have nice things, Jayna. :(

I gotta be me.  :)

Quote from: Jayna on October 01, 2009, 10:56:23 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 01, 2009, 10:53:47 PM
Wasn't that the time you farted so foully that you made the cab driver retch?
That was a thing of legend.

Little curly-haired girls still can't get a cab around here to this very day. They take off with wheels squealing if they see anyone who resembles me come out of the building.

Well if we're going to boast about such things, I once had one mistaken for a low flying aircraft - at an Air Force base!

LOL, when we used to live in a basement suite, the (now) wife let such a good one go in bed that she woke up the landlady upstairs!

Another time, she let one go that woke me up, because I thought my cell was ringing on vibrate (brrrrrrrrt!  brrrrrrrrrrt!) and reverberating on the bedside table. I think I actually answered the phone... ::)

OTOH, I am the strong, silent type and once (after many field days of travel irregularity and poor food)  had one mistaken for sour, heavy hydrocarbon contamination.  Not surprising, as I've clocked them on a sour gas meter at 110 ppm H₂S, a level considered immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH). :mrgreen:

Yoo-hoo, Zan! http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/mcsparseness-usa/

Terrifying!

Quote from: Jayna on October 02, 2009, 05:26:14 PM
Yoo-hoo, Zan! http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/mcsparseness-usa/

Terrifying!

Oh.

My.

God.

This is how the world ends, Jayna...not with a bang but a belch.

Quote from: Zan on October 02, 2009, 08:31:58 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 02, 2009, 05:26:14 PM
Yoo-hoo, Zan! http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/mcsparseness-usa/

Terrifying!

Oh.

My.

God.

This is how the world ends, Jayna...not with a bang but a belch.

Yes, yes exactly. A satisfied belch, and increase in Alka-Seltzer sales, and a population overfed into apathy.

Quote from: Jayna on October 02, 2009, 05:26:14 PM
Yoo-hoo, Zan! http://ideas.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/mcsparseness-usa/

Terrifying!

My reply?

If McD's were 1/2 as terrible as some would have us to believe.....why, oh, why are there more than 13 thousand successful locations in the US alone?

I dunno-- they seem to always have an excellent bottom-line on Wall Street, and whenever one goes into a small town, the locals typically cheer-- and flock to it in droves.

If anti-monoculture was as wondermous as all that?

McD's wouldn't have a snowballs' chance in Hawaii.....they'd close for lack of clients.

The only way to reverse what you clearly perceive to be an abomination, is to offer Something Better.    People have demonstrated they are about as brand-loyal as flies are to specific output.   I.e. none whatsoever-- especially if $$ is involved.

So far?  I find that national brands such as McD's offer consistency:  they are always more or less the same, no surprises, no hideous disappointments either.   Case in point.  Years ago, I had a client in Muskogee-- about 90 minutes from Tulsa, wherein I lived.  Between the two, is a Classic Small Town USA:  Porter, OK.  It's one claim to fame?  According to Porter itself, it was "The Peach Capitol of America".  Unless you were blind, you couldn't miss this claim, if you passed through the town.

On one of the main corners (of which there were perhaps a dozen total intersections) was a Joint.  It advertised "The Best Peach Cobbler Anywhere".   Peach capitol?  Once, during the height of peach season, I decided I had to sample me some of the "best peach cobbler anywhere". 

Know what I was served?   Dreck.  Absolute rubbish.  "The Best Peach Cobbler Anywhere" consisted of canned peaches folded into a recipe meant for fresh.... It was hideous.  Mush-like consistency so very overly sweet that hard candy was sour in contrast ...... in the midst of the "Peach Capitol" they had the gall to serve me canned peaches...

...For the first time in my life, I seriously considered not paying for food I ordered...

But.  I paid.  I never went through Porter, OK again.... a pox on the entire town, says I.  Such "quality" deserves a McDonalds-- the quality of the national chain was one hundred times better than the rubbish the local mom 'n pop diner.

And, ordinarily, I love local Joints..... I like the color, I like the people (usually) and typically, someone owning/running a diner is doing so out of love-of-cooking; certainly there's no serious cash in one.  Unless you happen to own 3 or 4 McD's in an area, that is....!

Sometimes, the monoculture creep is because what it replaces was absolute rubbish.   In fact?  I'd hazard a guess, bettern' 3 of 4 times, the monoculture offering is superior to local color.

South Park (that obscene mirror of US culture) had a very excellent episode on StarBucks versus the Local Color.    Starbucks coffee may be a bit pricy, but it prides itself on "pretty good coffee", consistently, time after time:  pretty good coffee.

Same thing goes for McD's:  It's not New York Fifth Avenue, but it never claimed to be other than what it is-- reasonably edible food, consistently visit after visit.  For cheap.  Another thing McD's prides itself in:  clean.  This basic not-negotiable clause goes back to it's founder, Ray wos'is'name:  he took great pains to clean his first McD's from stem to stern, and brooked no excuses.   McD's to this day is fanatical about cleaning their store.  (I know-- I occasionally do A/C service work for several in town).   They are always cleaning stuff-- the grilles, the floors, the counters, the bathrooms, the walls, the windows-- rarely do I go in to service, when I don't see *something* being cleaned.   

There's usually a reason why monoculture replaces the local stuff, if you look.  And?  It's rare that it's entirely about greed...

I must admit while I don't eat any of the rest of their menu*, McD's does a pretty decent breakfast.  I might start asking them to hold the processed cheese on my Egg McMuffin (where most of the fat and much of the salt probably hides), but it's a significantly less greasy beast than most fast-food or even sit-down breakfasts.  The choice of an English muffin as the sandwich bread is pretty brilliant.  I had one of their hashbrown patties for the first time in quite a while recently, and those things are unmatched by any competitor's fried-breakfast-potato-puck. Their coffee has gotten passable (I like mine dark and very strong, so it's not quite there, but it's WAY better than Tim Horton's much-overrated sour gutrot**).

Interestingly enough, one of those potato pucks from McD's has less salt than an Everything bagel with cream cheese from Timmy's - and a Big Mac has less salt than a 6-inch Subway club sandwich. This is good for an eye-opener:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/special-reports/hard-to-shake/how-salty-is-your-food/article1184281/

I largely agree with Bob - and can give additional anecdotal evidence from Glendon, AB (which has the BEST breakfast I've found yet, at the sub & pizza shop of all things); despite having the World's Largest Perogy:
(http://media-files.gather.com/images/d407/d121/d744/d224/d96/f3/inter.jpg)
it's impossible to find a fresh-made perogy in town.  The Pyrogy Park Cafe serves what is obviously frozen Cheemo perogies.  To be fair, the Perogy Cafe is a Chinese and Western joint (Licenced) as previously mentioned and serves 'Chinese Perogies' (dumplings) too, but this is in a very, very Ukrainian area of the province and there must be hundreds of Babas around who could make 'em for the diner. ***

There's one other factor that I've been contemplating on regarding the bottom-end chain restaurants: I think for a certain segment, it pays to serve consistently crappy food (Humpty's sparked this contemplation).  While they cannot compete in terms of quality with better places, my theory is that provided the price is cheap enough, they will tend to accumulate people who really can't discern and are not inclined to try anything remotely challenging.  This segment of diners is hypothesized to be happiest eating the same menu items at the same place (and probably the same time) over and over, making them a very loyal bunch.  People who demand very good food also tend to prefer variety (and thus visit any particular restaurant infrequently), so it takes a much larger customer base to support excellence than total crap.



<sub>*I've totally sworn off ground meat that I didn't grind myself, unless it's from a VERY reputable source - which excludes most supermarkets and nearly ALL burgers - and have stuck pretty close to it, except occasionally for the sake of politeness i.e. homemade lasagna.  I'm on the road far too much to allow myself the option of grabbing a burger.

**I must admit after many years of resisting, I'm starting to develop a taste for Starbucks, because they are the only place (short of Middle Eastern cafes that do Arabic-style coffee) that make it as strong as I like it.  OTOH, I'm utterly horrified that they still use methylene chloride (nasty solvent) to extract the caffeine in their decaf when alternatives like the Swiss Water Process and supercritical CO2 extraction are available.  MIIIGHT try out their new instant brew, provided it's reasonably cheap per serving, because I have a portable 12-V kettle for the truck.

*** http://www.tastereport.com/TasteReport.com/travel/Entries/2006/12/16_Traveling_the_Perogy_Trail.html indicates otherwise; strange, because I was probably last there around that time. One of my (half-Ukrainian) friends insists on including instant cheese sauce powder (from Kraft Dinner) in her perogies, which gives them that processed food taste - yuck! - but I would think Iris Drapaka would know better. For the record, the big sausage statue in Mundare is painted an unfortunate shade of brown, which probably explains why it's not depicted in the article. ;)</sub>

"Pyrogy"?  I think back East, in the US, they call those "pot stickers".   I think... yes?  ???  :mrgreen:

I saw a whole show on it from "America's Test Kitchen's (http://www.americastestkitchen.com/)", about how simple it is to make your own superior item.   Although, all the one's I've had, were either veggie or meat-filled.  I've not had, nor heard of a cheese one.... sounds yummy.

McDonald's is thick on the ground even here, where we have more restaurants per capita than any other city in the world, and most of them are excellent (they have to be, to survive).

Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue. I find it frightening based on that aspect alone. McDonald's didn't create the monoculture ethic, it merely occupies a niche created by it.

Quote from: Jayna on October 03, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue.

Isn't it just overhang from the industrial revolution? If the price of having your first bone china plates, your first cast iron bedstead, your first W.C., bicycle or car was that it was the same as everyone else's, who cared? And if you're going to ship steam trains to India you'd better be sure you can make the same bolt thread this week as last week. Reproducability of production has just extended into the service sector too, succesful techniques are cloned as fast as widgets. 

It's only when the population has serious excess income that people have the means and inclination to buy the farm shop food, the handmade furniture, the custom-made jewellery, the limited issue designer clothes and so on.  You can see this in English towns. It's the prosperous ones that have the Ye Old Tea Shoppe, traditional toy shops and farmers' markets instead of Starbucks, Toys R Us  and Tescos.

Quote from: beagle on October 03, 2009, 09:49:16 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 03, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue.

Isn't it just overhang from the industrial revolution? If the price of having your first bone china plates, your first cast iron bedstead, your first W.C., bicycle or car was that it was the same as everyone else's, who cared? And if you're going to ship steam trains to India you'd better be sure you can make the same bolt thread this week as last week. Reproducability of production has just extended into the service sector too, succesful techniques are cloned as fast as widgets. 

Um, I wasn't talking about standardization of bolt threads.

Quote from: Jayna on October 03, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
McDonald's is thick on the ground even here, where we have more restaurants per capita than any other city in the world, and most of them are excellent (they have to be, to survive).

Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue. I find it frightening based on that aspect alone. McDonald's didn't create the monoculture ethic, it merely occupies a niche created by it.

I think I'm gonna stop ranting.  It seems to be followed by threadjacking, and then me being asked 3 pages later to defend things I didn't say.  Also, giving each person's posts individual attention is now somehow equal to me saying I'm "better than someone", so I have to mash everyone's answers into one post, where it's really hard to read.

I'm really upset about the strawman thing.  I was told this place was different.

Quote from: Jayna on October 03, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
McDonald's is thick on the ground even here, where we have more restaurants per capita than any other city in the world, and most of them are excellent (they have to be, to survive).

Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue. I find it frightening based on that aspect alone. McDonald's didn't create the monoculture ethic, it merely occupies a niche created by it.

Again?  Most folk *prefer* routine; *prefer* the same thing day in and day out.

It helps create a comfort zone around their lives, insulating them from the less pleasant aspects of being a human.

I'm not 100% certain this is entirely a bad thing, myself.

Sure change is inevitable, and variety is spice-- but not everyone likes change, and not everyone has the constitution for variety.

And no, I am not bothered in the slightest at the concept of monoculture.   I have more faith in human ingenuity, myself. 

And what *is* ingenuity, but someone who has a New Idea?   

Something outside the pale, something not provided by the monoculture.

At least-- not until that idea becomes a fad, and is assimilated. 

iPod anyone?

:)

I hate McDs and wont go into one unless there is no other option. I don't own an iPod (or any other Apple product for what matters) just on principle, my mp3 player is Creative and I'm even using my phone for that purpose more and more.

But I get what you say Bob, besides, is there a real difference if I go to Wendy's instead of McD's? The fact that we can have a lively and civil discussion regardless of our different backgrounds in different parts of the world proves that there is a common cultural ground and I see that as something generally good.

True, certain things will be lost in the process (just look at the number of languages dead or dying in the past hundred years, to name just one example) but that is for the most part inexorable.

Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 04, 2009, 05:01:32 AM
I hate McDs and wont go into one unless there is no other option. I don't own an iPod (or any other Apple product for what matters) just on principle, my mp3 player is Creative and I'm even using my phone for that purpose more and more.

But I get what you say Bob, besides, is there a real difference if I go to Wendy's instead of McD's? The fact that we can have a lively and civil discussion regardless of our different backgrounds in different parts of the world proves that there is a common cultural ground and I see that as something generally good.

True, certain things will be lost in the process (just look at the number of languages dead or dying in the past hundred years, to name just one example) but that is for the most part inexorable.

:)

As for lost language?

More and more, we are creating virtually unlimited storage opportunities for such things as dead languages. 

And, with the advent of the internet, even if there are but 10 people in the world interested, those 10 can get "together" via the web, and study, discuss and preserve an obscure subject; never before has humanity had such an ability-- to take less than 1/1000 percent of interest, get it's advocates working in cooperation, and the subject thrives a bit.

I think the advent of all this glut of information, means that unless we somehow loose the ability to "read" these digital storage monsters, we need never worry about loosing the comprehension of any language [that we now know] ever again.

Which is a sort of preserving the variety and uniqueness of what remains of human achievements.

So that even as we slowly evolve into one giant mass ant-hive of same-ness?  We can, if we like or are so moved, carve out a virtual community, an on-line culture of left-handed fuschia-orchid wearing [but only on 5th Saturdays in months ending in "r"] gecko-lovers.

None of that would have been possible 100 years ago.

Quote from: Zan on October 03, 2009, 10:41:38 PM
I'm really upset about the strawman thing.  I was told this place was different.

Apologies if it seems that way, but my argument feels logically connected back to your post from my point of view. viz...

The same stores dominating in each town being a consequence of

Dominance of the same brands globally being a consequence of

Fast replication of succesful service industry units being a logical development of

Fast replication of manufacturing industry items, being a consequence of

Economies of scale,

Being made possible by consistency of quality and production.

---

I'm open to correction as to where the flaw in the argument is, or which interpretation of sameness is eluding me.

I'm not saying that the above is a good thing necessarily.  Personally it pisses me off for instance that Intel were bankrolling the yes Irish EU referendum, because they can't be bothered to deal with different cultures across Europe.

Quote from: beagle on October 04, 2009, 07:15:52 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 03, 2009, 10:41:38 PM
I'm really upset about the strawman thing.  I was told this place was different.

Apologies if it seems that way, but my argument feels logically connected back to your post from my point of view. viz...

Apologies aren't necessary.  I'm just going to take a break from ranting, that's all.

Quote from: beagle on October 03, 2009, 09:49:16 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 03, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue.

Isn't it just overhang from the industrial revolution? If the price of having your first bone china plates, your first cast iron bedstead, your first W.C., bicycle or car was that it was the same as everyone else's, who cared? And if you're going to ship steam trains to India you'd better be sure you can make the same bolt thread this week as last week. Reproducability of production has just extended into the service sector too, succesful techniques are cloned as fast as widgets. 

It's only when the population has serious excess income that people have the means and inclination to buy the farm shop food, the handmade furniture, the custom-made jewellery, the limited issue designer clothes and so on.  You can see this in English towns. It's the prosperous ones that have the Ye Old Tea Shoppe, traditional toy shops and farmers' markets instead of Starbucks, Toys R Us  and Tescos.

Hmmm. Around here, the very poorest neighborhoods don't have chain stores or restaurants. The chains don't go to the ghetto... not in this town. It's all dingy local holes-in-the-wall. The chains are clustered in prosperous areas. What does that mean for your theory?

Quote from: Zan on October 03, 2009, 10:41:38 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 03, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
McDonald's is thick on the ground even here, where we have more restaurants per capita than any other city in the world, and most of them are excellent (they have to be, to survive).

Monoculture isn't about McDonald's, it's about a culture that embraces sameness as a virtue. I find it frightening based on that aspect alone. McDonald's didn't create the monoculture ethic, it merely occupies a niche created by it.

I think I'm gonna stop ranting.  It seems to be followed by threadjacking, and then me being asked 3 pages later to defend things I didn't say.  Also, giving each person's posts individual attention is now somehow equal to me saying I'm "better than someone", so I have to mash everyone's answers into one post, where it's really hard to read.

I'm really upset about the strawman thing.  I was told this place was different.

People are the same everywhere, hon. It doesn't change, and it would be madness to expect it to. We are all monkeys, when we get down to it.

I don't get the aversion to answering in individual posts, either. I find it really hard to read when multiple people are answered in one post, and I can't maintain a train of thought when I'm trying to compile a bunch of different quotes into one post. Maybe it's the ADHD, but I can't. Usually I just give up, which may be a blessing because who really wants to read my exposition on politics or social issues anyway?

Quote from: Jayna on October 04, 2009, 07:35:57 PM
Hmmm. Around here, the very poorest neighborhoods don't have chain stores or restaurants. The chains don't go to the ghetto... not in this town. It's all dingy local holes-in-the-wall. The chains are clustered in prosperous areas. What does that mean for your theory?

Theories on globalization are the last thing to globalize?

Quote from: Jayna on October 04, 2009, 07:41:41 PM
People are the same everywhere, hon. It doesn't change, and it would be madness to expect it to. We are all monkeys, when we get down to it.

I don't get the aversion to answering in individual posts, either. I find it really hard to read when multiple people are answered in one post, and I can't maintain a train of thought when I'm trying to compile a bunch of different quotes into one post. Maybe it's the ADHD, but I can't. Usually I just give up, which may be a blessing because who really wants to read my exposition on politics or social issues anyway?

Well, yeah.  I'm kinda done with it, too.  I don't understand the rules, and I get mad when my thread gets jacked on response #1.  Then I get called to task for things I never said.

I'm just going back to lurking for a bit.

Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 04, 2009, 06:37:53 AM
So that even as we slowly evolve into one giant mass ant-hive of same-ness?  We can, if we like or are so moved, carve out a virtual community, an on-line culture of left-handed fuschia-orchid wearing [but only on 5th Saturdays in months ending in "r"] gecko-lovers.

What it matters is that those of us who are different get squashed by the tide of sameness, and its accompanying disapproval of difference.

What it matters is that as the sameness encroaches, we lose the opportunity to experience strangeness, which IMO is crucial to intellectual development.

Most people live in their communities, not online. I am fond of my online communities, but given a choice between having a fabulous internet club of people with similar interests and having a not-quite-ideal physical community of people with disparate interests, I'll take the physical community any day. Most of my IRL friends only have a few things in common with me... that's not what brings us together. Being comfortable hanging out and doing stuff is what brings us together. I can listen to LK talking about her French students all night over wine... I don't speak French, and I'm not a teacher. It doesn't matter. I can listen to Zan talk about maintenance and managing people... I'm not an engineer, and I'm not a manager. It doesn't matter. He tells a damn funny story, and we get along. THAT'S what matters.

I live in a physical community that has a shared culture, and something that matters to me that I can leave this community and go to another one thousands of miles away, and be in a place that is truly foreign. Or, at least, I used to. That strangeness stimulates your brain in ways that you cannot achieve online. There are reasons students are often sent abroad. Those reasons are gradually disappearing, and I find that to be a great loss.

Perhaps I will get in trouble for posting this soliloquy as a separate message, but I have a really hard time compiling multiple trains of thought into a single post. It simply doesn't make sense to my poor spastic brain, so usually, I skip it. There are a lot of things that I just don't reply to here, because unlike everywhere else on the internet I hang out I have this fear that I'll get my hand slapped if I post my thoughts individually. I try to provide actual content in each post, and spend time and real effort on it, not just "lol" or "I agree", so I hope I will be forgiven and not considered an attention-whore in this case. And now I will shut up.

Monoculture -at least the way I see it- doesn't (or shouldn't) mean that everybody speaks, eats, dress and generally think the same, but that there is a common framework of interaction. Just to mention one example I am sure there are a numbers of subcultures closer than 20 miles from my house that may be far more foreign than the ones I've met while traveling. Again, I do believe that the ecosystem will leave space for things outside mass production, precisely because of mass production and the desire to have something unique from time to time.

Quote from: Jayna on October 04, 2009, 07:35:57 PM
Hmmm. Around here, the very poorest neighborhoods don't have chain stores or restaurants. The chains don't go to the ghetto... not in this town. It's all dingy local holes-in-the-wall. The chains are clustered in prosperous areas. What does that mean for your theory?

I cannot pretend to speak for beagle, but I'd blame the local city government-- 'roun' here, we do get McD's in sh!tty neighborhoods-- but only on major corners, so's the cops can patrol them and get free coffee.

As for shopping centers?  Those go where there is a perceived demand-- if nearby stores are bringing in the cash, then other chains wanna get in on the flow of filthy lucre.   Another factor, is property values and tax shelters.  If a possible shopping center site is surrounded by upscale or middle-class housing?  And, if it's developers can squeeze a tax shelter or tax break out of the city government?  (typically through hidden kickbacks, or other "investment opportunities") then you get a shopping center-- and it creates it's own demand simply by being.

Honestly, many cities have areas of town that they have literally given up on:  cops never go in there in less than threes-- (that's 3 cars, Virginia. Yes, there is a Wolf) and streets only get "repaired" after much complaining is formally filed, or if the local media gets wind.   

Robert Heinlein often talked about city areas that were formal "abandoned zones".   I think his vision is fulfilled in some cities-- all except for the formal declaration of abandonment. 

Which is sad.   Those areas contain people, too-- potential voters.

But just as sadly, people in the very poorest places in many societies do not actually vote.  Many do not realize they *can* vote.  And many that do?  Are too under-informed to vote in their best interests.   For example:  if you look at people who vote Republican versus Democrat in the US, and separate it by annual income, you'll typically see a shift to the Republicans among the poorest-- provided those poorest are also members of fundamentalist religions.   This is a clear case of voting *against* their own interests, as the Republicans have *never* advocated any policies that assist the very poorest.  Tax breaks do not help a family that doesn't make enough to pay taxes in the first place.  Same for tax refunds on real-estate:  those folk don't *own* real estate, never have.  Yet?  They consistantly vote for a party who's policies go directly *against* their own personal interest.

And so, the poorest areas of a city ...... remain poor.

Quote from: Jayna on October 04, 2009, 07:58:03 PM
I try to provide actual content in each post, and spend time and real effort on it, not just "lol" or "I agree", so I hope I will be forgiven and not considered an attention-whore in this case. And now I will shut up.

:)

Three possible approaches to your conundrum, re: posting "rules" (I think of them as suggestions)

1) simply fall back, give up and stop posting everything you think of-- I hope you won't.  This forum has slowed enough as it is, traffic-wise.  (at least for serious subjects.... while I have nothing at all against humor-only threads, I lost interest in that activity a while back, and only read serious or semi-serious threads, looking for something that motivates me to post.  Such as here)

2) do what I often do:  hit reply to a post, just after you've posted, compose your thoughts, then when done, instead of clicking "POST", you go:  COPY, hit the back-button, click "MODIFY" on you last post, then PASTE your new composition, complete with the quote, into your last post.

3) simply ignore the suggestion, and post as you would elsewhere.  Sure, some will complain.  So what?  Let them:  it's their job.  I seriously doubt you'll be ousted over *that*.  I've only seen a very few ousting of the Monastery since it was built-- and that was over the heinous crime of SPAM.   Clearly, you are *not* spamming up the place.   If you walk in with muddy feet?  Sure, some will complain. So what?

I, for one, won't.  And I expect that the complainers will cease after an admonition or three, once they see that you are the sort who desires individual replies to indivdual posts.  I cannot see the harm, at the level of traffic we currently have?  What can it hurt.

(and yes, I fully expect to be reprimanded by the above, but again?  That's the give-and-take of life, is it not?  If you are not occasionally irritated, or do not irritate?  Are you still alive?  I seem to recall a definition of being alive, is responding to irritation.... :) ::)  )

And....just to follow my own advice?  Instead of #2, I'm gonna go with #3....

:ROFL: 

Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 05, 2009, 02:51:43 PMBut just as sadly, people in the very poorest places in many societies do not actually vote.

Actually there are many cases in which the poor don't vote because they don't see any benefit on doing that. How does voting change their lives any meaningful form? Back home where there is no left, right or center (regardless of their claims) politicians almost never do a thing for the poor* and in consequence pretty words don't work with their poorest 'constituents'. If policies are always geared to those who have something, the ones without feel and are excluded.

Now, here in the States there is something else against them, which is the IMNSHO the idiotic measure to make elections in a regular working day, as opposed to a Sunday when at least a majority of people isn't working. If you aren't paid for making a line (for hours in some cases) and will get a reprimand (or even get fired) in such cases, why risk your job on something that will change little of your practical life?

The untold rule of our current society is: if you have no money, you will be excluded.

*There is a rant somewhere about populism and cases like Venezuela but I wont get into that now.

Thanks for the encouragement, Bob!  :)

Quote from: Zan on October 04, 2009, 07:53:27 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 04, 2009, 07:41:41 PM
People are the same everywhere, hon. It doesn't change, and it would be madness to expect it to. We are all monkeys, when we get down to it.

I don't get the aversion to answering in individual posts, either. I find it really hard to read when multiple people are answered in one post, and I can't maintain a train of thought when I'm trying to compile a bunch of different quotes into one post. Maybe it's the ADHD, but I can't. Usually I just give up, which may be a blessing because who really wants to read my exposition on politics or social issues anyway?

Well, yeah.  I'm kinda done with it, too.  I don't understand the rules, and I get mad when my thread gets jacked on response #1.  Then I get called to task for things I never said.

I'm just going back to lurking for a bit.

There really aren't any rules here to speak of. Don't worry about posting a response to everything, every time. You can come back to a post later, if you feel the need. I generally reply to one or two, perhaps three, at a time and don't worry about the rest.
If you see the thread wandering too far away from the discussion you were interested in having, nudge it back with a post directly related to the OP or say something.

Quote from: Scriblerus the Philosophe on October 05, 2009, 09:22:13 PM

Quote from: Zan on October 04, 2009, 07:53:27 PM

Quote from: Jayna on October 04, 2009, 07:41:41 PM
People are the same everywhere, hon. It doesn't change, and it would be madness to expect it to. We are all monkeys, when we get down to it.

I don't get the aversion to answering in individual posts, either. I find it really hard to read when multiple people are answered in one post, and I can't maintain a train of thought when I'm trying to compile a bunch of different quotes into one post. Maybe it's the ADHD, but I can't. Usually I just give up, which may be a blessing because who really wants to read my exposition on politics or social issues anyway?

Well, yeah.  I'm kinda done with it, too.  I don't understand the rules, and I get mad when my thread gets jacked on response #1.  Then I get called to task for things I never said.

I'm just going back to lurking for a bit.

There really aren't any rules here to speak of. Don't worry about posting a response to everything, every time. You can come back to a post later, if you feel the need. I generally reply to one or two, perhaps three, at a time and don't worry about the rest.
If you see the thread wandering too far away from the discussion you were interested in having, nudge it back with a post directly related to the OP or say something.

Thanks, but when we were directed here, we were given an impression of the board which seems to have been inaccurate.  Since then, the person who invited us has told me that I am not a suitable candidate for this board.

So without any fuss or hysterics, I shall depart.  Thanks for having me, it's been fun.

Zan! Don't go, it's not like that guy's in charge here. :( Just because one person doesn't think you're a good fit doesn't mean everyone else will feel the same way.

Quote from: Zan on October 03, 2009, 10:41:38 PMI think I'm gonna stop ranting.  It seems to be followed by threadjacking, and then me being asked 3 pages later to defend things I didn't say.  Also, giving each person's posts individual attention is now somehow equal to me saying I'm "better than someone", so I have to mash everyone's answers into one post, where it's really hard to read.

I'm really upset about the strawman thing.  I was told this place was different.

I think there's been some mis-reading of styles  - being well used to the Toadfish manner of discourse I am not reading any of the posts here as being intended as a challenge (in the confrontational sense of the word).  Honestly, this place IS different - so it might be help to point out some of the differences:

The style here was largely evolved as a reaction to the frequent screaming matches in a particular faith-centric forum.  The Toadfish habit is to offer differing viewpoints and anecdotal outtakes for consideration as opposed to arguing from a single angle (many of us are also enthusiastic Devil's Advocates and will deliberately take a dissenting angle - often to our own beliefs or opinions).  The cohesion of the group depends largely on the ability to explore multiple facets of a topic without being read as combative.  That's where the core virtues of tolerance, humility and respect come in - tolerance of dissenting opinions and the humility to accept that if someone disagrees with or picks at certain aspects of an idea, opinion or belief, they are not disrespecting the idea.   Since we follow a fairly informal, non-confrontational style of discussion, we've largely fallen out of the habit of responding to every single post in a thread, and tend to quote only short excerpts here and there as launching-off points. This in part makes multiple response posts unnecessary and in part makes them seem particularly out of place compared to the ebb-and-flow style of discussion.  OTOH, we do tend to generate a lot of massive, rambling compound posts (this one here being a prime example); while these can be difficult to read, when done right they are small pieces of literary art and a joy both to create and to read (this one here NOT being a prime example ;)).

That being said, we are champion thread-drifters and tend to wander all over the place in discussions.  Some areas of the forum tend to be a little more focused (Serious Discussion and the Debating Chamber) but side-tracks and diversions are almost never discouraged here. Accusations of thread jacking are usually only self-applied as such: :tjack: or  :offtopic:  (see Griffin's post re: parking early in the thread).

The wandering style can make things a little messy, so when we go way too far off topic someone will usually just request that the diverted part of the thread off be lopped off and rooted somewhere else (propagation by cuttings, if you like ;D).  The Snark and Rant area actually isn't considered to be overly serious and is probably quite prone to thread drift compared to other places.  Incidentally, it didn't wander into noxious bodily functions on its own  ;) ;) ;), but that sort of thing is far from unusual, so please don't take that as a criticism or calling-to-task for something earlier in the thread.

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In the context of this thread, your OP was a fine rant and stood alone quite well.  Looking back, I notice that I was the first one to start picking it apart ( :oops: ) but honestly I didn't mean to cause offense or detract from the rant itself, just to provoke a little further exploration of the concept.  I can definitely say that I agree with the spirit of the rant and have often visited this theme in RL discussions (ask my wife). If anything, I think I interpreted it as a bit old hat and self-evident to anyone who's not completely bogged down in the monoculture, so to speak, and therefore found it more interesting to take a contrarian stand than to offer an unqualified agreement.

Another factor is that I think that I've personally shifted my social viewpoint from the macrocultural towards intercultural and interpersonal interactions as I've gotten older and tend to be much more interested in people and things that stand out from the monocultural wasteland than at fussing at the shortcomings of the system.  Put me in a gravel parking lot and I'll probably start looking for pretty rocks instead of lamenting the lack of scenery  ::) - actually, that's not a probably, the last time I was working in a gravel parking lot I found a rock with a whole bunch of fossilized snail and mussel shells embedded in it; I'm currently collecting small, round stones as I find them.  :mrgreen: 

I am an odd blend of pessimist and optimist; I generally assume the worst but celebrate anything that does not conform to that assumption.  I find this ensures I'm rarely disappointed by the big crap and often delighted by small things.

Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 03, 2009, 08:08:32 PM
"Pyrogy"?  I think back East, in the US, they call those "pot stickers".   I think... yes?  ???  :mrgreen:

I saw a whole show on it from "America's Test Kitchen's (http://www.americastestkitchen.com/)", about how simple it is to make your own superior item.   Although, all the one's I've had, were either veggie or meat-filled.  I've not had, nor heard of a cheese one.... sounds yummy.

Pyrogy is specifically the Eastern European food (the "Chinese Perogies" I reference = potstickers, more or less, at least as I've heard the term applied).  Potato and cheese is the best-known version, sauerkraut is somewhat popular, and it's possible even to have sweet fillings.  I'm sure they are made in other countries, but they are mostly associated with the Ukraine.   Dumplings (filled unleavened dough, not bread-cooked-in-broth) of one sort or another are ubiquitous in most parts of the world.  Sauerkraut perogies are very much analogous to kimchi mandu, for example, and meat dumplings are everywhere.

:offtopic:

Quote from: Agujjim on October 06, 2009, 05:20:33 AM
and meat dumplings are everywhere.

Are you talking about empanadas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empanadas)? ;)

I was focusing more on varenyky types ("boiled things"), but there's that whole group that crosses over towards using bread or pastry as the wrapper that is also similar.

Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 05, 2009, 04:54:42 PM
Now, here in the States there is something else against them, which is the IMNSHO the idiotic measure to make elections in a regular working day, as opposed to a Sunday when at least a majority of people isn't working. If you aren't paid for making a line (for hours in some cases) and will get a reprimand (or even get fired) in such cases, why risk your job on something that will change little of your practical life?

Actually?  There are serious repercussions, if a person asks for a bit'o'time to go vote, and is refused.  Or, if he/she votes and is reprimanded by the boss for it.  But then again?  Many poor do not know this law is on the USA books, or they work "unofficially" (cash/under the table/streets/etc).

However, I think the chief cause [for not voting] is belief that it matters not how they vote, or even if they vote at all-- you are correct about that.

And, while individually a vote matters little or not at all, collectively, votes add up.  If the poor ever figured this out, and started voting in their own interests, instead of what they're told to do (by lying "pastors", by lying politicians*, by misleading ads) we'd soon have fewer poor, and even fewer rich...  ::)

________

_{* sorry for the redundancy.... but a "lying politician" is an especially heinous subset of the typical politician. Yes, we are aware that a politician lies every time he/she opens his/her mouth.  But a lying politician is far worse than that-- he/she actually *believes* the lies he/she is spouting are true ...}   


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Edit:  reply to Zan's post

Quote from: Zan on October 05, 2009, 10:17:59 PM
Thanks, but when we were directed here, we were given an impression of the board which seems to have been inaccurate.  Since then, the person who invited us has told me that I am not a suitable candidate for this board.

So without any fuss or hysterics, I shall depart.  Thanks for having me, it's been fun.

I, for one, would be sorry to see you go:  you've managed to do something no one else has managed in a long while-- create enough interest in a subject, to get me to post several times.  I faithfully look in at the Monastery daily.  Most days?  I just say to myself, "mmmm-hmmm" and close the tab-- sans comment.

A bit'o'strring up roun' here is a good thing, even if you don't quite match the drapes...

What I do sometimes instead of double post is hit quote, copy, back to my post, and hit the "edit" button. It's easy. Or I just go quote, copy, back, quote next comment, paste, etc. That's easy too. As long as I am only writing in repsonse to one quote at a time I find it manageable.

We really don't have many rules compared to most forums, so it's nice to have those we do have respected.

If you look around, you can see pretty much what our style is.

Also, we expect people to disagree and discuss, but not argue.

How about monoculture in forums? ;)

Ha! good one. I was wondering if this would wander that way, eventually.

I guess I stand with Aggie. I did the openly nonconformist thing back in the last century (and I won't say how far back). Now my nonconformity is more of an inward thing, and I'm happy to report that the older I get, the less self-conscious I feel, and oddly enough, it makes me display my differences less. I don't have to have blue hair any more. I know I'm off from the average, and that's enough for me.

Similarly, I do not feel the need to rail against McDonald's. I just don't give them my business on a regular basis. I don't make a big deal about being a vegetarian to people, either. I don't care what you eat, but personally I don't feel like contributing to the big malnutrition and deforestation companies, so let me eat my overpriced organic salad, dammit.

People make their own choices about where they go and whether or not they will support a company. In the end, it will not be simply complaining about monoculture that will solve the problem, but allowing people to educate themselves and make their own decisions might. Everyone making the same decision could be thought of as conformity only if they are making it based on fitting in. If they are making decisions based on their own personal interest in the world, then they are not conforming. But that's just my opinion.

Yahoo for yours, too.

^ * rumble *



As I age, I take great delight in noticing how very homogeneous and must-conform an intentionally nonconformist culture can be, in all its expressions.

While I dislike the elements of monoculture which (I think!) I understand from Zan's comments, the tension between conform/rebel seems endemic to the human condition.

(A current US culture example: all those people screaming at so-called public health debates, doing their individual bests to stand out from the crowd in a competitive effort to prevent *others* from straying from their crowd's preferred mindset...)

(I suspect the same people vigilantly monitor their neighbors for any deviations from Homeowner's Association-approved paint colors, landscaping, holiday displays, fraternizing, parking arrangements, etc., while writing strongly worded letters to their local Times  about the importance of defending their personal freedoms and the looming threat of Government / Public Education / Hollywood / Science / any other religion / Art / et cetera from encroaching on their Personal Rights...)

Quote from: Oscar WildeA red rose is not selfish because it wants to be a red rose. It would be horribly selfish if it wanted all the other flowers in the garden to be both red and roses.

As I understand the concept, monoculture is not about conforming/rebelling, at all. It is about the disappearance of discrete, distinctive regional cultures separated by geography.

Quote from: Jayna on October 06, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
As I understand the concept, monoculture is not about conforming/rebelling, at all. It is about the disappearance of discrete, distinctive regional cultures separated by geography.

I cannot substantially disagree.

And I must ask:  so?

::)

In this modern era, we still find adherents to ancient cultures, right here in the USA-- the Navajos come immediately to mind.

I also see that within the greater whole, there are emerging smaller sub-cultures if you will:  the emo types, the PIB's*, the hip-hop-ers, vampire-wanna-be's, and so on and so on.  (Saw a kid today, who was desperately trying to fit into the hip-hop crowd-- pants down around his knees, 3 layers of under-pants on (each "artfully" exposed), hat turned around to a silly angle, too-loud rap music on his player.  And?  The kid was whiter than I am... _{(to quote Dennis Leary)}

The language of each of these has it's own internal consistency, spelling, grammar and other cultural-based rules-- as rigidly followed as any other "mainstream" culture.

I think the more we (we--as a species, here) move to global monoculture, the more these sub-groups will emerge, distinct and individual.

So what if the main fast-food is a multinational chain?  If the people who frequent them are as individual as snowflakes?   Humans are what they choose to be-- regardless of the outer trappings, regardless of the shopping preferences.

I don't see even a remote danger of humanity becoming a plain box of vanilla wafers-- if nothing else?  The young people won't stand for it; they'll create something--anything, to separate their generation from the previous one.

And no matter how subtle the variances, they will always be with us.

_____

As a flip side-- as I wrote this, and reviewed it for errors, I thought about it a bit.

We are in the Information Age:  never before in the history of humankind, has storing, cataloging, preserving information been so cheap and anti-labor intensive.   In the past, just writing a single book was literally the labor of a person's lifetime-- a person *might* write two-- if he/she lived long enough, and had enough money lying about.   And?  If, by some miracle, the book was laboriously copied?  As many as 10 people might actually read it... !

Then along comes cheap printing-- and a glut of both historical records, but a plethora of preservation of What Happened On Such-and-Such Day.   But?  Storage of books is still costly, time-consuming and labor intensive.

Now?

Since 2006, I, personally, have written more than 20,000 posts over on Topix.  This is likely the equivalent to at least a novel in length-- maybe two (I tend to go on...).  And just in my spare time...

...and the storage and preservation of those words is free.  The cost is so incredibly low?  It's more or less ignored by the providers of Topix.

My point?  Information preservation is essentially free, these days.

And the preservation of odd or unusual or interesting small cultures is more or less a given:  sure, everyone who lived that culture may pass on, but it's art, it's language, it's mores, it's heart?  These can be preserved like never before in human history.

And with the advent of global communication?  If there remains 3 or 5 or 21 people who wish to participate in that culture?  The global inter-tubes permits them to "gather" together for mutual support.

_____

In my opinion, I think the more the "monoculture" appears to encroach?  The more individual people will become, as a counter-response.  Sure, the majority may frequent McD's or StarBucks-- so what?  Eating at McD's does not make one into a Ronald, any more than eating eggs makes one into a chicken...


_____

<sub>* PIB's.... People In Black..... sometimes called "goths".   Supposedly non-conformist, but to join their sub-culture, you have to wear black, have lots of peircings, have black hair, pale (or whitened) skin and only listen to their music.  To fully non-conform, of course.   :mrgreen:

In a nod to a South Park episode...</sub>

The only real rebuttal I have to any of this is already contained in my earlier post from a few days ago; that travelling to different cultures generates a very unique kind of intellectual stimulation and I'm sad to see that disappear.

Quote from: Jayna on October 06, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
As I understand the concept, monoculture is not about conforming/rebelling, at all. It is about the disappearance of discrete, distinctive regional cultures separated by geography.

I don't think they're going to disappear. They're just going to change, that's all. People are going to take what they like from the super culture and mix and match it with their own individual cultures.

Quote from: Jayna on October 07, 2009, 12:27:00 AM
The only real rebuttal I have to any of this is already contained in my earlier post from a few days ago; that travelling to different cultures generates a very unique kind of intellectual stimulation and I'm sad to see that disappear.

I'm fairly sure that it's not going to disappear--it's just going to change. There are going to be elements you recognize from the super culture (which might make it less immediately stimulating), but they're going to be modified to fit into and with the original culture of the area (which is where the fun is--how did they change it? What does it mean to them?).

Though perhaps you can argue that what makes a culture unique can be diluted or touristified, like Indian blankets. Meanings can be lost that way or sacrificed in the name of profit.

Quote from: Jayna on October 07, 2009, 12:27:00 AM
The only real rebuttal I have to any of this is already contained in my earlier post from a few days ago; that travelling to different cultures generates a very unique kind of intellectual stimulation and I'm sad to see that disappear.

The bit of international traveling (mostly Asia/Pacific) I've done suggests this is unlikely to happen any time soon. North America certainly is prone to homogenization of the shopping experience, which I put firmly down to car-culture. Where the main mode of transportation is personal vehicles, the easiest way to shop or eat is to go somewhere with a large parking lot - this means big-box stores and/or strip malls.  Since these are standardized, it's more convenient for consumers to simply visit the closest outlet of a chain rather than drive across the city to find the BEST independent vendor for a particular good.  Where cars are not ubiquitous, or where parking/real estate is very expensive, it's preferable to cluster similar types of products in a particular district of a city so that those taking transit and/or on foot can assess all the options quickly and easily.  We in N.A. lose out on competitiveness to a large degree, because instead of having 50 options in 1 location, we tend to get 1 option in 50 convenient locations, but no real choice.

On the other hand, North America has the advantage of major waves of immigration from all over the world, and new immigrants bring in major heterogeneity in the shopping and dining areas (BIG advantage of living in a city as opposed to a small town).  Immigration patterns also tend to be highly regional (new immigrants tend to go where there are lots of people who speak the same language, eat the same food and share the same background), so while we may be losing last century's minor regional variations on Euro-American culture, in many cases this is being replaced by completely new and more variable regional cultures.  Greater Vancouver comes to mind as a great example of a city whose cultural identity is strongly tied to the immigrant community (traditionally Chinese but now increasingly Sikh in many areas).

I suspect that over the next century we'll see a continuation of the homogenization of staple items but a much greater variety of the things that are really worth getting variety in.  Really, if you need a hammer, do you need a local hammer or will the local big-box hardware store suffice?  I've noticed that the local grocery stores, OTOH, are now being forced to carry a much greater variety of ethnic food products to compete with small retailers, and there's no way they can be as nimble in offering the specific products that people want, especially when the quantities sold are relatively small or the products are perishable.

On the topic of supermarkets, factory farming is also a main contributor to homogenization, I think - supermarket chains now find it easier and cheaper to ship from major producers than source local products.  Because we don't need to depend on locally grown produce and are getting accustomed to eating the same things in all seasons, we have lost many regional varieties of any particular food plant you can name.  On the other hand, we get many foreign produce items that would have been impossible to taste 100 years ago (durian! mangosteens! guavas! mangos! and so on).  Does this make us more or less homogenized overall?

This again may be more of a North American phenomenon than a global concern - we have many wide-open spaces conducive to massive agro-industrial operations, and good highway systems to transport from central growing regions.  In many countries, the land is too fractured or mountainous to carry out industrial farming, so small farms tend to be the rule.  It's advantageous for a small farmer to sell as much produce as possible locally, because they lack the economies of scale which make up for the cost of shipping (from the perspective of the end consumer).

Counter-intuitively, it's sometimes the local colour that is driving homogenization. I come from a major fruit-growing region of Canada and have been exasperated to find fruit from the US on supermarket shelves when the same fruit is in season locally; I spoke with a produce manager in a good local indie grocer and they explained that it's nearly impossible for the store to get local fruit in season at any price these days because the growers have figured out they can sell it for exorbitant prices at farmer's markets and local fruit stands.

IOW, the locals have been cut out of the local culture to scalp a few extra dollars to the damned tourists who go there to get the local flavour, as Scrib suggests can happen. ::) 

I dunno. I've noticed a distinct difference between travelling the USA in the 1980's and travelling it now... there seems distinctly less difference in regional cultures, making it necessary to travel abroad to experience that jolt of strangeness.

I think abroad is pretty safe. We can't even agree on the European Union and all those other non-EU countries are massively different.

Anway, London will soon be very different as all the Hedge Fund managers are fleeing to Switzerland.