well the banks and credit institution had theirs... the auto industry (man I can't believe it!) is having it...
why not me?
I could use having the goverment paying for the remainder of my car loan, my credid cards and, last but not least, my daughter's hospital bill (uncovered by employer's insuarnce because I had completed 2 months of service yet!) of over 18K...
I want a bail out too...
anyone else? :deadhorse:
Yes, yes- I want a bailout, too. What do I have to do, get a private jet?
Nah Opsa, we just have to be rich enough to hire lobbists :)
Put me on the list. Not that my debts are that big, but my needs...
Da Gubbermint (parts of it) isn't returning my letters anymore. (Medicare, FDA...they don't want to talk to me. I cannot imagine why...)
Me tooooooooooo!
Me, me, me, me, me.
and you, and you, and you, and you
Quote from: stellinacadente on December 12, 2008, 01:57:17 AM
Nah Opsa, we just have to be rich enough to hire lobbists :)
I can't afford a jet or lobbyists. Do you think they'll settle for you, Chatty, Anthro and me riding in on a Greyhound bus?
I don't know about that Opsa... if you can't afford lobbiest. chances are you _don't need_ a bail out :mua:
Quote from: stellinacadente on December 11, 2008, 07:07:12 AM
well the banks and credit institution had theirs... the auto industry (man I can't believe it!) is having it...
why not me?
I could use having the goverment paying for the remainder of my .....................
I want a bail out too...
anyone else? :deadhorse:
It's your past and future taxes baliing "them" out. That's why you can't have one. It would be a crime not a bail out if you got to keep your own taxes. ;)
Does that answer your question?
nope... sorry... why do I have to pay taxes to bail Managers earning millions and giving themselves millions in bonuses and they're not even able to do their job since they all drove us into this swamp????
I want all my taxes for the next 3 years and I still want to be bailed out LOL
(Just kidding Griffin....I know the little guy never wins in this global economy and politics... too bad we are the foundation of it :) )
What I hate is that if they're going to use the money at least do it properly. If they want to 'entice' the banks to loan again you start a full nationalization of one of them and start loaning at a lower rate, later when the bank is financially OK you sell it at a profit (not going to happen, I know).
Still the bailout is small potatoes compared to all the money wasted in the defense sector (not counting the wars). In the end I suspect that no more than 10% of our taxes gets back to us while the rest is auctioned to the highest bidder... >:(
I think there should be serious conditions placed on all bailouts, with the first one being, "Guess what? We just bought your company and the entire executive team that's been running things into the ground will be shadowed by watchful HR personnel and escorted to their cars as soon as they pack up the *personal* contents of their desks this afternoon. Since they are being terminated for performance issues, there will be no severance pay."
Meanwhile, I've been listening to blue collar and non-auto union (! ! !) people earnestly explaining to me why bailing out Wall Street was bad, although doing it with no curtailments is correct as the white collar employees affected *make* money. But bailing out the Big 3 would be a terrible disaster, because "out of control Big Labor" and its greed to get the highest wages and benefits possible for blue collar workers "sitting on their asses and doing nothing" while "expecting health insurance and other 'entitlement mentality' benefits" are what has caused the entire problem.
I asked whether Big Labor [which I agree needs some internal housekeeping, being a human organization and all] shouldn't be congratulated for acheiving the American [Capitalist] Dream: getting the highest amount of money possible for the least amount of product possible, with no ceilings as it's socialism to artificially cap what people should be allowed to earn from their ingenuity.
;)
Labor unions are the ultimate evil, as setting a minimum wage, rest on Sundays and only 8 hours of work per day.
We must go back to the practices of the early XIX century and everything will magically will fix itself. ::) ::) ::)
My Dad was a union big wig. He told me that workers need to be protected from management bull carp. Things like firing people a year before they retire and such. From what I understand labor cost are only ten percent of the cost of a vehicle. Another thing I heard was that Toyota workers make more than GM union laborers. Also the workers at Toyota, Nissan and Honda don't want the UAW and they vote on it every year, more than likely it's because they don't need them as they have good management.
The problem with American car companies is they build the cars they want to build and not the cars people want to buy. I suspect that the "labor" issue is just a straw-man argument.
I'll bet you're right, MB. The nerve of those guys trying to put the blame on the workers who are only trying to protect themselves!
Union fees are expensive and as everything else the price you pay is relative to the benefit you receive, if the japanese treat their workers well then there isn't a need to pay extra. Given that certain industries care more for quick profits than good products the opposite isn't surprising.
Unions can have a dark side, but we need them to keep a minimal security against abuse.
Quote from: MentalBlock996 on December 16, 2008, 02:26:46 PM
The problem with American car companies is they build the cars they want to build and not the cars people want to buy. I suspect that the "labor" issue is just a straw-man argument.
I think there's a bit of substance to it. I saw figures saying that worker health/retirement benefits added over $1000 a car, whereas in those evil pinko European/Asian countries health costs are spread across all taxpayers, not paid by employers. Of course the U.S. also shot itself in the foot on steel tariffs but that was 2002 so the effect has long gone.
Ford have good efficient models in Europe (e.g. Focus), but I'm guessing Americans didn't want to drive something that small until oil prices brought about a sudden re-evaluation which caught manufacturers on the hop. Ford and GM with big trucks/SUVs are a bit like Sony and CRT screens IMHO; they just didn't realize how quickly the wind could change.
They had to have know. I knew it. Who didn't know the price of oil was going to go up. The automobile manufacturers just don't want to change. They wrap themselves in the flag and say, "buy American," so they can keep building the same crappy gas hogs they've been building for 60 years, because they know they will get free money from the gubmint.
I knew it too, and was absolutely gob-smacked when Ford (and other US auto company) commercials continued to promote SUV gas hogs and the notion of "power" connected with them. It was even more amazing how gullible some people were to have gone and bought these monsters. What the heck were they thinking? They are big, inefficient, expensive to buy, and expensive to run. They were irresponsible and I don't feel sorry for them.
They should have halted all work on those beasts and focused on the hybrids. People want to buy hybrids and other efficient vehicles. The more they make, the less expensive they'll be and the more people will buy them. Even an idiot like me can figure this out. These companies just didn't want to spend money on the new research, but they will be forced to do so, if they survive. They'd be doing their workers and the rest of us a favor if they did.
Ughh...
I can't beleive that the commitment to hybrids or other energy types has been inacted upon. Here we only have the Toyota Prius to point to of late. Where's the others?
Let's just buy the patents, sit on them and make sure they never see the light of day. Good strategy guys.
Not good...not good... (begins chanting)
What I want to know is why this financial global crisis is not being used as an opportunity for CHaNGE...
It's fabulous these manufacturers are unable to continue production................. What Luck !!
Don't bail out the automobile manufacturers so they can go on producing the same old same old.
Use this bail out to enforce the manufacture of electric and hybrids.
If nothing else is being made, people will either stop driving (good) or be forced to drive clean (good).
** available to advise governments - fees reasonable - hours erratic
Quote from: Griffin NoName on December 17, 2008, 09:04:16 PM
What I want to know is why this financial global crisis is not being used as an opportunity for CHaNGE...
I think maybe more than enough changes are already occurring at once for our political masters. Ford and GM aren't the only big corporations that will fail if they can't roll over debt, and they're scared of a domino effect of failure of confidence. Who's going to make a big ticket purchase of anything if they think it might be unsupported in a few months?
This is going to be a fun hole to climb out of. :irony:
I heard someone say that the auto bailout was more or less a bailout of their healthcare plans. Ford alone has, like, $16 million in benefits they have to pay for.
Suspect it might be a bit more than that; I read they spent $3.5bn on healthcare in 2005 alone. :o
It's a cost their competitors don't have. In Europe (not so sure about Asia) health care is paid for by the state (i.e. ALL taxpayers). The most companies sometimes do is offer subsidised health insurance to key workers, but it's a taxable benefit so many don't take it up, and it often only kicks in if the national health service has long waiting times for something, so it's a fraction of the premium cost of U.S. insurance. Also Americans have higher health care expectations on service and convenience, which puts the cost way up.
Having said all that, no doubt in my mind that Honda/Toyota have far better strategies.
Quote from: Opsanus tau on December 17, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
I knew it too, and was absolutely gob-smacked when Ford (and other US auto company) commercials continued to promote SUV gas hogs and the notion of "power" connected with them. It was even more amazing how gullible some people were to have gone and bought these monsters. What the heck were they thinking? They are big, inefficient, expensive to buy, and expensive to run. They were irresponsible and I don't feel sorry for them.
They should have halted all work on those beasts and focused on the hybrids. People want to buy hybrids and other efficient vehicles. The more they make, the less expensive they'll be and the more people will buy them. Even an idiot like me can figure this out. These companies just didn't want to spend money on the new research, but they will be forced to do so, if they survive. They'd be doing their workers and the rest of us a favor if they did.
Sadly, there *is* a market for those ridiculous vehicles. There is a small but very well-heeled sector of the population which cannot stop itself from spending its obscene wealth on disposable, faddish status symbols designed to use as much land - water - gasoline - [fill in the blank with any endangered or limited resource which can be marketed as "upscale"] as possible
because they can. A few years ago I saw a horrible bit on PBS (?) showcasing *very* wealthy consumers in the Dallas-Ft Worth area gleefully shopping for what I call "Urban Assualt Vehicles" -- monster SUVs which none of those people had the slightest honest need for. They got all stoopid-patriotic when queried about the 8-miles-gallon fuel consumption during the clear beginning of the gas price rise/acknowledged limits on availability, whinging about their "American Lifestyle" which they seemed to believe was a god-given right, written by the Almighty Himself in the Consitution.
>:( :P :'(
Meanwhile, I'm surrounded by otherwise very nice people who wish they were among those who can afford Hummers and will therefore defend to their own deaths the rights of idiots to have a full selection of them each model year. They think there is somethin suspiciously anti-murkin, librul and tree-huggin [<a *terrible* insult here!] about me because I strongly endorse efficient public transport and smaller, affordable, efficient hybrid personal vehicles. Those who truly
need to pull livestock trailers livestock or haul around piles and piles o'stuff in giant honking pickups,
fine. The majority *don't* need to take up an entire lane in vehicles too large to see around, over, or under!
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! ANTI-TOADFISH SENTIMENT AHEAD!If their dicks *would* actually fall off from driving a responsible, reasonably sized vehicle, well, it's no great loss in my opinion...
Quote from: pieces o nine on December 18, 2008, 08:14:32 AM
Sadly, there *is* a market for those ridiculous vehicles. There is a small but very well-heeled sector of the population which cannot stop itself from spending its obscene wealth on disposable, faddish status symbols designed to use as much land - water - gasoline - [fill in the blank with any endangered or limited resource which can be marketed as "upscale"] as possible because they can.
This is my entire town. The elementary school I went to hosts no fewer than three Hummers, I see no fewer than four a day, and THEN we have the asphalt schooners that wallow along, filling the entire lane.
One advantage, however, is the bro (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro)'d* out Hummers that you can see
under.
*see definition 3 if you're confused.
Quote from: pieces o nine on December 18, 2008, 08:14:32 AM
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! ANTI-TOADFISH SENTIMENT AHEAD!
If their dicks *would* actually fall off from driving a responsible, reasonably sized vehicle, well, it's no great loss in my opinion...
Clearly the term BCSD (coined by a famous English brothel madam based on her observations) which starts "big car" hasn't reached you yet.
Quote from: beagle on December 18, 2008, 10:00:40 PM
Clearly the term BCSD (coined by a famous English brothel madam based on her observations) which starts "big car" hasn't reached you yet.
I'm familiar with the concept. I drove a Pontiac Firefly for 8 years.... ;) ;D :mrgreen:
We finally moved up to something bigger (old-model Hyundai Santa Fe - DON'T call it an SUV) but with a fuel-sipping 2.4L engine. We've been driving a lot less lately, haven't readjusted based on the lower fuel prices - hey, if it's going to keep dropping, the longer between fills the better. :)
I saw a Suzuki Sidekick or similar tiny jeepish vehicle the other day that had been custom rebranded with Hummer nameplates and "H8" where the model decal would normally be. :ROFL:
Quick cut to B/CS Target parking lot, where a HUGE honking Hummer is in the handicapped parking spaces (two of them, yes, BOTH at once) that were available as I headed toward them.
OK, no HC tags, no HC hanger...
So, I get out, with my trusty cane (the 4 footed extra support/extra poking thing model) and holler at the two Bro/Frat Rat types heading into the store..."You pussies gonna move this Small Dick Compensation Machine, or do I need to get the cops to do it for you?"
One hollers back, "Try it, Ho." I flipped open my cell, called the cops, and watched as they pulled in. (My passenger had already called them on HIS cell. I LIKE having a cousin that's the City Manager for that city.)
They ticketed them, they towed the vehicle, and they arrested one of them for threatening me and the other for a possession charge and then 4 outstanding warrants.
Oh, and I wrote "Small Dick Compensation" in the dirt on the rear window...
My cousin wants to have them hire me to go piss off people that park illegally in the handicapped spaces. Nepotism!! (Except that I can't have any lawful income or I lose my medical coverage...and the city won't pay me under the table.)
That was kinda fun...
Quote from: beagle on December 18, 2008, 10:00:40 PMClearly the term BCSD (coined by a famous English brothel madam based on her observations) which starts "big car" hasn't reached you yet.
Oh, it has. ;)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Topic Tangent: an old friend's sibling, spouse, and un-housebroken kinder-units were at her parents' house one day when we were there. Sib & Spouse were upset because the little girl
(whom they had festooned in a miasma of frilly lace and petticoats) was playing with the monster-tire toy trucks belonging to her little brother
(who was machismo-duded up by his "afeared a' the homerseckshooall agenda" parents). They kept trying to make her play with 'girl toys' but she wanted the trucks. I suggested that they let her play with them, because if they insisted on dressing her that way, it's exactly what she'd be riding around in all too soon.
Friend and her parents bit their tongues to keep from laughing.
Sib & Spouse were Not Amused.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Chatty: good for you! :halo:
Maybe they could "hire" you to do this as a sort of ...
hmmmm ... "ministry" ... (if the church-state line is as blurry in your area as in other parts of the South?).
Quote from: beagle on December 17, 2008, 09:33:15 PM
Quote from: Griffin NoName on December 17, 2008, 09:04:16 PM
What I want to know is why this financial global crisis is not being used as an opportunity for CHaNGE...
I think maybe more than enough changes are already occurring at once for our political masters. Ford and GM aren't the only big corporations that will fail if they can't roll over debt, and they're scared of a domino effect of failure of confidence. Who's going to make a big ticket purchase of anything if they think it might be unsupported in a few months?
So change the political masters. All of 'em. Prospective and Actual.
I do not ignore the other points, including healthcare etc. but on the "if it aint broke dont fix it" approach, it's time for the "if it is broke, ditch it".
The post WWII western world has failed. Stop patching it up and applying sticking plasters. When will this be recognised?
Where's Goat when we need him?
Quote from: Griffin NoName on December 19, 2008, 07:36:18 PM
The post WWII western world has failed. Stop patching it up and applying sticking plasters. When will this be recognised?
When someone produces a less bad system that works?
Quote
Where's Goat when we need him?
Lure both Goat and Kiyo back and they can discuss the relative merits of the two world views. ;D
Quote from: Griffin NoName on December 19, 2008, 07:36:18 PM
The post WWII western world has failed. Stop patching it up and applying sticking plasters. When will this be recognised?
Last couple shifts:
Napoleonic Wars
WWI
WWII
Cold War
9/11 (for the US, anyway)
What's happened each time? The band aids refused to stick and the stitches ripped. And then we re-organized ourselves. We won't have the option of war, which seems to be a great re-organizer, so I don't know.