Fighting it out on the buses (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3229106/Prof-Richard-Dawkins-drives-support-for-Londons-first-atheist-bus-advert.html).
This is not going to "help people think". It will just help bombard people with more carp.
Isn't bus riding hell enough as it is?
Not sure I agree. If the religious really are threatening eternal damnation (and if they are, it hasn't reached Cambridge Park & Ride yet, or more likely they've written the city off), then they fired the first shots and deserve to be challenged, IMHO.
Oh, I agree, that they were obnoxious to do it in the first place, but how is lobbing more carp going to help matters?
Because if there are vulnerable people on the bus who can't or won't confirm to church norms they won't feel alone.
No one else (with the possible exception of the TV Licensing authority) would get away with threats and intimidation in adverts. Why should the church?
I don't think the church should have gotten away with it in the first place. Maybe the atheistic shoot-backs will help put the matter to bed once and for all. But what about us innocent non-Christian non-Atheists who are in the cross-fire?
Dunno Beag, maybe I'm just sick of all the presidential campaign ads.
Mmm... how would be a smear add against Cardinal Ratzinger? :devil2:
Opsa, I like it. Fundamentally (sic), liking it may be a bit British rather than cross-fires or presidental etc. We don't really go in for particularly loud advertising. Our buses are a central and accepted method of getting our messages across now we don't have a whole industry of sandwich boards. I have to say, it still deeply shocks me to see ads on taxis, but buses no, that's fine. It's also a bit like Speakers Corner. No one really minds what the hell they are saying even if they can understand it. I also think it is probably important that we got our major religious battles out the way by setting fire to, and beheading people, a long time ago, after which it all got rather tame. Not being CoE I maybe shouldn't pronounce on it, but it has always seemed to me a sort of status quo thing more than a religion <<<G-d forgive me! >>. As my sister, a Jew, said when marrying a Roman Catholic, that's ok, we'll just be CoE.
In any case, as a driver, I shall probably continue to focus on the signs on the bus that indicate I am being caught on CCTV as I drive along behind them ;) Much more relevant than being judged by the Lord. ;)
I think it is SPLENDID. More like this please !
Fundraising (http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus) target was £5,500.00 and donations only began today. The target was reached by 10:06 am. It now stands at £ 47,955.00 plus another £11,513.49 in Gift Aid (a UK charitable Tax back scheme) still less than 24 hours after fundraising started. There are already 33 pages of donators names. And lot's of great comments.
And all that without Geldoff having to stage a single bit of music or comedy, or anyone having to approach any aluminium-rich Russians ;)
Not bad for a country in recession ?
EDIT: re the fundraising organisation - quite surprised to see all three of the breast cancer charities I am involved with actually members. Bit miffed by vat and 5% charge taken out if not Gift Aided. And what exactly has FaceBook to do with it?
If they tried that over here, in LaLa land, the buses in question would likely be burned to the ground....
Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 22, 2008, 05:20:43 AM
If they tried that over here, in LaLa land, the buses in question would likely be burned to the ground....
No kidding.
Being an atheist in a fundie area has given me a deep loathing for all forms of proselytism. That's what that is. I want to punch anyone that tries to convert me to anything.
That said, I totally agree with Dawkins and would probably smirk if I saw that on a bus.
Quote from: Scriblerus the Philosophe on October 22, 2008, 06:33:50 AM
Being an atheist in a fundie area has given me a deep loathing for all forms of proselytism. That's what that is. I want to punch anyone that tries to convert me to anything.
Quote from: Dawkins
This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think - and thinking is anathema to religion.
Is thinking an alternate religion?
Can one be converted to thinking?
Does this overlap with my thread on Chaos in Human Concerns?
For me, personally, I'm not that sold on making people think by slogans. I don't see it as likely to be effective for most people at the deepest level where change is needed. But then I trained as a therapist and what a waste if a bus can do the same thing. ;)
Liked the "Bet you won't try this in Riyadh comment"...
Quote from: Griffin NoName on October 22, 2008, 07:30:47 AM
Quote from: Dawkins
This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think - and thinking is anathema to religion.
Is thinking an alternate religion?
Can one be converted to thinking?
To be fair you could say that religion properly understood encourages thinking, and that thinking is anathema to
fundamentalist religion.
Nevertheless I agree that if you can make religious damning statements in public buses, you can make atheist statements too, and I for one find it refreshing.
How is Atheistic proselytism any better than Fundie proselytism, especially if you believe that all proselytism sux?
Quote from: Opsanus tau on October 22, 2008, 04:41:06 PM
How is Atheistic proselytism any better than Fundie proselytism, especially if you believe that all proselytism sux?
It's not any better. Less annoying, perhaps, but no better.
Probably not and it may be the distinction between the high road and the low road, but you can argue that it is perfectly valid and within the rights of those doing it to do so, besides when all the voices you hear loudly are claiming damnation, I find refreshing someone claiming that there may not be as such, that it isn't a settled argument, and that other people think differently.
I agree that there should be a better way to express those sentiments without blatant proselytism (perhaps an atheist equivalent of gay pride parades) but still those married with their dogma will find any expression of dissent offensive.
Quote from: Opsanus tau on October 22, 2008, 04:41:06 PM
How is Atheistic proselytism any better than Fundie proselytism, especially if you believe that all proselytism sux?
Because they're saying there
probably isn't a God, and they're not threatening anyone with eternal torment if they disagree?
Strictly speaking the proposed advert is not Atheist. It's Agnostic. And I don't see how not knowing can be proselytising. And what Beagle said.
If you read the comments on the donation site there's a fair number of people objecting to the "probably", and a determination to keep it in the wording.
I like the various thoughts regarding thinking.
I see the chief problem among the world's populations (at least in the so-called "first world") is a severe lack of thinking, and a seemingly increased reliance on feelings.
*cue sappy musical score*
"Feeeeeelings.....Oh-woah-woah those feeeeeelings...!"
*noise of needle dragging forcably off the record--abrupt ceasing of music*
Feelings, at best, are a useful gauge to help us make decisions about issues where there is insufficient information to make a purely logical conclusion. A sort of quick-and-dirty short-cut decision.
And, in this context, it can be quite useful, especially for wholly trivial decisions (as in, "what's for dinner" and "what color shall I wear today").
But, sadly, many folk have discarded thinking entirely in favor of feelings-based "decisions."
Moreover, this fuzzy non-think has so deeply contaminated our societies, that the phrase "you just have to have faith" is not considered a joke, but an actual example of wisdom!
To be sure: faith, coupled with reason is a powerful combination, and I wouldn't suggest we ought to trash that even a little bit. Even the most avid "non-believer" has faith in something, if nothing more than herself.
But faith coupled with.....more faith? That is a road that easily becomes corrupt.
*cue erie musical interlude*
Hale-Bopp comet, anyone? Be sure you have your approved tennis shoes on. Poisoned drink mix is available in the kitchen.....
............
Lazy minds find it easier to use "feeling-based" decision-making, than think-based decision-making.
Thinking is hard work. Ask anyone who makes a living by thinking (programmers, engineers, scientists, researchers, etc. I'm certain I've left out many thinking-as-work professions).
Emoting is easy: we do it unconsciously.
............
If only it were as easy as putting posters on a bus, to jump-start people's lazy brains back into thinking again....
Here's a couple of comments from donors to cheer Beagle up:
"I didn't see the point in making a donation, until I saw a snotty Telegragh piece on it. Plaster 'em everywhere!!
"Thank you BHA, thank you Guardian"
Launch piece http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/21/religion-advertising
Origins at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/20/transport.religion
Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on October 22, 2008, 11:09:16 PMFeelings, at best, are a useful gauge to help us make decisions about issues where there is insufficient information to make a purely logical conclusion. A sort of quick-and-dirty short-cut decision.
And, in this context, it can be quite useful, especially for wholly trivial decisions (as in, "what's for dinner" and "what color shall I wear today").
Sir, I am compelled to defend such an accusation against the matter of What's For Dinner. ;)
no, actually not " ;) " - Food is the preeminent matter in our household (at least as important as Money, perhaps more as I will spend sums on Good Food that I will not spend on anything else consumable), and approached with utter seriousness on one hand and utter joy on the other. Finding safe, clean food has become a battle these days. :P
---------
On-topic.... the adverts as proposed are not horribly offensive. In any case, God does not throw dice, so S/He should not be concerned about conforming to probability. ;)
I'd be even more interested if the Other Side started a parody campaign stating simply
God Loves You. Now Stop Worrying And Enjoy Your Life. In fact, that might be a more effective way for the atheist side to encourage reasonable discourse, free thought and de-fundamentalization.
Quote from: Griffin NoName on October 23, 2008, 12:56:16 AM
"I didn't see the point in making a donation, until I saw a snotty Telegragh piece on it. Plaster 'em everywhere!!
Didn't seem at all snotty to me. Unless it was a separate editorial opinion piece from the one I posted. Guardian readers tend to assume the Establishment and Church are irreversibly connected in the Torygraph, but if they are it's subtle enough not to bother me; plenty of articles from all points of view.
I am all for it, but here is one I found which seems to take the middle ground:
(http://www.print.duncans.tv/images/mitre-10-holy-grill.jpg)
Don't mention that to the
:inquisition:
Spanish Inquisition!
:mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2:
The Telegraph piece didn't seem snotty to me either. But I felt compelled to be eclectic and reflect all views :mrgreen:
The rate of donations is slowing. Will there be a second wave?
Aggie, looks like one those Holy Grills would be ideal for you ;)
The Telegraph? SNOTTY? What the devil are you talking about woman..and get out of the gentleman's club at once!
Quote from: Black Bart on October 23, 2008, 04:08:09 PM
The Telegraph? SNOTTY? What the devil are you talking about woman..and get out of the gentleman's club at once!
:ROFL::
Nice. :mrgreen:
Quote from: Griffin NoName on October 22, 2008, 09:46:45 PM
And I don't see how not knowing can be proselytising.
An angle I haven't considered. Still, it's not voluntarily seeking information, which I would say is proselytizing.
Quote from: Wikipedia article Proselytism
Proselytism is the practice of attempting to convert people to another opinion and, particularly, another religion.
Good point, but that would make all adverts proslyletising. Which I suppose they are. Hmmmm.
I like "God Loves You. Now Stop Worrying And Enjoy Your Life."
"Maybe there is no god, so stop worrying about it and enjoy your life."
Someone once said to me:" &%@# God if he can't take a joke", which I thought was extremely rude and quite funny. Any Creator/Creatress would have invented humor and would have some appreciation for it, I would think. Maybe we need to stop taking our beliefs so seriously. Especially if they're only beliefs.
Or perhaps "Regardless of the existence or not of God and how much he does or not love you, stop worrying and enjoy your life". ;)
I think I like that one the best of all! :-*
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 23, 2008, 09:15:44 PM
Or perhaps "Regardless of the existence or not of God and how much he does or not love you, stop worrying and enjoy your life". ;)
Sorta like the message in this tune?
[youtube=425,350]yjnvSQuv-H4[/youtube]
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 23, 2008, 09:15:44 PM
Or perhaps "Regardless of the existence or not of God and how much he does or not love you, stop worrying and enjoy your life". ;)
IMHO all these versions are more proselytising than the proposed one. "Probably" does all that's needed for me.
IMHO the problem is the words "Stop worrying", if there is any problem ;)
A simple "Enjoy your life" would be less directive.
Then the whole would still address the issue that there is never any counter-view being voiced at large in public, other than by one "side" or the "other" who are at opposite extremes.
PS. the fun part is the donation names and comments - conversion by means of humour - and people pay for it ! ;)
Quote from: Opsanus tau on October 23, 2008, 08:23:46 PM
Good point, but that would make all adverts proslyletising. Which I suppose they are. Hmmmm.
Of the worst kind. I cannot abide video advertising and have long since killed my cable connection. BEST. DECISION. EVER.
I prefer "you are going to hell" over "you need this product" any day. :P
Talking of advertising, I made a severe mistake and left the TV on after finishing watching something which was supposed to make me fall asleep but didn't. Found I was engrossed in a lengthy "presentation" of some kind of fabulously expensive carpet cleaning system (vaccuum cleaner squirts foam) - next up a spare bed that folds itself up........ switched off before I found out the price. It wasn't a shopping channel but I assume this is the same thing. All the actors seemed to have been coached in how to make it appear they are fakng it. Found myself wondering if it was all supposed to be subliminally counter-intuitive - they can't be faking it so it must actually be true. Who (except fools like me) watches these at 3 am?
The shopping channels are a hoot sometimes though. The effort they put into selling all that horrible fake jewelery is amazing.
If I survive the shopping channels I then have to resist the Kleeneze rep who pops round with his catalogue full of dodgy gizmos. I bought a universal sink unblocker brush thingy which didn't even fit through the plug hole!
So sad to hear you haven't got a universal sink.
You're spot on with the effort. It's quite bizarre. It also has a flavour of TV advertising in the late 50's early 60's. Bit like Pathe news. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Wurlitzer appear out of nowhere.
The Atheist Bus Campaign is now at £96,660 odd.
Joan Baker article here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5003070.ece).
Quote from: Agujjim on October 24, 2008, 05:51:58 AM
Quote from: Opsanus tau on October 23, 2008, 08:23:46 PM
Good point, but that would make all adverts proslyletising. Which I suppose they are. Hmmmm.
Of the worst kind. I cannot abide video advertising and have long since killed my cable connection. BEST. DECISION. EVER.
I prefer "you are going to hell" over "you need this product" any day. :P
I, too deplore video ads. It's why I own a digital video recorder.... and I rarely watch "live" TV-- I record it instead, and watch it later, so I may zip-forward through those ads. Sure, I see bits and pieces of the video part, but the sound is mercifully silent...
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on October 22, 2008, 12:16:12 AM
Mmm... how would be a smear add against Cardinal Ratzinger? :devil2:
Do you mean Pope Nazinger? :daz:
Quote from: Opsanus tau on October 21, 2008, 09:16:39 PM
Isn't bus riding hell enough as it is?
In London? Much worse then Hell!
:)
Have I Got News For You:
[youtube=425,350]X3a0g4-gHfQ[/youtube]
And to show how open I am to reason, Christian group donates to atheist bus advertising campaign (http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=3128) is an interesting read.
I watched that on TV, brilliant...
"God moves in mysterious ways and so do bendy buses."
Isn't Frank Skinner hilarious. I fancy getting one of those stick on steering wheels for random acts of inappropriate steering.
Quote from: Black Bart on October 28, 2008, 01:15:59 PM
"God moves in mysterious ways and so do bendy buses."
Yes, that mysterious ways was inspired.
Quote
Isn't Frank Skinner hilarious. I fancy getting one of those stick on steering wheels for random acts of inappropriate steering.
Instead you have one of those stick on hats for random acts of inappropriate leering :o
No look...I have come up with a brilliant idea...I should post it on their site.
What about alternative god stamps?
Get the post office to issue a set of stamps with eg
The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Richard Dawkins
John Cleese
One of those floaty cloud things from Star Trek
etc etc
plus the message 'there probably is no god so stop worrying and enjoy your life.'
Quote from: Black Bart on October 29, 2008, 01:22:58 PM
John Cleese
I will buy it, even if I can never really use it.
Quote from: Black Bart on October 29, 2008, 01:22:58 PM
What about alternative god stamps?
Get the post office to issue a set of stamps with eg
I like it.
But..... do you have that much faith in the
Post Office Royal Mail?
You can post your idea on the site by giving £2 repeatedly until you have enough word space to complete it...... like the idiots who are using it as a discussion forum = most of whom I suspect are members of TOP.
I like Bart's idea and hope he will design some for here.
Alternative wording: "God or no God, it's out of your hands so stop worrying about it!"
:update: :update: :update:
Lookee HERE (http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/)
It's all happening....... and not just in London.
Wonder how we could get a link on their website. (in the spirit of "probably" for the Toadfish who are Believers of Whatever - like they say, the thing is to get people to THINK rather than bash each other....... hmmmm has anyone else noticed that none of us has started a Gaza thread, I keep meaning to and don't).
(http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/149-southwark.jpg)
Quote from: Griffin NoName on January 07, 2009, 06:51:23 AM
It's all happening....... and not just in London.
Apparently they're planning to copy it in Barcelona. That could be fun..
Quote
hmmmm has anyone else noticed that none of us has started a Gaza thread, I keep meaning to and don't).
Fails the dog bites man versus man bites dog newsworthyness test. Followers of Abrahamic religions beating the carp out of each other fails to score highly on the novelty front.
And it could lead to very untoadfishy rants
As bloody and sad the stuff is you can use the Boring News Channel, on that subject what else is new? :(
----
Love the pic on the bus and I'd love it more if having something like that here were possible..
:mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2: :mrgreen: :devil2:
I'd love to see some of those here in the US. That would be great fun.
Looks like the Advertising Standards Authority may have to rule on the existence of God.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7818980.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7818980.stm)
Seeing as the Humanist posters have "probably" and the Godsquad ones don't, I suspect the complainants are on to a loser.
Wasn't there a movie where Santa Claus was proven to exist because the U.S. Mail delivered letters to him?
Maybe the ASA should insist God presents himself to substantiate the claims or ban the Bible. A quick comparison with the banned Apple iPhone adverts suggests if shown on TV it could be in trouble with:
CAP (Broadcast) TV Advertising Standards Code rules
5.1 (Misleading Advertising)
5.2.1 (Evidence)
5.2.2 (Implications)
5.4.1 (Visual techniques and special effects).
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh lordy. I just sent that to all my friends.
Unfortunate thing is A) It would never ever happen because people aren't ballsey/arrogant enough to do that so publicly and B) >half the people at the ASA are more than likely religious (Christian or otherwise).
"stick that in your pope and smoke it" :D
Maybe both sides will have to avoid definitive language.
"Christianity, probably the best religion in the world".
Carlsberg got there first.
Bet this is one problem the ASA could do without. Perhaps they can pass it on to Trading Standards.
Beware of Dogma billboard in Little Rock Arkansas-- yes the grumbling and gnashing of teeth is great indeed.
http://www.ffrf.org/news/2008/littlerock_pub.php
You know I've been looking forward to seeing the London buses with the Humanist adverts on them but I haven't seen any yet...
What's the betting that three will come along at once?
Quote from: anthrobabe on January 09, 2009, 09:13:58 AM
Beware of Dogma billboard in Little Rock Arkansas-- yes the grumbling and gnashing of teeth is great indeed.
http://www.ffrf.org/news/2008/littlerock_pub.php
EPIC.
Too bad they don't have that on bumperstickers, yet! I'd be sorely tempted.
And now, atheist Thought of the Day (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4208815/Atheist-bus-leads-to-first-non-religious-version-of-Thought-for-the-Day-on-BBC.html)
Actually Dawkins did a one-off thought years ago, but probably too many bishops choked on their breakfast kedgeree for the experiment to be repeated.
Quote from: Black Bart on October 29, 2008, 01:22:58 PM
No look...I have come up with a brilliant idea...I should post it on their site.
What about alternative god stamps?
Get the post office to issue a set of stamps with eg
The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Richard Dawkins
John Cleese
One of those floaty cloud things from Star Trek
etc etc
plus the message 'there probably is no god so stop worrying and enjoy your life.'
Anymore thought about the take over of the mail service- sorry, I mean about suggestions for stamps to them?
I'd buy them-- 'specially if me brother Bart were involved.
Doesn't John Cleese already have a stamp? What's wrong with them- all Python should already have stamps.
My atheist sister pointed out that "Beware of Dogma" is available in a bumper sticker here: http://www.ffrf.org/shop/products/details.php?cat=bstickers&ID=BS7
Monty Python deserve postage stamps. I wonder if they'd mind us using their images on custom stamps (http://photo.stamps.com/Store/?source=si10985886)
Quote from: beagle on January 08, 2009, 08:54:24 PM
Looks like the Advertising Standards Authority may have to rule on the existence of God.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7818980.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7818980.stm)
QuoteIf the industry regulator decides to investigate, it could end up effectively ruling on the likelihood of God's existence.
I don't see a problem. Surely all they have to do is get in touch with Him and ask for proof He exists? Seems to me it is just a run of the mill issue for the ASA, like whether certain soap powders really do wash whiter than white.
Wouldn't that apply to churches themselves? Which one will take their customers to heaven, the Catholic? Lutheran? Orthodox? Evangelic? Or perhaps the orthodox jew? Or the chiite muslim? How would the board certify the claims of each brand?
:devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2:
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on January 13, 2009, 03:24:34 AM
Wouldn't that apply to churches themselves? Which one will take their customers to heaven, the Catholic? Lutheran? Orthodox? Evangelic? Or perhaps the orthodox jew? Or the chiite muslim? How would the board certify the claims of each brand?
:devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2: :devil2:
Yes, indeed. Let us not forget we live in modern times. The next campaign must demand brand certification !
Mind you, British Jews got a
Board (http://www.boardofdeputies.org.uk/) in 1760 - curiously they refer to Deputies rather than Apostles (and they have upped the numbers somewhat) :irony:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7832647.stm
Bus Driver refuses to drive bus.
Quote from: The Meromorph on January 16, 2009, 06:05:36 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7832647.stm
Bus Driver refuses to drive bus.
Why does this remind me of the Registry Office employee who just lost her case for refusing to conduct civil partnerships for people of identical genders?
:irony:
Quote from: The Meromorph on January 16, 2009, 06:05:36 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7832647.stm
Bus Driver refuses to drive bus.
Yet, he willingly drove buses advertising cigarettes, booze and other products that create ill health....
...can anyone say 'hypocrite"?
Good.
Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on January 17, 2009, 12:10:25 AM
Quote from: The Meromorph on January 16, 2009, 06:05:36 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7832647.stm
Bus Driver refuses to drive bus.
Yet, he willingly drove buses advertising cigarettes, booze and other products that create ill health....
...can anyone say 'hypocrite"?
Good.
I think it's lik the hypocritic oath
some doctors adhere to !! ;) ;) ;)
This sort of religious intolerance really gets me annoyed, it's just pure arrogance.
The ASA Hath pronounced (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4307344/Atheist-bus-adverts-given-green-light-by-watchdog-despite-326-complaints.html).
As hath The Vatican (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/4287979/Catholic-Church-blocks-plans-for-atheist-bus-adverts.html).
Excellent! That's the bestnews I've read all day!
As for the Article on the church, that's the most annoying article i've read all day! I know we're supposed to be tolerant, humble, etc. etc. But god [pun] I hate religion, specially the catholic church.
You can always still love the religious but hate the religion ;)
As a general rule I'm more bemused than enraged by religion, but then I've never lived anywhere where it still has a firm grip on the levers of power.
Hating the Church of England would be more like hating a Labrador puppy than a Rottweiler.
But it's not the religion its self that causes all the problems, it's the religous who take them too seriously!
It's the people who read the bible as something other than a story book to gain morales from!
Good point.
I just couldn't resist the temptation to swap the epithets in "Love the sinner and hate the sin". ;D
While we're on the subject, meet the next inhabitants (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7845031.stm) of the Craggy Island parochial house.
It puzzled me that the ASA allows religious ads that tell you about being burnt in hell by the flames of the devil and suffer eternal damnation - I realise no one can prove they won't be, but aren't there any restrictions on how scary an advert can be? Would they allow "If you eat another Big Mac, your stomach will be stapled together, and the next you do it you will explode and die." - { quite a good anti-bad-eating advert IMHO }
Haha yeah but so many people don't take "eternal damnation" Seriously.
I haven't met many christians (and believe me, I've known MANY in my shrot life) that have ACTUALLY feared hell, of course they knew it was a bad place, but I haven't met any that are genuinly scared of it...So either they don't believe fully, or they have absolutely no doubt in their mind that they're going to Heaven...If I were religious i don't think I could have that much faith..I mean...there are a lot of sins to commit without knowing!
Quote from: Gloria The Camel on January 22, 2009, 07:54:53 PM
or they have absolutely no doubt in their mind that they're going to Heaven...
In which case they haven't read the book of revelation which clearly states that only 144.000 will enter the pearly gates.
---
To be fair most Christians are less fundamentalist on their approach than the ones we hear about in the news, but even then it is common to find a "we're right, they're wrong and going to hell" attitude in a good number of people (Xtian or not).
Quote from: Gloria The Camel on January 22, 2009, 07:54:53 PM
...or they have absolutely no doubt in their mind that they're going to Heaven...If I were religious i don't think I could have that much faith..I mean...there are a lot of sins to commit without knowing!
I find this less with Catholics, but a lot of Protestants are told that all they have to do is believe in Christ to go to heaven.
Leaving aside all the fancy rhetorical stuff and figurative language, the Bible says that Hell is eternal separation from [the face of] God.
So if you're not a believer in that God, what's a little Hell? Separation from that in which one does not believe. Derrrr...
As to 144,000 or whatever... Good ol' John on the Isle of Patmos went WAY beyond smokin' the good stuff. Owlsey's best couldn't come up with the kind of hallucinations he had...
And the more translations and 'authorized versions' you deal with, the worse it gets.
Quote from: Sibling Chatty on January 24, 2009, 03:54:09 AM
Leaving aside all the fancy rhetorical stuff and figurative language, the Bible says that Hell is eternal separation from [the face of] God.
What about god's shiny backside, like what happened to Moses on the mountain top? ::) ;D
Quote from: Sibling Chatty on January 24, 2009, 03:54:09 AMAs to 144,000 or whatever... Good ol' John on the Isle of Patmos went WAY beyond smokin' the good stuff. Owlsey's best couldn't come up with the kind of hallucinations he had....
Ayuh, rumor has is it was a little scroll of blotter paper.... or perhaps Divine Methylenedioxymethamphetamine? ;)
Quote from: Gloria The Camel on January 22, 2009, 07:54:53 PM
Haha yeah but so many people don't take "eternal damnation" Seriously.
I haven't met many christians (and believe me, I've known MANY in my shrot life) that have ACTUALLY feared hell, of course they knew it was a bad place, but I haven't met any that are genuinly scared of it...So either they don't believe fully, or they have absolutely no doubt in their mind that they're going to Heaven...If I were religious i don't think I could have that much faith..I mean...there are a lot of sins to commit without knowing!
I think a worthwhile test for either theists or atheists to give themselves is as follows:
If you had absolute, concrete proof that God does/does not exist*, would you live your life any differently?
Answering 'No' suggests to me you may not be living your life right in the first place, activities of faith such as prayer or attending church notwithstanding.
*whatever is opposite of your beliefs
Quote from: Agujjim on January 24, 2009, 05:21:10 PM
If you had absolute, concrete proof that God does/does not exist*, would you live your life any differently?
Answering 'No' suggests to me you may not be living your life right in the first place, activities of faith such as prayer or attending church notwithstanding.
Doesn't that cut both ways, though? Like those criminals who repent their ways in fear of the god they now acknowledge (or those who spouse the argument that without a deity there would be chaos due to the lack of fear in him/her/it)?
Living or doing a certain thing, because of fear of punishment? That's something a small child might be expected to do.
With an adult, I would expect a superior set of behavior skills. That is, I'd expect the rules to be internalized, and followed not out of fear, but out of respect for doing the right thing.
Because it *is* the right thing.
God's presence or absence should make little or no difference to the outcome.
Someone who *only* "behaves" out of fear of reprisal is always on the look out for a loop-hole to jump through. As such, can you *really* trust them to do the right thing always?
Answer: no.