Someone I know who knows that I have done a lot of spiritual work and study and who works with the Transpersonal as I do, recently asked me "didn't I therefore believe in Divine Benevolence" to which I immediately and instinctively answered No.
I have found I keep turning this over in my mind.
I am always uneasy about any connection between religion and spirituality and the Transpersonal movement rejects Jung's preoccupation with the religious aspect. To me the word Divine seems compromised by religion - but maybe I am worng on this?
As for Benevolence, I can't see any reason to assume any power* should be either benevolent or the opposite.
This therefore raise a few question for me: does "spiritual" imply any of this?
* first define power ;)
[Puts Logical Positivist hat on]
Define Divine Benevolence and how you measure it.
[Takes Logical Positivist hat off]
I look silly in hats so I prefer glasses... :mrgreen:
To me the use of the word divine states that we are talking about something religious or something that once was religion but now are considered mythology (like Fortuna the goddess of fortune and good luck and the counterpart of Greek Tyche)
In Swedish I would instead talk about försynens godhet the benevolence of providence but I don't know if there's a better word for this in English or if is makes any sense at all directly translated like that.
It makes sense but providence implies something good so I still have a question as to whether spiritual implies providence.
As to measuring Divine Benevolence, I suggest a straw poll on folk's expectations of St Peter as they approach the gates to Heaven. ;)
Obviously this all depends upon definitions, but in my mind spirituality and divinity are entirely different things.
As you know, I have no believe in any deity, however, I feel that I have a very deep "spiritual" side, but I suspect that most people would not recognise it as such.
My spirituality comes from my sense of wonder. I contemplate the universe and our lovely planet and I get a sense of awe. That feeling that I get when I look upon a baby duckling, or I watch the dawn break over a river. To me, these are truly spiritual experiences, but they have nothing to do with anything supernatural or divine. They are entirely products of my own brain, of the sensorium that I have, the sense of the emergent character of being a human. They are beautiful nevertheless. They can be terrible too. all part of the grand tapestry.
It seems to me, that ascribing these feelings to some external force, whether divine or not, diminishes them. Sure, I can understand how some people might draw that conclusion, but it is not my way of looking at things.
I feel a connection with all the Siblings, does that mean I think we have some sort of supernatural "string" joining us? No, we have just one way or another tumbled into this little haven of sanity. That is what binds us, the freedom to be who we are. The tolerance to accept that our views are not the only views. If that is spiritual, then I am spiritual, but remember we have made this place.
Hmm, gone a nit off topic. Oh well, that too is part of my "spirituality"! ;D
Well I kept thinking "what a wonderfull thinker old Bluenose is!' as I sort of agreed (and learned) from point to point. But I also kept thinking, but everything he calls spirituality, I usually just call joy. ??? ::) :P :D
I think there might be something in that.
To me, benevolence is a human attribute. Or, if that's presumptuous, at least an attribute which necessitates consciousness in the entity exhibiting it.
While there's some ambiguity for me about definitions of the universe and its constituent particles, beings, etc as a whole or a network, or an ecosystem or such, I completely unambiguously deny that there's an individual consciousness capable of discrete traits such as benevolence over all of us.
.:Edit for spelling.:.
Just to be an arse :mrgreen: lets talk definitions:
divine: from the 18 definitions found in dictionary.com perhaps the most relevant in this case are:
- of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
- godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
- being a god; being God: a divine person.
- of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
The only way to avoid a god reference is using the last one, ie: something superhuman, or above our human standard.
Quote from: Griffin NoNameAs for Benevolence, I can't see any reason to assume any power* should be either benevolent or the opposite.
Quote from: Alpaca on June 25, 2008, 05:43:20 PM
To me, benevolence is a human attribute. Or, if that's presumptuous, at least an attribute which necessitates consciousness in the entity exhibiting it.
While there's some ambiguity for me about definitions of the universe and its constituent particles, beings, etc as a whole or a network, or an ecosystem or such, I completely unambiguously deny that there's an individual consciousness capable of discreet traits such as benevolence over all of us.
I personally agree with those points of view, in fact, the main definition suggests a 'disposition to do good', and who knows what 'good' means for a godlike/superhuman being. For all we know it could feel that we (humans) should be relieved of our misery and be
put down (or it may feed on negative emotions like in so many sci-fi tales, hence keeping us in misery is 'wholesome and good' for him :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ).
Seriously speaking, spirituality -to me- is to be understood under philosophy as a metaphysical experience (ie: the philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence). Such approach doesn't require a deity much less an organized system of belief (ie: religion). This would fit with our dearest siblings Bluenose & Mero perfectly.
Fits me, too. I think of spirituality as being about OUR spirits, not a seperate "Holy" one.
"Devine Benevolence", however, seems to indicate a something beyond our human selves.
Thanks for clarifications all of which I agree with.
Now I am wonderng how to address my understanding of spirituality with my friend where it differs from her attachment to Divine Benevolence. My impression is that she does have a belief in goodness finding it's way to "help us" so it is possibly like a sort of alternative religion for her.
I think it is simply a matter of viewpoint. To some it seems easier to rely on a Parent Figure to guide them to better deceisions that make life easier. To others, it seems preferable to think things out on their own and decide the right thing to do based on personal experience blended with wisdom learned from reliable sources.
The Parent Figure is based on wisdom from reliable sources, so in many cases there is only a fine line between spirituality and Divine Benevolence. Fundamental types might find that hard to believe.
:irony:
Quote from: Griffin NoName on June 25, 2008, 01:05:21 PM
As to measuring Divine Benevolence, I suggest a straw poll on folk's expectations of St Peter as they approach the gates to Heaven. ;)
Anti-aircraft fire, or something resembling Kenny's first trip there in South Park, Bigger, Longer and Uncut.
Besides, if it existed and was benevolent it wouldn't need gates.
Quote from: Bluenose on June 25, 2008, 02:56:32 PM
Obviously this all depends upon definitions, but in my mind spirituality and divinity are entirely different things.
As you know, I have no believe in any deity, however, I feel that I have a very deep "spiritual" side, but I suspect that most people would not recognise it as such.
My spirituality comes from my sense of wonder. I contemplate the universe and our lovely planet and I get a sense of awe. That feeling that I get when I look upon a baby duckling, or I watch the dawn break over a river. To me, these are truly spiritual experiences, but they have nothing to do with anything supernatural or divine. They are entirely products of my own brain, of the sensorium that I have, the sense of the emergent character of being a human. They are beautiful nevertheless. They can be terrible too. all part of the grand tapestry.
It seems to me, that ascribing these feelings to some external force, whether divine or not, diminishes them. Sure, I can understand how some people might draw that conclusion, but it is not my way of looking at things.
I feel a connection with all the Siblings, does that mean I think we have some sort of supernatural "string" joining us? No, we have just one way or another tumbled into this little haven of sanity. That is what binds us, the freedom to be who we are. The tolerance to accept that our views are not the only views. If that is spiritual, then I am spiritual, but remember we have made this place.
Hmm, gone a nit off topic. Oh well, that too is part of my "spirituality"! ;D
Oi be beggin' ye parrdons , yit thet wuz so wunnerfully writ oi hatta poit et up agin .
I'm a strange kind of Christian. I'm not sure that there's such a thing as "divine benevolence" on the part of a Supreme Being.
I DO believe in God, I ALSO believe that he's interested in us in a very "Oh, yeah, I was his math teacher in the 5th grade. What's he been doing the last 20 years?" kinda basis. And I believe that God WILL listen to 'intercessory prayer' AKA "putting good thoughts and energies out into the Universe"--based, of course, on the actual HONESTY of the prayers, good thoughts, energies, etc. I have more faith in the interest you guys take than I do in the 'prayer lists' of people that don't know me. (The local Methodists, the Lockhart, Texas Baptists, etc., and so on.) Why? It's a matter of HOW much do you care.. What loss would you feel at my exit from the planet? (I promise a soft-shoe shuffle, with a top hat and cane, and a joke or a song...)
Some sweet little Baptist lady in Nowheresville who has a sister that goes to First Baptist Lockhart may pray for me intently. I appreciate it. I covet every thought and prayer. (It's positive energy into "my account".) But she doesn't KNOW me, knows nothing of the things that make me "ME" and is doing her 'duty' because I'm her sister Maudine's best friend Cylestial's daughter's best friend from Howard Payne in 1973. I'm pleased that she cares, and I'm sure that God gets enough 'memos' from the Faithful every day that he's got a bunch of Recording Cherubim on overtime sorting it all out. And at the end of a day, he looks at the totals, and there's the "everybody that's sick" and the "everybody with cancer" and all the divisions, and somewhere in there is me...the "badly behaved, evil tempered person with that weird cancer that gets extremely put out with the Uber-Religious, but does fine with the normal folks".
(Normal. It's a setting on the washer.)
We're all interconnected, because we CARE about one another. There are other people out there that would literally kill to get the level of caring from other human beings that we show across the globe. Is there a 'supreme being' informing that? Probably not. If so,She/He/It's doing a damn LOUSY job of it. Hell, S/H/IT can't even keep it's "followers" under decent control, so I'm not setting it up for any "Intergalactic Efficiency Awards".
I don't believe we're alone. I DO believe that we're much less supervised, by a much more lenient Being/Spirit/Whatevaaahh that most Christians seem to think. That's sorta why I'm self identifying as a Quaker. (Chapel, not Church. There's a difference.)
Any divinity one might perceive in my area is self-inflicted, or it's this stuff.
* 4 cups granulated sugar
* 1 cup light (not dark) corn syrup
* 1 cup water
* 1/4 tsp salt
* 3 egg whites (room temperature)
* 1 cup walnuts or pecans, chopped
* 1 tsp vanilla
Preparation:
Combine sugar, corn syrup, water, and salt in heavy saucepan. Cook and stir over medium heat until mixture starts to boil. Continue cooking until mixture forms soft ball when tested in cold water (or use a themometer). In the mean time, beat egg whites until stiff. Then pour 1/2 cup of syrup over whites, beating fast all the time.
Continue to cook remaining syrup while beating egg whites, until syrup reaches the light crack stage when dropped in cold water (this will happen quickly). Pour remaining syrup over egg white mixture, beating all the while. Continue beating until candy begins to hold its shape. Stir in vanilla and nuts and food coloring. Drop by teaspoonsful onto waxed paper.
Makes 50-60 pieces.
DO NOT MAKE WHEN HUMID OR RAINY. It won't 'hold'.
Quote from: Sibling Chatty on June 26, 2008, 01:14:35 AM
DO NOT MAKE WHEN HUMID OR RAINY. It won't 'hold'.
So I'll have to wait 'till college, because this place is entirely unsuitable for the next few months.
Yep. Texas Gulf Coast, this is a Christmas treat. Otherwise, it's 'spotty' as to gettin' it made.
(It's also the best 'frosting' for a banana nut cake EVAR...!!!11!1!!)
Quote from: beagle on June 25, 2008, 08:23:52 PM
Quote from: Griffin NoName on June 25, 2008, 01:05:21 PM
As to measuring Divine Benevolence, I suggest a straw poll on folk's expectations of St Peter as they approach the gates to Heaven. ;)
<snip>... Besides, if it existed and was benevolent it wouldn't need gates.
What's the provenance for those gates anyway?
Quote from: Sibling Chatty
.............. I'm sure that God gets enough 'memos' from the Faithful every day that he's got a bunch of Recording Cherubim on overtime sorting it all out.
If He is anything like Gordon Browne, expect a
phone call (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/30/gordonbrown) early morning.
All these wonderful thoughts, and the only thing that prompted me to comment was Chatty's [accidental?] acronym:
S/H/IT
She-He-IT.
Lovely, isn't it?
The depth and dimensions of possible puns in that little word alone has me giggling like a little kid.
Okay, so tonight, I'm about as deep as the film of water on a windshield on a frosty morning....
.... or, perhaps as deep as Bevis and/or Butthead....
;D
So? I take 'funny' when and wherever I can get it....!
Life's simply too short to skip or miss out on any 'funny' opportunity.
(maybe I'll comment on the actual topic later, after I've contemplated a bit....still giggling...)
Quote from: Sibling Chatty on June 26, 2008, 01:14:35 AMI promise a soft-shoe shuffle, with a top hat and cane, and a joke or a song...
I'm holding you to that. I'd settle for a pun, if it's a REALLY good one, but a funny song with puns in it would be best. ;)
Acknowledging my WIDE definitions of divinity, god and all... that life exists is divine. That it continues is benevolence enough. As a science-minded person, I identify with chemistry most closely, and life is a beautiful self-propagating chemical reaction.
Otherwise I think I am very similar to Bluenose in my sense of spirituality, although I won't necessarily discount the role of an external force somewhere in our capacity to find, recognize and create spiritual experiences (don't need one either, but I don't feel that involving one diminishes the experience; neither does analyzing the physiological processes involved in such experiences). Coincidences can be beautiful and spiritual, even when they are completely coincidental; building on coincidences or even orchestrating them can be equally beautiful. I believe we all have the potential for divinity in at least a small way, and if we all made an effort to be more benevolent, we'd see more divinity in the world (Autotheist background, eh? Some folks prefer to draw on divinity to explain the experience of benevolence; I'd rather use benevolence to create the experience of divinity. Malevolence is certainly the easiest way to create the illusion of evil, why not flip the concept?).
Mero, I tend to find spirituality in joy. Joy to me seems less obviously connected to the physical compared to most emotions (anger, sadness, contentment, frustration, others?) hence it's more 'spirit' based. That's my experience, anyways. ;)
Bluenose described my POV on spirituality better than I could do my self, thank you!
Chatty: :D :kisshands:
I started out suspecting the ability to be able to believe in divine benevolence, as defined here, stems from the fact that for most Westerners, most of the time, the World is relatively stable. By that I mean free of earthquakes, typhoons, floods, hunger or serious disease.
Consequently it's possible for some to sustain the point of view that we're being looked after, rather than just a moderately advanced organism surviving in a niche accidentally provided by nature. Where those stable conditions don't pertain I suspect it's more likely that communities will create deities in a more capricious image; the kind that require someone to be lobbed into the volcano once a year to keep them on side.
I'm not sure that "divine benevolence" as an artefact of medium term stability is an entirely satisfactory explanation though. It might be that where conditions are particularly bad there's a psychological drive to impose a benign rationality in order to cope.
For what it's worth I suggest Griffin talks to her friend about the weather instead.
Mero, joy is definitely what I am talking about. It has taken me a long time to consider that this feeling I am describing is what I believe other people call their spiritual side. I have used here before Carl Sagan's concept of a sense of the numinous. That is definitely what I feel when I think about things deeply. The incredible majesty of the universe is the greatest thing that induces that feeling in me and I feel that trying to put a human face on it, that which I believe many people call god, is a way of making it understandable to limited human perception, but IMHO in doing so this view actually limits our perception of reality.
Of course, I understand that I derive this POV from a basic premise that there is no cause to the universe. Other people have the opposite view. I just know that for me, in the depths of my being, there is an insatiable and inquisitive child that just wants to ask questions, that strives to know the answer to everything. That child looks at the stars and tries to imagine just how far away they are and then to consider how far away the things that he cannot see must be and how long ago they are. I like to lay on the ground at night and imagine I can feel the Earth rotating under me. Of course, I cannot, but it is only a little conceit that I can.
It also gives me joy to learn that my Siblings can relate to my odd little way of seeing things. For so much of my life I have been an outsider. Sure, I am able to make friends easily and I am not trying to paint myself as some sort of lost soul. I have a great family, wonderful kids that I am very proud of. I have led and am still leading a very full life. It is just that finding the TFM has been such a gift. Here is somewhere that I can say what I really think and find that others take me seriously. Sure we do not agree on everything, but if we did, where would be the fun in discussing things? No, the thing is people here accept that I have a valid POV. Some even agree with some of my funny ideas. Do you have any idea how unusual that is? The idea of a non-supernatural or divine spirituality probably seems ridiculous to most people. In my experience most people simply do not want to think about things in any great depth. Yet here I find people saying that I have said something that expresses some of their own feelings. Wonderful. It gives me a sense of the numinous all on its own.
I know I am gushing, but too bad. I love you guys.
Bluenose,
Oh man, you talk about yourself, and I could swear you're talking about me. :selfhug: :glomp:
Sometimes, I just sit and look at a tree, and it just glows with an invisible inner light.
And the Friday Cephalopods...
And have you seen that video of an octopus with a body two feet across getting through a one inch circular hole?
It doesn't bother me when other people have a different idea of how or why. I know I'm right. I know they're right. too.
FWIW, the fact that I agree with you 100% just adds another joy to the world... Just? JUST? :woot: :thankyou:
:grouphug: ;D
---
Quote from: beagle on June 26, 2008, 12:41:37 PM
I started out suspecting the ability to be able to believe in divine benevolence, as defined here, stems from the fact that for most Westerners, most of the time, the World is relatively stable.
Interestingly enough I was talking to my sister (who has decided to travel as much as she can) and she suggested that agnosticism and atheism are easier in the 1st world than the 3rd precisely because of that stability (and safety) you mention. She reminded me the constant fear of being robbed, mugged and in the worst cases killed because the justice system is inoperative or absent. In such cases people find themselves literally praying to be spared.
IMO that fear hypothesis (which was also mentioned in Bowling for Columbine) explains quite a bit about the American psyche regarding god & guns.
Quote from: Bluenose on June 26, 2008, 02:39:48 PM
The idea of a non-supernatural or divine spirituality probably seems ridiculous to most people.
Nail on the head. This is what I want to address with my friend. That I can hold a spiritual approach to life without believing in divine benevolence.
Beagle, the weather strikes me as a dangerous topic. What about all the rain we get here as a direct result of all those people doing rain dances in drought areas?
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on June 26, 2008, 06:19:09 PM
Interestingly enough I was talking to my sister (who has decided to travel as much as she can) and she suggested that agnosticism and atheism are easier in the 1st world than the 3rd precisely because of that stability (and safety) you mention.
I wonder if anthropologists have ever attempted a worldwide correlation between social conditions and the benevolence of local deities. Probably the big religions wiped out most local variations long before anthropology was invented.
I can only think of The Golden Bough, but I'm not sure how well that has worn in anthropology circles. The sort of thing Swato or Pieces might well know...
Also, it wouldn't be in the interests of the local shamen to say, "Actually God's pretty cool about most things." Just look what it's done to the Church of England.
Quote from: Griffin NoName on June 26, 2008, 08:10:28 PM
Quote from: Bluenose on June 26, 2008, 02:39:48 PM
The idea of a non-supernatural or divine spirituality probably seems ridiculous to most people.
Nail on the head. This is what I want to address with my friend. That I can hold a spiritual approach to life without believing in divine benevolence.
(S)he might accuse you of adopting a pick & mix approach if religion is the basis of her view. There's a tendency to believe it's an all or nothing package. Have your defence ready.
Quote from: Griffin
Beagle, the weather strikes me as a dangerous topic. What about all the rain we get here as a direct result of all those people doing rain dances in drought areas?
Cricket?