When I start a book, I generally strive to finish it (unless the library won't let me renew ;)) come hell or high water. I hate putting even a bad book* down, wondering if it will all come together in the last half / quarter / whatever, and because it feels like failure. Here's a thread to help each other figure out if that bad book is worth the slog, or if it's truly time to give up.
First victim:
Jeff in Venice, Death in Varanasi by
Geoff DyerI picked this up on positive reviews in the Economist; the paperback is strewn with praise for the author's writing in general, how funny the book is, yadda yadda yadda (such as 'Quite possibly the best living writer in Britain', 'his prose is the equal of anyone in the country. A national treasure').
Really, it's not a bad book. But I am finding it horribly dull and really am not getting much enjoyment from it. The book is set half in Venice and half in Varanasi (India); I slogged through the Venice bit and am in the first few dozen pages of the latter, but it doesn't seem to be picking up.
The following passage (by the narrator) stopped me in my tracks, because it seemed like overt permission to end this torture:
QuoteAfter a fling with Gabriel Garcia Marquez, I'd come to detest even a hint of magic realism in fiction. As soon as I came to a passage in a novel where the the trees started talking to each other, I gave it up on the spot.
I should also note that I picked up a book of short essays/stories (semi-fictional, I think) by Jeff Dyer at the same time, and started on it first (Yoga for People Who Can't be Bothered), and didn't find it too bad for what it was; his writing works well enough for this format. I may finish that book even after dumping the novel, as it at least can be digested in small pieces. I suspect his non-fiction work might be well worth a read, but he seems to carry the exact same tone of writing in his novel, leaving it dull and lifeless.
Permission to flush? :P
If anyone has anything to say in defence of this book or author as a novelist, please speak now!
For the record, and despite his relatively short novel-writing career, I'd like to offer Alex Garland as an alternative British writer who is capable both of writing INTERESTING travelogues that make you want to see the places he's describing and of achieving what Hunter S. Thompson said F. Scott Fitzgerald called the "high white note" - aesthetically beautiful passages of writing that stop you in your tracks just by the way they are written, regardless of the subject. Not the case with Mr. Dyer, admittedly based on a couple of hundred pages.
*
especially novels; if a non-fiction book is crap from the start it usually stays that way, and I don't feel bad about dropping a NF if I already am very familiar with the facts presented.
So, the guy didn't like García Márquez? That's enough to ban the author from my wife's list...
:D :D :D
--
Seriously, some books take time to get into, for instance it took me a while to get into The Island of the Day Before, from Eco, but I came to like it at the end, even classics like the Magic Mountain may be difficult to digest at times, but certain books are simply not made to be read by certain people, either by style or content. If you feel the book sucks, why bother? You could be reading something else.
Ayuh, especially with constraints on my reading time (beyond digesting an Economist during elimination over the course of a week, I don't have much time to read these days, and the Economist has snappier writing than this lump). I just hate giving up on any book halfway through and missing the payoff. Although I'm pretty sure the author already blatantly foreshadowed the 'Death' bit from the title, so I'm not likely to miss much. :P
Also, one wonders what one is missing when an author gets a surfeit of favourable reviews but seems dull - or is this just indicative that it's appealing to a certain segment of (mostly British) reviewers? ;)
The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp also has Death in the title but (SPOILER ALERT ;)) no Colonel Blimp dies in the film and no character of that name even shows up during the about 3 hours running time.
---
In the case of Eco one has also to account for the quality of translations. The English translation of The Name of the Rose is said to be terrible while the German one is considered perfect.
I enjoyed the English translation of Mane of the Rose ----- but then I haven't read the German one.
A friend advised me not to start reading Hilary Mantel with her winning Wolfe Hall but begin with her Beyond Black. I am really struggling with it. It's hard to abandon it though, since a friend reccomended it.
Quote from: Swatopluk on January 10, 2010, 08:49:36 AM
In the case of Eco one has also to account for the quality of translations. The English translation of The Name of the Rose is said to be terrible while the German one is considered perfect.
I should read him in Italian but, have you seen his writing? I can barely talk in Italian... So far I've read him in Spanish (and the translations are mostly fine) and once in English (The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana) and it wasn't that bad either. The Island is written in an semi archaic Italian, and the translator to Spanish used the style of the golden age, so that may account for the difficulty.
Quote from: Agujjim on January 10, 2010, 02:51:03 AM
The following passage (by the narrator) stopped me in my tracks, because it seemed like overt permission to end this torture:
QuoteAfter a fling with Gabriel Garcia Marquez, I'd come to detest even a hint of magic realism in fiction. As soon as I came to a passage in a novel where the the trees started talking to each other, I gave it up on the spot.
I gave up on a Hundred years of Tedium (I think, though not much has stuck in my memory) at the point where someone, or someone's brother, grew a tail.
Never heard of Geoff Dyer.
My judgement is not to be trusted though. I thought Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity" was the most boring book ever, in contrast to the rest of the World.
Quote from: beagle on January 10, 2010, 06:50:23 PM
My judgement is not to be trusted though. I thought Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity" was the most boring book ever, in contrast to the rest of the World.
I've not read Hornby, but I found F. Scott Fitzgerald (
The Great Gatsby) beyond tedious. Only to be eclipsed by Tolstoy's
Anna Karenna as some of the worst tedious dreck I've been forced to slog through.
On the other hand, I found
One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn enlightening. But it was short, and to the point. And I still, 30 years later, have some vivid imagery from the book.
Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on January 10, 2010, 06:56:32 PM
but I found F. Scott Fitzgerald (The Great Gatsby) beyond tedious. Only to be eclipsed by Tolstoy's Anna Karenna as some of the worst tedious dreck I've been forced to slog through.
Disagree. Marvellous.
Quote from: Swatopluk on January 10, 2010, 08:49:36 AM
In the case of Eco one has also to account for the quality of translations. The English translation of The Name of the Rose is said to be terrible while the German one is considered perfect.
Interesting.
Kafka didn't really click for me until I read some of his works in their original german. After that, I loved his writings (and I agree with Salman Rushdie on one thing: Kafka is a great humourist!). I did once have a look at das Schloss /the Castle in english translation, and more or less thought that they had lost the plot completely.
The Great Gatsby was, imo, awful. Liked A Hundred Years of Solitude, though. The imagery really struck me.
Unless I absolutely have to read it, I put a sucky book down. I put down Gone with the Wind because Scarlet made me want to kill her. If it sucks, Aggie, put it down. You can always read the last five pages of it, right?
Actually, I did... and browsed much of the remainder briefly. It does seem to get better, I think, but not to the point of redemption. And makes me pine even more for The Beach, despite having fairly little in common. Wrong on the foreshadowing, too, I think.
The real reason I may finish it? I'm stuck up north for longer than expected, an appreciable part of my day is spend sitting in a truck doing SFA, and that's the only available reading material, short of buying something off the shelf at Wallyworld or the like. Got sent out on a Monday so I don't even have my trusty Economist, which I get on Tuesday, handy! :P
In case of Gone with the Wind I have to admit of only having seen the movie (despite the book being in possession of our family).
Anna Karenina I know partially because of it being read sequentially on the radio.
My knowledge of Gogol is a good deal better (but he did not write tomes of 1000+ pages).
My bookshelves contain numerous partially read books (most of them nonfiction though) but they usually get finished in the end (although that can be years).
I do books as other people do TV: channel hopping
Quote from: Scriblerus the Philosophe on January 11, 2010, 04:02:42 AM
The Great Gatsby was, imo, awful.
Perhaps only the english like this book?
Any of you familiar with 'Lillith' by George MacDonald?
I've just read this Victorian Christian Fantasy novel, and I am stunned...
The book's basic premise is completely Christian, and couldn't be further from my own beliefs, but it is a superb apologia for christian mythology.
The writer was apparently an acknowledged inspiration for W.H. Auden, C.S. Lewis, C.K. Chesterton and J.R.R. Tolkien among others.
It is lyrical and enchanting. The writing style is definitely a product of its times (1800's) but yet vaults above its contemporaries.
It is available cheaply from Amazon, and the digital version is free from the Kindle Store, or Feedbooks.com
I completely commend it to your attention..
Quote from: The Meromorph on January 11, 2010, 07:47:40 PM
Any of you familiar with 'Lillith' by George MacDonald?
I've just read this Victorian Christian Fantasy novel, and I am stunned...
The book's basic premise is completely Christian, and couldn't be further from my own beliefs, but it is a superb apologia for christian mythology.
The writer was apparently an acknowledged inspiration for W.H. Auden, C.S. Lewis, C.K. Chesterton and J.R.R. Tolkien among others.
It is lyrical and enchanting. The writing style is definitely a product of its times (1800's) but yet vaults above its contemporaries.
It is available cheaply from Amazon, and the digital version is free from the Kindle Store, or Feedbooks.com
I completely commend it to your attention..
Requested. The print version is free (temporarily) from my local library. ;)
Horrible confession to make: I don't own a proper bookshelf. I own books, but most are in boxes. I have, particularly when younger, received many books as holiday gifts, but have never really bought books for myself, unless the are a regular reference (e.g. Diet for a Poisoned Planet) or if I've checked them out from the library and read them completely at least three times. Fortunately, if I ever get an e-book reader, the library provides those as well, although you do have to 'return' them.
Do you have an empty wall? A good friend and his wife in Paris took a number of wooden wine boxes and transform them in CD shelves covering all the wall of their dining/living room. I'd considered using shelves on a wall too but I have faced some opposition to the idea from my wife... :-X
Same problem. ;)
Mostly I refuse to spend $300 on a bookcase from Ikea (and who knows how much from anywhere else). I do have shelves, but they are covered with plants and in any case not really suitable for books (no backstops, semi-open sides). I don't really have a free wall available except in the bedroom.
If I had enough wine to have access to boxes, I wouldn't be concerned about reading. ;) :wine:
Oh, probably finishing the book. This is exactly what I fear - the last half is better. It's still not great, but I would have taken a much greater shine to the story and lead character if I had read the second half first.
We used to use bricks and planks for bookshelves. Classic student approach.
Well, I'll try it when I get back to school. ;)
(should note that at least one shoe rack is that style, but it's hidden in a walk-in closet; public display would not be acceptable)
Quote from: Griffin NoName on January 13, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
We used to use bricks and planks for bookshelves. Classic student approach.
So did we. It can be very attractive, especially with the larger books. It looks a bit manky with paperbacks.
The word turgid was invented for the specific purpose of describing Henry Jame's book A Turn of the Screw. I was ready to kill myself by the time I had finished it - the alternative, of killing Henry James, having been made redundant by he predecease, was alas not available.
Quote from: Bluenose on January 22, 2010, 06:52:41 AM
The word turgid was invented for the specific purpose of describing Henry Jame's book A Turn of the Screw. I was ready to kill myself by the time I had finished it - the alternative, of killing Henry James, having been made redundant by he predecease, was alas not available.
Call Herbert West, Reanimator or any indecent voodoo master, if you want to take personal revenge on a deceased person.
If neither is available, there is always the precedent of the Cadaver Synod.
Quote from: DavidH on January 21, 2010, 10:06:48 PM
Quote from: Griffin NoName on January 13, 2010, 07:35:07 PM
We used to use bricks and planks for bookshelves. Classic student approach.
So did we. It can be very attractive, especially with the larger books. It looks a bit manky with paperbacks.
Gotta use the right size bricks, and the right size planks.... :mrgreen:
Bricks just large enough for the height of the paperback-- sometimes, two bricks glued or bolted together at each end, standing
on end. Of course, the whole thing's not nearly as stable as cinderblocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinder_block)...
That's where you string wire from shelf-to-shelf, through holes-in [the planks], twisting tight at each layer. Wedging a single brick in the middle of a long span helps keep those thinner boards from bowing too much. Wire wrapped around the outside works here, and at the ends, if you don't want to pierce your boards/planks.
Of course, you can go with rope instead of wire, for a more rustic look. At the bottom plank, instead of just laying it on the floor, a pair of bricks, laid flat at each end provides room for the rope to pass 'round the bottom shelf [between the bricks], without de-stabilizing the whole. A single brick, flat, in the center, but offset from the rope/wire, keeps the center in trim. Finally? Take the ends of the wire/rope left at the top, and attach them to the wall, to keep the whole from falling away into the room.
Like a stack of..... well, bricks.....
:)
00000000000000000000000000000000000
And, years later, when you move, your friends will wonder why you got so frikkin' many bricks lying about...
:ROFL:
As Herbert finished the last of his preparations for the re-animation of the corpse before him, he felt a slight tingle of glee. In good shape was the body, with excellent preservation. How could his plan not work? Slowly and surely, he made his move...
As an Englishman, I must concur that The Great Gatsby was very enjoyable to read. I have no idea why more of the English than the US residents here seem to enjoy it. It must be a cultural thing.
There have been few books that i've had to put down partway through. These have been Weaveworld by Clive Barker, Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon, Catch 22 by Joseph Heller, and The Vampire Armand by Anne Rice. Considering that I once managed just over 120 books in one 15 month period (I was going for a personal best), and my usual rate of book consumption is somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 this amount, that's not bad going. I finished most of the above books, though. Weaveworld I absolutely adored once i'd read it fully, but couldn't get on with it at first. I don't know why, as I love Clive Barker's books, usually. To anyone who's read Gravity's Rainbow, i'm sure you understand why I felt I had to stop. Most bizarre book i've ever read, I think (I believe headf*** is the correct term here). Catch 22 is a different matter. I've loved the film ever since I first saw it back in my very early teens, so the book should have hooked me from the onset. I'm so glad I did finish it. The only one I didn't finish is The Vampire Armand. I loved the previous books in the series, but I think this came during her born again period, and it really sucked because of that. I may come back to it some day, but not for a while.
I hate not finishing books, as you never know what's in store for you. There may be something interesting later on that gives what you've read purpose beyond that which you've been able to ascertain. Or it may actually turn out to be a total pile of crap. Either way, it's a choice you make.
I have to finish books. Catch 22, the novel, had me rolling around in hysterics.
I loved Catch 22 as well-- it was a lovely treatise on the twists of human behavior.
I'm like you, Ronald, I like to finish a book once started. But some just are not worth it. Anne Rice's horrid drek (my opinion), I never could get past the first, Interview with a Vampire. Gulliver's Travels, I started, read 3/4 of the way, and put it down never to return. I suspect that me being unaware of the politics it was mimicking, is what made it unreadable for me.
There were a few others-- Tolkin's Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring had be bogged down in it's endless pages of nonsensical poetry. Years and years, I would put it down, to pick it up and try again. I finally did slog past the endless boring parts, and then eventually managed to read the rest, and the next two books as well (this time, skipping/skimming the poetry--whole chapters simply ignored as unreadable). It was really odd, as I totally enjoyed The Hobbit, having read it first. I've never had the slightest interest in returning to those, either-- but I have a really good BBC production of a play of all three books, some 9 CD's worth of audio. I've listened to those many times (now on MP3, naturally).
I read for escape, for a really good story, to get away from myself a bit. If the ponderous prose keeps getting in the way of that? I'm likely as not, to simply skip it as not worth the bother.
Catch 22 pretty much encompassed the gamut of human foibles. Well worth a read.
Gulliver's Travels I loved too. If you keep up with a little politics, as i'm sure you do, you can see that things haven't really changed much since then, not that much. It was fun trying to pin the attitudes of the people on current political parties. :D
The poetry is one of the things I love when reading the Rings trilogy. I must have read that book around 12 times now, and it has never bored me. The language he uses is beautiful, if a little odd at times, but then what do you expect from a linguist? The Hobbit is a very different kind of book, and much easier to get into, in my opinion, especially as it was written for a slightly younger audience. I've also listened to the radio play of it (LotR), and it was very good. Must get that on something more up-to-date than cassette, lol.
My copy is all on CD, but I have long since ripped it to MP3 format.
I did it twice-- first, letting the automatic engine work it's magic-- but, alas, the play is pretty much a continuous recording, no gaps, and the creators of the CD set broke it up into 2 minute intervals...!
And most players cannot do gapless playback, so....
... back to the ripping process. I had me a careful look at the table of contents-- and what'd'ya know? The chapters have time-intervals neatly printed in there... and my ripping software lets me arbitrarily rip segments of time from the CD.
So the second go-round (9 discs... did I mention it was on 9 discs? It was... ::) ) that is how I ripped it-- by chapter. And naming of the MP3 files became dirt-simple too, just use the chapter's title...
... anyway, I still re-listen to that now and again.
I don't care for language just for it's own self-- if the language keeps getting in the way of the story? I think the author has failed in his task. LOR was like that-- I kept slamming my head against the flowery language. Why I despised The Great Gatsby too, I suppose. And Anna Karenna. Yes, I had to slog through that in High School-- I knew I was in trouble, when I was on page 150 or so, and still in Scene 1....! This, on a tightly-printed paperback....
... "great" literature seldom is, IMO. If you have to have a PhD in language to just get past the first part? Then it may be "lofty" or "elitist" or even ivory-tower-esque... but I do not agree that it's "great".
But, I suppose I'm one of those egalitarians: I think the opinion of my local plumber, as to what is good literature is just as valid as the local PhD in English Lit. Perhaps more so, as the plumber has to make a real living...
... ::)
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Love Lord of the Rings. But could never get into his other saga The Silmarillion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion). Couldn't understand a word of it.
That one is highly condensed anyway. To 'get' it, you'll have to read the full 12 volume (iirc) History of Middle Earth compiled by JRR's son Christopher. It's worth the effort (imo).
It's also fascinating to learn how different LOTR turned out from the original plans. E.g. Aragorn was a hobbit up to the Falls of Rauros and in one draft Frodo and Sam escape from Minas Morgul because Sam is mistaken for the Lord of the Nazgul(!).
The Silmarillion was a little heavy going when I first read it at 14, but subsequent reading has made it far easier to understand. Not touched The History of Middle Earth yet. It will be time to finally get around to it soon. Swato, there was a lot that he ended up changing, which is why there are a few inconsistencies thereabouts.
Quote from: Roland Deschain on March 25, 2012, 06:45:13 AMAs an Englishman, I must concur that The Great Gatsby was very enjoyable to read. I have no idea why more of the English than the US residents here seem to enjoy it. It must be a cultural thing.
. . .
There have been few books that i've had to put down partway through. These have been Weaveworld by Clive Barker, ... Weaveworld I absolutely adored once i'd read it fully, but couldn't get on with it at first. I don't know why, as I love Clive Barker's books, usually. To anyone who's read Gravity's Rainbow, i'm sure you understand why I felt I had to stop. Most bizarre book i've ever read, I think (I believe headf*** is the correct term here).
I have a 4-volume F. Scott set; his writing is not difficult but perhaps
Gatsby describes a lifestyle too far removed from the US norm at this point to appeal to a wider audience.
I went through a Clive Barker stage; I liked
Weaveworld, but don't remember finishing
Imajica. For some reason it just irritated the hell out of me and I had to give up on it. Maybe enough time has gone by to give it another shot...
Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on March 25, 2012, 05:33:33 PM
There were a few others-- Tolkin's Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring had be bogged down in it's endless pages of nonsensical poetry. Years and years, I would put it down, to pick it up and try again. I finally did slog past the endless boring parts, and then eventually managed to read the rest, and the next two books as well (this time, skipping/skimming the poetry--whole chapters simply ignored as unreadable).
OMG! I have to agree with you here, Bob! I love language and poetry and I
should have enjoyed both in his massive tomes...but, sadly, no. I remember describing it with a somewhat crazed expression,
[facial and vocal] ranting about how he slogged you every effing step of the way to Mordor --
IN REAL TIME -- replete with 12-verse epic songs dropped randomly throughout the text, for no apparent reason,
[or perhaps due to daily immersion in interminable hymns in Chapel from his CoE-sponsored schooling?] followed by their translation into Elvish, then into Dwarvish, then into the
other Elvish, into
oh god make it stooooooop... Otherwise I quite enjoyed the story and kept the books. (I've noted elsewhere that it is a federal law in the US for college students to read all of Tolkein and all of Herbert, among others. But when I saw
The Silmarillion...Quote from: Griffin NoName on March 25, 2012, 10:13:21 PM
Love Lord of the Rings. But could never get into his other saga The Silmarillion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion). Couldn't understand a word of it.
...my eyes glazed over and I experienced something akin to PTSD.
I refused to touch it.
I love Frank Herbert's
Dune series, but I have similarly refused to have anything to do with the series beyond
Chapterhouse Dune. One really needs to know when to say when, sometimes, even where one loves... ;)
And in that vein, I will probably never finish Umberto Eco's
Island of the Day Before despite being quite fond of his other works. Like
Imajica, it just irritates the hell out of me, even though it goes against the grain to let a first edition languish, for years, that way. Likewise, I had really enjoyed every foray into history by Sharon Kay Penman until about 100 pages into
When Christ and His Saints Slept . That period interests me, but I just cannot progress.
Have any of the rest of you read Sharon Shinn? I really enjoyed her
Samaria series; such an entertaining scifi rework of the myths we've inherited from the 'Holy Land'.
Quote from: Roland Deschain on March 25, 2012, 11:16:53 PM
It will be time to finally get around to it soon. Swato, there was a lot that he ended up changing, which is why there are a few inconsistencies thereabouts.
He even gets self-referential about that. In LOTR Bilbo admits that the published version of The Hobbit differs from the reality of LOTR. Originally Gollum simply kept his promise and led Bilbo to the exit because the ring that was his original bet in the riddle contest was lost. He did not suspect Bilbo of being a thief. Tolkien changed it to the LOTR version in later editions of The Hobbit and made the original a lie Bilbo told to make his possession of the ring look less legally/morally dubious.
I personally think it was a major improvement storywise independent of LOTR.
I had mixed feelings about Tolkiens insertion of full length poems. A lot of them I liked very much, others I did not 'get' at the time. The Eärendil poem Bilbo recites at Rivendell was one of those. What the standard reader of LOTR does not know is that this one is another in-joke. In-story it is Bilbo reworking a (nonsense) Hobbit poem, in reality it was a nonsense poem Tolkien wrote many years earlier and that may be connected to the famous Major-General song by Gilbert&Sullivan (link unproven). Btw, Tom Bombadil also originated from poems independent of Middle Earth. Tolkien made them for his children who owned a toy puppet of that name and appearance.
I guess I was "ruined" by reading acutal, really-good story tellers-- strip out the unneeded, flowery language, and get right at the actual tale-to-be told.
In my childhood, I grew up reading Bradbury, McCaffery, Norton, Heinlein, White, Wells and a myriad of other stories written for the "juvenile" market, and peddled to Jr High libraries. Later on, I discovered the "adult" books written by many of these childhood authors. These I devoured at a greater-than-a-book-a-week rate. I soon exhausted all the supply in my Jr High library, and turned to the city's resources-- which was even more scant in the Juvie section-- but I went through it anyway. Couple this with spending allowance on paperbacks too-- especially those el-cheapo subsidized reading programs, where you could get 10 books for a dollar sometimes. I always got the max allowed--- which always amazed my friends, who had to be coerced to buy even one, at a quarter. One they probably would not read anyway-- I was mystified, but not devious enough to offer to use their subsidized allotment and purchase more for myself.... oh the missed opportunities.
I remember one year, 4th or 5th grade it was, and I had easily finished all the books I'd received by the 2nd week, and was complaining I had nothing to read. My mother said, "why don't you read some of those books you just got?" My reply, "I already finished all of them" always astonished her, "what? Already?" She read, but not like I did back then.
Reading took me away from myself, away from being a painfully shy, skinny little kid who was often the joke of the sports activities-- in books? I could be anyone. *sigh*
These days, I don't read nearly as much as I did back then. I suppose I'm more comfortable in my own skin now, than I was then. And there are other things to do, these days, like.... write on obscure forums about how I used to read as a little kid....
:D
Anyway, I find I simply cannot be bothered to slog through a book that is written in a ponderous style-- if the writing style keeps getting in the way of the actual story? I find all too often, the story is weak anyway, and not worth the bother. So I just skip'em-- life's too short to slog through someone's pompous efforts, to get at a story that wasn't worth the bother anyhow.
My pet peeve is that "Great Literature" seldom is--- except to self-styled "literature experts" who say it's great, just because they were taught that it was.... really great literature needs no spokes-weenie to promote it-- it promotes itself, just by being itself, and no explanation is needed.
But that's just me, in my own brand of self-styled pomposity, I've no doubt. ;D :o
Quote from: Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith on March 26, 2012, 02:47:46 PM
........ really great literature needs no spokes-weenie to promote it-- it promotes itself, just by being itself, .....
and winning the
Man Booker Prize (http://www.themanbookerprize.com/)
sorry, UK and Ireland only
The Silmarillion is very hard at the beginning but it gets easier to read once you past the first chapters.
The Island of the Day Before is perhaps one of the slower ones, more considering that the translators try to replicate the Italian of the XVI-XVII centuries, still Baudolino and The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana are on the slow side compared with The Name of the Rose, Foucault's Pendulum and lately The Cemetery in Prague (highly recommended BTW).
--
I confess that I started The Magic Mountain a couple of times but I haven't had the patience to finish it...
Quote from: Sibling Zono (anon1mat0) on March 29, 2012, 06:20:55 PM
I confess that I started The Magic Mountain a couple of times but I haven't had the patience to finish it...
If you have to read Mann then go for Heinrich not Thomas!
But I love the almost realtime element of LotR, and the poems as well. Maybe i'm one of the odd ones out here, but I loved it all. PoN, we need words on your views on Tolkein and Herbert! :o ;)
Bradbury, Heinlein, and Wells are great authors, but i've never taken the plunge with McCaffrey, Norton, and White. One of my most treasured books is a first edition of The Time Machine (UK edition), which has been read many times.
I cut my WW2 stories on Robb White's several novels of heroism during that conflict.
Likely his most famous was Torpedo Run or perhaps Up Periscope. I've read most of his WW2 stuff, but quit reading his books when I moved to a different school, and the library didn't have any of his books.
I first read Torpedo Run, as a $0.20 Weekly Reader novel, way, way back in grade school. I'd re-read it again, if it was on a legitimate Ebook. Alas, long out of print.
There's another Jr High author, but I cannot remember how to spell his odd name, Kikkigard? Junior-something. He mostly wrote fictional stories about human-animal interaction, typically in a frontier/western setting (only without all the shooting of Hollywood westerns). His best was a fictional telling of the discovery of fire, and other primitive tools by a hypothetical fictional hunter-gatherer. It was re-written and re-released about 20 years ago under a modified title, but I have forgotten that, too.
*sigh*
Quote from: Roland Deschain on March 31, 2012, 03:34:44 PM
But I love the almost realtime element of LotR, and the poems as well. Maybe i'm one of the odd ones out here, but I loved it all. PoN, we need words on your views on Tolkein and Herbert! :o ;)
How 'bout these words? ;)
[youtube=425,350]l1YmS_VDvMY[/youtube]
As for Herbert, I loved the
Dune series. I just reached the point of, "If you love something, set it fremen. If it comes back to be read again, that's great. If someone else goes all new testament with endless additional epistles, it's not yours to worry about."
Of course, I did make it through the *entire* Anne Rice vampire and witch canons, so I know a little about about pursuing lost literary causes just on principle...
:D
Quote from: pieces o nine on April 01, 2012, 11:08:57 PM
As for Herbert, I loved the Dune series. I just reached the point of, "If you love something, set it fremen. If it comes back to be read again, that's great. If someone else goes all new testament with endless additional epistles, it's not yours to worry about."
Of course, I did make it through the *entire* Anne Rice vampire and witch canons, so I know a little about about pursuing lost literary causes just on principle...
:D
Fair enough. At least you tried. I like the prequels written by his son, Brian, and Kevin J Anderson (a good author in his own right!).
You really are a glutton for punishment, persevering through her "god" stage. :o
Actually, I stopped when she returned to the bosom of Mother Church.
Although, as one wag put it: What's the big deal? She used to write about a guy who wants to drink your blood. Now she writes about a guy who wants *you* to drink *his* blood. It's still kinda the same theme for her.
;)
Childhood favorites: Lloyd Alexander and John Christopher.
While we are on the topic of church and magic, I am looking for easily available literature/info on the Norwegian witch trials in the late 16th and esp. 17th century. Unfortunately most texts that I find infos about on the net seem to be only available in print and not in any library I have access to. And to get special books from Norway without going there is not easy either.
Stuff like this: Female Witches and Sami Sorcerers in the Witch Trials of Arctic Norway (1593-1695) by Rune Blix Hagen
which would have the advantage of being in a language I am fluent in. I can deal with Norwegian if need be.
Swato, do you still have a log-in for TOP?
There's a member presenting (seriously) as a Sami shaman who might be a resource for you. If you dropped your account, I could ask him for print resources, if you wish.
Not been there for years. I am a bit hesitant to call on someone with personal connections to the topic because I intend to (ab)use said info for the belated April hoax. Around here I can assume that it would be understood as my usual Cthulic activity without any sinister intent. But the persecution of the Sami (a main target of the witch trials) is, I think, as sensible a topic as the Armenian genocide in WW1 is to Turks and Armenians.
I could order some literature directly from Norway but that would be rather expensive. I'll see, if one of the local universities has some of the stuff on my list. If not I'll have to drop some of the 'authenticity' I intended and simply make stuff up (I mean in addition to the stuff I make up anyway as part of the hoax).
What could help is, if someone here had access to academic sources (e.g. journals) he or she could scan and send me as a pdf.
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 03, 2012, 08:27:29 AM
What could help is, if someone here had access to academic sources (e.g. journals) he or she could scan and send me as a pdf.
I do, articles are all online so no scanning necessary, downloadable as PDF, but it breaks copyright I think, have been asked before, but won't. Too law abiding me. And haven't bothered to read the small print as to whether it does break copyright.
In the case of the articles I know of specifically, they are not online and for one I'd have to open a facebook account, which I won't do. But one is included in abook printed in Germany, so that might be available somewhere around here. Some stuff is probably only available in Norway itself. I could of course contact the author but given what I intend to use the info for, this would be very bad style.
The author(s) may be pleased to be part of an April FooL??
No, can't go to Sheffield, which is library I have access to, physically, too far.
I may go to Cambridge, where I am sure I could get access to the University Library (copyright library, so more likely to have books, probably not borrowable) but unlikely to go for a year or too........sorry! If you still need it summer after next, try asking me again.
I just found out that one of the more promising texts is in a book in English printed in Germany and (according to the catalogue) available at the library of the TU Berlin, i.e. my old alma mater that I can reach in half an hour :)
I hope
a) that the library is not closed this week
b) the book is there and not lent out
As I said in a post above, the topic is quite sensitive, so involving personally connected people is a minefield. People that have been mercilessly persecuted for alleged devil worship for centuries* may not appreciate a hoax that alleges that they actually worshipped Cthulhu. I guess Inuit are not fond of Lovecraft either given how he described them in his famous story.
*within living memory actually.
Quote from: Roland Deschain on March 31, 2012, 03:34:44 PM
But I love the almost realtime element of LotR, and the poems as well. Maybe i'm one of the odd ones out here, but I loved it all. PoN, we need words on your views on Tolkein and Herbert! :o ;)
Bradbury, Heinlein, and Wells are great authors, but i've never taken the plunge with McCaffrey, Norton, and White. One of my most treasured books is a first edition of The Time Machine (UK edition), which has been read many times.
I would draw your attention to Spider Robinson, Elizabeth Moon, and Sherri S Tepper.
This article seems to be available online at a number of universities but none I have access to. Anybody here in a better position?
Hagen, Rune Blix. "Sami shamanism: the arctic dimension." Magic, Ritual, and Witchcraft. University of Pennsylvania Press. 2006
Checked my Uni. They have it in their search results, but they don't have the text online.
Actually I shall probably be writing about shamanism in my essay, so it may have been of interest to me - :(
Thanks, The Meromorph. More to add to my list for future perusal! :)
I love the way The Meromorph pops up occasionally.
It makes me think that we all witter away and he just drops in and wisely sets us straight :)
Quote from: The Meromorph on April 03, 2012, 08:01:45 PM
I would draw your attention to Spider Robinson, Elizabeth Moon, and Sherri S Tepper.
Mero, I didn't know you read Sherri Tepper! I discovered a first edition -- in pristine condition -- of
The Gate to Women's Country in a remainder bin back in college.
(I re-read it every couple years, enjoying my own changing reactions, much like the actresses performing Iphigenia!) Thereafter, I found first editions of subsequent works at regular intervals under the same circumstances, until I finally decided that I *owed* her purchasing them properly, in appreciation.
Although, by the time I got to
The Fresco, I thought her pet theme was becoming a teensy bit repetitive and redundant...
A favorite quote: a deity character is talking with a female protagonist, answering her peeve at [his] failure to be OOO per her expectations, specifically notknowing her name. [He] responds that of course he knows her -- he made her and has always known her, but then admits, "I didn't know you call
yourself Margery."
Quote from: pieces o nine on April 04, 2012, 05:09:57 AM
A favorite quote: a deity character is talking with a female protagonist, answering her peeve at [his] failure to be OOO per her expectations, specifically notknowing her name. [He] responds that of course he knows her -- he made her and has always known her, but then admits, "I didn't know you call yourself Margery."
Probaby did not know she was an
Agony Aunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjorie_Proops) either ! ;D
I think I remember that one The Gate to Women's Country or perhaps it was another-- I've only read a couple of books by Tepper. The do not seem to come across my radar often enough for me to remember to read them, I guess. I enjoyed them both (whichever they were), but I cannot recall what either one was about... damn me for being old again, if you like. It was years and years ago.
What else is new? ::)
I do remember your favorite quote, though pieces (at least I remember reading it), and at the time, I liked the idea, even though it represents a failure of omniscience: an omniscient being would know how we address ourselves-- which would eliminate free will too, but there you go.
Quote from: Griffin NoName on April 04, 2012, 03:56:00 AM
I love the way The Meromorph pops up occasionally.
It makes me think that we all witter away and he just drops in and wisely sets us straight :)
It's true. I can vouch for this. ;) :-*
Quote from: Griffin NoName on April 03, 2012, 09:24:57 PM
Actually I shall probably be writing about shamanism in my essay, so it may have been of interest to me - :(
This book could then be of interest to you:
Shamans and Cultures (1993) edited by Mihály Hoppál and Keith D.Howard
it contains selected papers of the 1st conference od the International Society for Shamanistic Research 27-28 July 1991 in Seoul.
I concentrates on East and North Asian shamanism and has a chapter on North America. Africa and Europe seem to be missing.
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 04, 2012, 05:17:36 PM
Africa and Europe seem to be missing.
How odd. Unless it is taboo to write about them :o
Quote from: pieces o nine on April 04, 2012, 05:09:57 AM
Quote from: The Meromorph on April 03, 2012, 08:01:45 PM
I would draw your attention to Spider Robinson, Elizabeth Moon, and Sherri S Tepper.
Mero, I didn't know you read Sherri Tepper! I discovered a first edition -- in pristine condition -- of The Gate to Women's Country in a remainder bin back in college. (I re-read it every couple years, enjoying my own changing reactions, much like the actresses performing Iphigenia!) Thereafter, I found first editions of subsequent works at regular intervals under the same circumstances, until I finally decided that I *owed* her purchasing them properly, in appreciation.
Although, by the time I got to The Fresco, I thought her pet theme was becoming a teensy bit repetitive and redundant...
A favorite quote: a deity character is talking with a female protagonist, answering her peeve at [his] failure to be OOO per her expectations, specifically notknowing her name. [He] responds that of course he knows her -- he made her and has always known her, but then admits, "I didn't know you call yourself Margery."
I had the honor to turn our beloved Sibling Chatty on to Sherri's writing (I sent her one or two), and she was an immediate fan... :)
Quote from: Griffin NoName on April 04, 2012, 09:10:27 PM
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 04, 2012, 05:17:36 PM
Africa and Europe seem to be missing.
How odd. Unless it is taboo to write about them :o
Well, there is far less of it in Europe (exceptions: the Northernmost parts of Scandinavia and tiny remnants in Hungary). North America and Asia are connected on this (although loosely since the last Ice Aged ended) while Africa can be considred a spehere of its own religiously. Since the conference took place in Korea it's not that surprising either that shamanism in that region takes center stage.
Until the late 1990ies European shamanism got more or less ignored by the mainstream. There was another conference about this in Hungary iirc in 1999 but I only got an introductory paper about that. Ironically, European shamans (typically male) were strictly anti-witch but the churches did not appreciate their free-lancing and threw them together with their (typically female) opponents.
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 05, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
.... Ironically, European shamans (typically male) were strictly anti-witch but the churches did not appreciate their free-lancing and threw them together with their (typically female) opponents.
Just as the church has got much of history wrong, in it's drive to become the dominant power on earth...
... meh.
Quote from: Swatopluk on April 05, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
Well, there is far less of it in Europe (exceptions: the Northernmost parts of Scandinavia and tiny remnants in Hungary). North America and Asia are connected on this (although loosely since the last Ice Aged ended) while Africa can be considred a spehere of its own religiously. Since the conference took place in Korea it's not that surprising either that shamanism in that region takes center stage.
Korean shamanism still holds some currency today, so it was a good place to hold the conference. Shamans are almost always female there, as far as I know. Korean women in general are... formidable, and have sculpted the culture at many levels.
The editor of the above mentioned book, Mihály Hoppál, also seems to have produced a two-volume book specifically on Shamanism in Eurasia. But that's from 1984 and there has been a lot of new research since the late 1990ies. In particular there is now a split between those that consider trance to be essential for shamanism and those that consider it just one tool in the box or one aspect that is not mandatory. Sami shamans usually do without (despite the use of a drum) and so those of the first group consider excluding them from 'proper' shamanism. Same is true for the Hungarian shamanism where reports of trance are all based on hearsay or otherwise unreliable information.