The Language of Spirituality

[Opsa]

I was hanging out with my sis and her Beau last weekend drinking wine and talking religion and my sis said something that made me wonder. She said "You're spiritual, but I'm not." Now, I've known her all her life and to me she is spiritual. Her beau, on the other hand, said "I am spiritual". And I think he is, too. They are both artists and they think about life and stuff and to me that is spiritual. This has been bugging me, though, because obviously my sis and I have two different views as to what "spiritual" means. My guess is that she links spirituality to religion and I don't.

Yesterday I was browsing through a pagan book called The Spiral Dance, and even though I very much disagree with the author on many points, I came across this line: " "Can we make "religion" mean "re-linking"? And can we make "spirituality" refer to the human spirit?" and I said "Holy carp, that's IT!"

So I have to wonder, why is it that I hear "spirituality" and think of the human spirit and my younger sister hears it and thinks it refers to some kind of deity and my older sister hears it and thinks specifically of Jesus, even though we all grew up together? You'd think we came from three different countries.

[Griffin NoName]

And to some spirit just means vodka.

My sisters have totally different inner worlds to mine. Yes we grew up in the same family but day by day we had totally different experiences of the world at large. I the most outgoing and will have come into contact with by far the widest range of ideas etc etc and have had by far the most varied friendships etc. How much that is by personality and how much by coincidence of life events I have no idea. mmmm perhaps the life events would not have happened if I had their personalities?

[Aggie]

And to some spirit just means vodka.

That'd be my sister.  No, that's not quite right...  she'd also include gin, rum and Malibu.

Trying to contemplate on what sort of an inner world she has...  she's not much on introspection.  Or extrospection.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Opas, even the human spirit may mean two very different things, one related to an intangible essence that may survive our bodies or, some feature of our character related to our will.

To me the word (spirituality) brings the image/concept of something beyond ourselves, and while in most cases it is used as a reference for a 'world of souls', it may perfectly be equivalent to the concept of interrelation among ourselves and nature, which may be completely unrelated to the supernatural.

Still most people will associate it with the supernatural in one way or another. The word has also been nominated as a better understanding of such matters in lieu of the straight jacket of [the word] religion, but the subtleties in meaning may escape a lot of people (IOW: spirituality = religion).

Am I getting semantic on this one? 

[Darlica]

Am I getting semantic on this one? 

Maybe, but you managed to say exactly what I wanted to say but had trouble to word.

Thank you!

[anthrobabe]

I am spiritual- but not religious.

Spiritual to me it way to "big" to be so easily defined as one or the other-- as each of us speak about it I think about how the experience of living is a part of spiritual and how it is always different for each of us.

[Opsa]

Great reply, Zone! And no, you're not getting too semantic, since semantics seem to be the whole problem, here.

My problem is that anything that my sister perceives as being "religious" turns her off in a big way, and I can understand that. She always points the finger at religion as a predominant cause for wars and other stuggles and I agree with her there. However, I feel her distain over what we do here, as she takes "spiritual" to mean religious and that concerns me. I don't want to be turning people off just because they hate religion. I want to find a common ground for discussion.

It's odd, because she's not closed-minded in other ways. It is probably a protective thing for her, as she was suckered into a couple of culty organizations way back when she was young and naive. So how can we make clear that we are not condoning any religion and that we aren't a cult?

[Griffin NoName]

Interesting Opsa as I have wondered about the few people I've directed to this site - and haven't registered - whether they get the whole idea from the home page. It's the fact that it's a Monastery and then says the bit about "religious and non-religious". I don't think any of them would be particularly interested in discussing religion nor specifically looking for a non-religious place, but they would be interested in the tolerance and open-mindedness. Perhaps that particular bit of wording needs enhancing/changing?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Perhaps some wording in a prominent place saying something like "atheists, agnostics, spirituals, theists, religious or otherwise are welcome so long the principle of respect and tolerance among beliefs (or non beleifs) is espoused." .

Or something of the sort.

[Griffin NoName]

Perhaps some wording in a prominent place saying something like "atheists, agnostics, spirituals, theists, religious or otherwise are welcome so long the principle of respect and tolerance among beliefs (or non beleifs) is espoused." .

Or something of the sort.

I like that but I'd reverse the order:

All are welcome so long as our principle of respect and tolerance, including that of others beliefs (or non-beliefs) along with atheists, agnostics, spiritualists, theists, all religions or otherwise, are espoused.

That shows we are religion aware but would attract folk for whom it's not a reason to join a forum. Most folk I know are more worried about beliefs in vegetarianism, what causes illnesses, whether a belief in a positive outlook means you won't die, etc etc. ie. religion is but one of the many divisive beliefs in the world, and for those of us who came via TOP it's of a high relevance, but surely the root of our purpose is broader and we are more likely to attract people by foregrounding tolerance of all belief systems? Except I guess we don't want some of 'em - ?axe-murdering believers?

Oh and I'm ok with "espouse" but I'm not sure it might be better/simpler to say "followed" or some other word that falls well within the plain english camp?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

... including that of others beliefs (or non-beliefs) along with ...

That to me sounds like we have/share a particular belief but are willing to communicate with people with other beliefs. We do indeed share the belief in tolerance, but that is not a 'spiritual'/metaphysic/non-metaphysic kind of belief.

I guess the trick with the wording is to make clear that we are not a cult, and that we are more a place to find a common ground.

[Darlica]

So how can we make clear that we are not condoning any religion and that we aren't a cult?

Funny, I was cross-examining Aggi about that using another forums PM function before I registered here...

   
Maybe we should continue the part of this discussion that is about the Monastery elsewhere?

And not let Opsa threadjack her self...

[Opsa]

Well, I wondered about that, but it is something I thought that newer people may have some insight about as well.

"All are welcome so long as our principle of respect and tolerance of all beliefs and non-beliefs (along with atheists, agnostics, spiritualists, theists, all religions or otherwise) are observed. We are not a religion or a cult, but a group of people who, for open discussion's sake, agree to be tolerant and respectful of one another's views."

Did I get too redundant there at the end?

Maybe we need to be clear about not touting any one belief over others.

[Aggie]

I wonder if we have been stuck with hyper-awareness of spiritually-associated labels from our old digs?  It seems that here we've been more interested in finding common ground than trumpeting our differences.

_{Hell, I even renounced (formal) Autotheism.} 

[Opsa]

Hmmm, I like the way you put that.

"All are welcome so long as our principle of respect and tolerance of all beliefs and non-beliefs (along with atheists, agnostics, spiritualists, theists, all religions or otherwise) are observed. We are not a religion or a cult, but a group of people who, for open discussion's sake, agree to be tolerant and respectful of one another's views. We are more interested in finding common ground than trumpeting our differences."

?

[Griffin NoName]

spirituality: having an interest in finding common ground rather than trumpeting differences.

<back on topic>

[Bluenose]

I'm pretty sure I have said this before, but to me - a devout atheist - spirituality is synonymous with what Carl Sagan called the sense of the numinous, that feeling of awe and wonder that we experience when we gaze upon the deep or we look at the face of a baby orang utan, or, perhaps, if you are a believer, when you contemplate the face of god.

It seems a pity to me that some feel that religion has the right to claim spirituality for its own.  Religion may be a form of spirituality, but it is IMHO by no means the only receptacle for it.  The Toadfish Monastery is that rarest of rare beasts - a place where we accept all forms of spirituality.  Because of our emphasis on tolerance and respect I don't have to give up my unbelief to be able to have meaningful conversation with others including the many types of believers.  Neither do believers have to give up their belief to talk to me.  Together we can build a new way of thinking about spirituality, one based on inclusion rather than exclusion.  It can be a deeply meaningful experience for us all, yet we can each take our own perspective from it.  Those of us who believe in a god or gods can have our belief affirmed while those who do not can have our own feelings of awe and wonder affirmed.  It is not an either or scenario.

[Sibling Chatty]

Ya know, I know a LOT of religious folks.

Outside of here, I know very few truly spiritual ones...

Ops, your sister needs to remember that it's NOT religion that's the problem. It's man's ABUSE of religion... OF course, anybody that has been through a cult-type thing usually has trouble differentiating between the two.

[Opsa]

I have tried to explain that to her, but she has a wall up against it.

I guess I can't blame her for putting up the wall. A religion abused her, so I suppose she has decided to block them all in self-defense.

It is interesting though- if she wasn't spiritual, she wouldn't need to block them, as they would have no effect on her, whatsoever.

[anthrobabe]

Quoting Bluenose:
"that feeling of awe and wonder that we experience when we gaze upon the deep or we look at the face of a baby orang utan,"

Oh- that's it--- awe. I was so --privileged is an understatement- to be allowed to be a part of the first hours and days of our baby boy Mosi (western lowland gorilla) at our zoo, he's now a 30 pound year old- but that tiny perfect being that was born last October is astounding.

thankfully he has been mother raised and never touched by us humans- we've only been witness to the amazing life( oh and we deliver raisins on a regular basis, and sometimes peanut butter)