Xtian Assumptions

[Swatopluk]

The diffrence would be between deliberately induced hallucinations (fly agaric) and accidental ones (ergot).
There were a lot of choices between apocryphal scriptures, man yof which could have been abused. Revelations is actually pretty anti-Rome. And the author even stated explicitly that he spoke in simple code (e.g. that Babylon was code for 'the city on seven mountains' and the 666-Beast code for a specific human).
And apart from Revelations there is the Book of Daniel with its sequence of empires (gold=>silver=>bronze=>iron and clay). That last one, although likely originally aimed at the successor states of Alexander the Great, was interpreted at the time we are talking about as the Roman Empire (and later, even today, by protestants as the power share of Roman state and Roman church).

[Aggie]

I've been always a bit suspicious of Revelation 1:10 :

10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

I'd be curious of what translation has done to the phrase "in the Spirit" and what the original meaning was.

_{one could also read this passage as "I was drunk on Sunday, and farted"}

[Sibling DavidH]

Greek
γίνομαι ἐν πνεῦμα ἐν ὁ κυριακός ἡμέρα καί ἀκούω ὀπίσω ἐγώ φωνή μέγας ὡς σάλπιγξ

(πνευμα  pneuma  pnyoo'-mah:  ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.)

Latin Vulgate
1:10 fui in spiritu in dominica die et audivi post me vocem magnam tamquam tubae

They both plainly say in (the) spirit and are no help at all.    All the modern European-language versions I can understand say exactly the same.

[Swatopluk]

The Holy Ghost turned from female (Hebrew, Genesis 1) to neutral (Greek, NT) to male (Latin, Vulgata) and at least the last step was deliberate (iirc St.Hieronymus harps on God being male and that his spirit must be too).

[Aggie]

They both plainly say in (the) spirit and are no help at all.    All the modern European-language versions I can understand say exactly the same.

Thanks.  The term 'spirits' for strong drink originates much later, which shoots down that theory.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

If the guy was doing 'shrooms then spirit applies perfectly (although demon might be a better description).

[Aggie]

If the guy was doing 'shrooms then spirit applies perfectly (although demon might be a better description).

Dunno, have you heard of what Bill Hicks has to say about them?  

_{CAUTION: STRONG LANGUAGE}
[youtube=425,350]EkF9NZjrSIE[/youtube]

_{not advocating, mind...}  

Amanita poisoning is quite another matter, however.

[Swatopluk]

There is quite a difference between species of Amanita. Fly agaric might get you a bad trip, the ominously named Death Cap (A.phalloides) and Destroying Angel (A.bisporigera and A. ocreata in eastern and western North America, and A. virosa in Europe) are another goblet of water hemlock.

[Sibling DavidH]

This interests me, because only last Tuesday I was saying to the tutor of my church architecture course that the designer of the wonderful 12th-century "Herefordshire School of Sculpture"  must have been at the magic mushrooms which grow on the Black Mountains.  I was only half joking.  Look at the font at Castle Frome:

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Dunno, have you heard of what Bill Hicks has to say about them?  

Those seem like different mushrooms from the ones BH took, or it was one heck of a bad trip.

[Aggie]

Different mushrooms, certainly.

There is quite a difference between species of Amanita. Fly agaric might get you a bad trip, the ominously named Death Cap (A.phalloides) and Destroying Angel (A.bisporigera and A. ocreata in eastern and western North America, and A. virosa in Europe) are another goblet of water hemlock.

I had always thought the fly agarics dangerously toxic, if not as deadly as the white ones (and I did know different poisons were responsible). I'm not sure, after a bit of looking about the internet, if that is completely true.

[Opsa]

The Holy Ghost turned from female (Hebrew, Genesis 1) to neutral (Greek, NT) to male (Latin, Vulgata) and at least the last step was deliberate (iirc St.Hieronymus harps on God being male and that his spirit must be too).

It seems like the height of vanity to make a god be like yourself. Why didn't he just make a golden statue of himself and get it over with?

[pieces o nine]

It is my understanding that Walt used an image common from Europe without being aware of its other capacities. This bit has always mad the adult me smile, regardless.

[youtube=425,350]MeMIzUJSpsA[/youtube]

[Swatopluk]

From what I read the fly agaric has a similar reputation as the wolf, i.e. seen as a lethal threat of the first degree despite not a single case of proven death by it for centuries. (iirc the last unprovoked wolf attacks on humans reported in Central Europe happened during the 30 Years War when starvation not only hit humans). Also the fly agaric sticks out optically. The legend probably grew from there. They are definitely not healthy.
Btw, in antiquity they were THE favored hallucinogenic in Persia and were hideously expensive because they had to be imported from Greece. The hallucinogenic ingredient passes through the body mostly unaltered and leves it via urine. People that could not afford a regular supply of the shroom..eh..recycled..several times over.
----
DavidH, I see nothing especially mad about the sculpture there. Regular celtic knotwork and a comparitively naturalistic lion (apart from the wings of course, but those are a common additive too).
----
God left the making of golden statues to his earthly stand-ins. There is a golden statue of pope John Paul II. next to the cathedral of Mexico City (the church with the magic coat showing the black virgin Mary of Guadeloupe).

[Sibling DavidH]

DavidH, I see nothing especially mad about the sculpture there. Regular celtic knotwork and a comparitively naturalistic lion (apart from the wings of course, but those are a common additive too).

True - I must look out a better example.  I agree, it's not mad, just very imaginitive.