Religion and the PIIGS

[Sibling DavidH]

The present fiscal problems of Greece are drawing a lot of media attention to a group of Eurozone countries: Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain (the 'PIIGS').  All are up to their necks in debt and are finding it hard to cut back state spending.  As a result their credit status is poor and they are having to pay very high rates to borrow more.  Because they are tied into the Euro they have little room for manoeuvre; in particular they can't devalue.  The richer countries have declined to give specific pledges of support and their vague promises have not reassured the markets.
Many pundits are now predicting that Greece will be forced to leave the Euro and go back to the Drachma.  There could then be a domino effect with the other PIIGS.
My question - and it is only a question -  is this:
The PIIGS are precisely those EU countries which are the most dominated by authoritarian religion - 'priest-ridden' - or have been until very recently.  Is this a coincidence?
Of course I'm not thinking of any direct connection, a Dan-Brown-style plot.  I'm wondering more about attitudes to authority and to personal responsibility, stuff like that. 

[Swatopluk]

You probably have never witnessed the pathological religiosity in parts sof Southern Germany And (at least today) Southern Germany is economically much stronger than the secular North. The Iceland (not in the EU) crash is also only connected to the market religion not the traditional one.
I think you would have been right discussing some periods in the (not even too distant) past, where religious oppression indeed played a part in general backwardness.
On the other hand, the RCC has its own (often dirty) dealings in economy (including stocks in companies producing contraceptives) and has been involved in banking scandals of her own.
The problems of those countries seems to be in part that they tried to play in the major league without being ready. For some time both Ireland and Spain were lauded for their success, turning from Europe's poorhouses into booming economies. Italy has always been a bottomless pit of corruption and one could even claim that it was not the Church that corrupted Italy but the other way around. There is also a difference between North and South there. Separatism has quite a lobby in the North.
Greece looks like a special case. The country should have never been allowed in in the first place (we'd imo be better off with Turkey or at least the Western part of it)

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

IMO there are two distinct reasons for the problems, blatant deregulation (Spain, Ireland, Iceland) and endemic corruption (Italy, Greece, Portugal). The first can be solved relatively easy if there is political will, the second is a bit harder to manage.

As for the supposed fall of the Euro (paraphrasing) the rumors of it's demise have been greatly exaggerated, from this side of the pond all the 'analysts' you can hear come from the UK with an apparently vested interest in it's failure (something related to been a naysayer and have the pleasure of saying 'I told you so'), but short memories abound, and they seem to forget that the Euro was at 0.82 per dollar not to long after it's birth and now stands at a quite healthy (IMO) 1.36 per dollar. More importantly, exports dependent economies like Germany have a lot to gain from a weak Euro.

Lastly I want to tell two related stories from my (widely corrupt) part of the world.

A few years back Argentina tried to stabilize it's currency after their catastrophic inflation in the previous years; to do so, there was an effort to have some fiscal responsibility, change the currency and peg it to the dollar. The stratagem worked well, until the central government figured out they could go back to their money printing habits. For a while it seemed OK but it didn't took long until the currency crashed and burn killing more than half the savings of the country in order the save the banks (sounds familiar?), with a massive devaluation.

Interestingly the architect of the Argentinian model went to Ecuador to do pretty much the same with one important difference: he got rid of the local currency (the sucre) and replaced it with the American dollar. The result is that despite rampant corruption and political strife for the past 10 years the economy hasn't been as affected by inflation and/or devaluation.

The reason for these tales is that when a corrupt government has the opportunity to print notes to pay it's bills it will do so. If they can't they are forced to either be fiscally responsible or (and that is Greece's case) raise their debt.

My guess now is that there will be some effort to decouple that debt with the currency itself, allowing the countries to go under without affecting the common currency.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Well, dangit, I saw the title and assumed I had a perfectly good reason to rant.

Then along come a couple of reasoned, rational analysis-posts and I'm forced to face reality:    the problem lies with good ole' human greed, as always, and not ideology.

<shrug> 



Interesting posts--food for thinking.

And makes me pause and ponder, the USofA seems to be going down the same road to government corruption that messed the economies of other noted-and-notables mentioned.

What happens to the world, when one of the major players' economy hits the crapper, due to rampant corruption of it's government?

More to the point.... how the heck do we fix it, when much of the corruption lies with money-bags special interests responsible for the corruption in the first place?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As an aside, one positive step in the right direction was suggested by my sister-in-law:   Congress and the Senate need to start operating on the NASCAR style of support--- (when implemented, by law, and failure to comply means immediate expulsion from the arena)

--- ALL and I do mean ALL corporate sponsors of congress critters now get Official Patches.  These Patches are to be worn on the clothing of the recipients at all times-- no exceptions; if the congress-critter is wearing clothes?  He/she must have official patches of his/her sponsors sewn on.   Flashy jewelry is an allowable substitute, so long as the sponsor's logo is visible and recognizable.  ^{_{(i.e. if sponsor-n!pple-rings are used, they must be visible.)}}   During speeches, background posters that display prominent sponsorship, of patches normally on the back of clothing, is allowable.

The congress-critter's handlers are allowed to negotiate the placement of said patches with the corporate sponsors-- it is to be presumed that a steady market would be created in the negotiation of more desirable locations, such as right-breast pocket, and in the case of large-headed congress-critters, hat placement.  It is assumed that a return to wearing of various headwear will commence.   This lively negotiation will only help to stimulate the economy.

Non-corporate sponsorship over a certain amount by individuals will have special patches created with the sponsor's full name.

Very high dollar sponsorships over a certain amount would be changed from a sew-on patch, to a tattoo, applied directly to the face, neck and other exposed areas of skin.

The intended result is that the people who elected these monsters greedy-guts congress-critters will easily learn exactly who is truly behind them, and who they are really representing.

[ivor]

I sssooooo don't believe in rights for corporations!!!  Corporations are made up of people that already have rights.  What's next?  Do we give them the right to vote?

[beagle]

The PIIGS are precisely those EU countries which are the most dominated by authoritarian religion - 'priest-ridden' - or have been until very recently.  Is this a coincidence?
Of course I'm not thinking of any direct connection, a Dan-Brown-style plot.  I'm wondering more about attitudes to authority and to personal responsibility, stuff like that. 

Much though I'd like to pin this one on religion I don't think it really holds water. Neither do I particularly think that the Mediterranean countries are subject to an lotus-eating mentality alien to the frozen Northern puritans.  After all, Greece and Rome once ruled the world.

I'd pin it largely on the Euro and uselessness of one-size-fits-all interest rates for managing the economies of totally disparate countries. I'm not that familiar with Greece or Italy, but everyone knew the building and housing booms of Ireland, Spain and Portugal were the result of ridiculously low (for them)  interest rates.  These were possible because of the myth that Italian debt was as good to hold as German debt. When the Eurosceptic long-predicted "asymmetric shock" hit it rapidly became obvious that there was no real enthusiasm amongst French and German politicians to back up Euro solidarity with capital transfers, and the emperor's birthday suit became rapidly apparent.

As for the UK mess, I'd put that largely down to GB expanding the public sector at every hint of a slowdown, resulting in something like £600BN of long term public sector pension liabilities "hidden" (but not very well) off balance sheet. That level of fiscal profligacy dwarfs the bank bail-out sums.

[Swatopluk]

Bob, during the Gilded Age congress critters were informally known by their sponsors' names, e.g. The Senator from/of Rockefeller/Western Pacific Railroads/etc.
Today Holy Joe Lie-bermann gets called the senator from Aetna quite often. It's not as if the source of corruption is unknown to those that take at least minimum notice.
I'd be more for the obedience collar, allowing the constituents to give them electric shocks. The strength would depend on the relation of negative to positive signals and their total number. Each constituent could give one signal per day. Holy Joe would either get honest or scorched within a week.

[pieces o nine]

Bob & Swato: I ♥ your ideas!

I think there are exciting vistas within the ecclesiastical ranks (whether directly involved with currency debacles or not) to display the same type of sponsor's patches. The truth would set them (and their flocks!) free!






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[Sibling DavidH]

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  Pieces, that's twice today you've made me nearly rupture something with laughing.  Please be careful, I'm very old.


Well, my Siblings say no.  Thank you for your consideration, O Wise Ones - but it's a pity in a way:  I just LUURVE bashing catholicism. 
_{That's not prejudice, of course. Perish the thought!}

[Swatopluk]

The non-Roman varieties are rather decent afaict.
Not all catholics are Roman!!! (I am neither the one nor the other)

[Sibling DavidH]

Among the Whooples of Fooplegloop, Bloopit IV, there is said to be a group of Postulatian Catholics who emigrated from Tharg millenia ago.  They are said to be not too bad as long as you keep upwind of the K'kaak (obviously) and wash your hind antennae before you flunge.
Otherwise I know only the Roman and the Anglo variety.

[Swatopluk]

There are the Altkatholiken, who left the RCC after Vaticanum I (the one where the pope had himself declared infallible).
They are usually the first address for RCC priests that want to both marry and stay in their learned profession.

[Sibling DavidH]

Well, you live and learn!  But if they call themselves Old Catholics you'd expect extreme conservatism, and yet they marry.  Hmm ...

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Congress and the Senate need to start operating on the NASCAR style of support--- (when implemented, by law, and failure to comply means immediate expulsion from the arena) ALL and I do mean ALL corporate sponsors of congress critters now get Official Patches. 

Patch and color proportional to the amount given to the campaign. Logos of the major sponsors visible at all times in all campaign advertising.
---
Sadly it isn't to be, the law struck down by the supreme court allows them to make their speech without the approval the critter in question, therefore if corporation A decides to "make the case" for congress-critter X, (s)he can claim that it was without their approval.

It is fundamentally the worst possible outcome making any attempt of regulation meaningless.

Well, prepare for the next Exxon-Mobil/Conoco-Phillips/Walmart/Intel/Microsoft/GE government, and welcome our corporate overlords for a long reign.

[Darlica]

There are the Altkatholiken, who left the RCC after Vaticanum I (the one where the pope had himself declared infallible).
They are usually the first address for RCC priests that want to both marry and stay in their learned profession.

We also have the Liberal Catholic Church, which the Vatican won't even touch with am 11'feet pole... 
L and I know a person who is a Pater in the Swedish branch of that church, a very nice guy. Come to think of it, it is actually the only church I could imagine visit without risking to choke on my tongue during service. 

[Griffin NoName]

Of course I'm not thinking of any direct connection, a Dan-Brown-style plot. 

Have just started reading The Symbol. Hope this thread does not contain spoilers