Church

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Disclaimer: personal opinions about religion below. The commentaries are a reflection of my inner thoughts on the subject, and are in no means an attempt to offend those who held those beliefs dear.
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I went to church today (to sing, not something I would do for myself), and while I listened the the pastor (a woman for a change) I was doing a mental exercise trying to exclude what I didn't like and listen to what I like. After years of catholic brainwashing I have some very negative associations to words like 'sin', 'obedience', 'submission', etc, etc, but I am still receptive to words of respect to others, charity, etc.

It got me thinking, what would be a service in which there is no mention of the 'bad' words? I personally don't want to hear that I, for the sole reason of existing, am dirty of some sort of 'original' sin. I am quite capable to make a mess of myself without the help of some mythic disobedience, thank you very much, and while I do believe that makes sense to be told to be a decent person, I can't stand the idea of 'submitting to the lord' in order to become such decent person.

Obviously I have a problem with authority, and the idea of total obedience and submission bothers me to no end, but, I do understand that the concept of submitting one self to the good inside is generally a good idea. Also I do see certain relation with the concept of internal discipline, to better yourself, to learn self control, all good ideas in my opinion.

What would be a spiritual service that doesn't make emphasis on dogma but reminds us to be better persons? Would any of you go to such a service being a believer or not? Would it have to avoid the word 'god' (personally I would prefer so)?

Lastly, I believe Q has some idea of how the UU works, is that similar in any respect?

[Griffin NoName]

.............. and while I do believe that makes sense to be told to be a decent person,

Aristotle through Bentham to Seligman all link happiness with virtue..............  so it doesn't really need a church..... you wan't to be happy? Be good!!

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

*sigh*

That's twice in this forum's software, that I had a nice, long thought-out post all ready to submit....and *bampf*

It's gone.

As result, I've lost my train of thought, and the desire to post it anyhow..... maybe later.

[Aggie]

What would be a spiritual service that doesn't make emphasis on dogma but reminds us to be better persons? Would any of you go to such a service being a believer or not? Would it have to avoid the word 'god' (personally I would prefer so)?

Lastly, I believe Q has some idea of how the UU works, is that similar in any respect?

Kind of sounds like UU to me, Ops will know better.  I've been tempted to attend our local Unitarian church a few times, or rather, I mean to go there eventually but haven't gotten around to it (too busy breaking the Ten Commandments - pick your Sabbath, I worked 12 or 13 hours on it this week  ).

I think that there's a lot more to belonging to a religious community than just the sermons; OTOH, our Unitarian church has some interesting topics.

[beagle]

What would be a spiritual service that doesn't make emphasis on dogma but reminds us to be better persons?

I have a terrible feeling it would be like our old school assemblies.

Would any of you go to such a service being a believer or not?

Only if I couldn't hide behind the bike sheds or under the school stage.

[pieces o nine]

After years of catholic brainwashing I have some very negative associations to words like 'sin', 'obedience', 'submission', etc, etc, but I am still receptive to words of respect to others, charity, etc.

Hear! Hear!
And for your penance recovery, I recommend reading Growing Up Catholic.

It got me thinking, what would be a service in which there is no mention of the 'bad' words?
...
What would be a spiritual service that doesn't make emphasis on dogma but reminds us to be better persons? Would any of you go to such a service being a believer or not? Would it have to avoid the word 'god' (personally I would prefer so)?

Zono, I've actually given a handful of sermons, right from thee bullie pulpitte, when "discerning my vocation". Looking back, my editorials and sermons  --[FWIW: always referred to as commentaries]--  reveal a distinct lack of something: no claims to be speaking / praying / writing in anyone's name or on anyone's 'authority' but my own. No haranguing. No fallacious appeals to authority, living, dead, or other. Some (IM-O-HO) quality skewering of blind pious hypocrisy. A couple hard-liners always waited for me outside the church door for a 'word' or tried to engage me in 'debate'. But no one ever rose up screaming, "Burn her! Burn the Witch!" (ha!) and a few very nice, very traditional members were most receptive and encouraging, despite the complete absence of Repent! Sin! Hellfire & Damnation! and harangues-to-Tithe! ...

That's when I coined a favorite pun, one I'd like made into a bumper sticker someday:
NOT LIVING UNDER HAMARTIAL LAW    
Technically -- it *is* Biblical, and Pauline  Biblical at that... 

Despite large swaths of spiritually blighted areas, there are 'religious' people focused on living good lives for the sake of living good lives, quite disinterested in pistol-whipping *anyone* with either scriptures or dogmas, if I may mix a metaphor. Such groups are anathematized by their more loud and proud fundamentalist neighbors, but they exist and they flourish.

You're likely to encounter such an environment with the UUs. Here's a little quiz to get a pretty accurate read on what group would be the most compatible at this time. I've recommended it to several people who were church-shopping after a move, a big change in their lives, or a gradual realization that they needed to make some changes of their own. If you have a hankerin' for a spiritual community, I wish you the best in finding one in your town that nourishes, challenges, and encourages you to listen to your own heart and conscience.



~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
With apologies to Robert Frost:
Many roads diverged in the spiritual woods, and I--
I took one much less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

[Opsa]

Weird coincidence, my dear Zono. I went to church, yesterday, too. 

I have some very good friends whose father has a goodly amount of land near here, and recently has offered to let me use an old schoolhouse located on his property to start a theater lab, which has been a dream of mine for a long time. This area is bereft of theater, and I would like to see a children's theater and a community theater and am slowly realizing it will be up to me to start this, even though I am fairly clueless as to how it's done. (I'll re-start this subject elsewhere.)

Anyway, the schoolhouse is adjacent to an old stone church, which is also on my friend's Dad's property. He has gone to a lot of trouble to restore it, but it has a miniscule congregation. So he suggested that we attend the service and then walk over with the Dad to see the schoolhouse. Sneaky! So we went with another theater-booster family, which consists of three agnostics, one of whom was raised Jewish.

The church is Methodist, which I'd always assumed was rather middle-of-the-road, as far as Christianity is concerned. Well, you should have seen the wild eyes flying around when the preacher started talking about blood and flesh and gore and all that stuff! I have another friend who calls Christianity a "death cult" and I kept thinking about that. The Opsalette was grossed out. There was also talk of living for the purpose of serving Jesus alone, which did not sit well with me. I respectfully said nothing.

At the end they gave communion, which I don't recall ever doing in my life, and never intended to. When the preacher waved me up, I quietly shook my head, but seeing as our families made up more than half of the attendance, we were finally coerced into going up front with everyone else. My raised- Jewish friend was giving me the stink eye, and it was all I could do to keep from laughing. I went along with it and took the bread and wine, making a mental note that this was just to be polite. But really, I thought, what a bunch of guilt-oriented stuff it is, no wonder it does not reach my heart. Still, if it helps other people be good and feel good, I will not knock it.

But it's so not for me.

I was raised UU and we had a wonderful minister growing up. He always seemed so happy and pleasant and full of good humor. We never were threatened with hellfire or told horrible stories about how Jesus was tortured and killed. Whenever we heard about Jesus, (and it was only sometimes), it was usually in discussion about his positive philosophies. We also heard about other positive philosophies. My memories of UU church are all pretty cool ones.

I have met people who have had less wonderful experiences with the UU church. Apparently there are some that seem to promote liberal guilt. A friend of mine described a UU church in California as being a place where you were unworthy unless you had " adopted a handicapped lesbian Native American". (I know she was trying to be funny.) I guess I was lucky not to have gone to one of those.

Unitarians vary a lot. There are Christian Unitarians, Pagan Unitarians and even Atheist Unitarians. At this point, I'm not even sure what anyone means by "church" or "religion" , but I do know that at it's core, Unitarianism only asks that you say you believe only if you really do, and you look into your heart and mind and decide for yourself what is true for you.

If your mind is open, you can expose yourself to different religions and maybe your path will take you to where things make sense. Unitarianism accepts that different people find spirituality different ways. So a part of me will always remain Unitarian.

[The Meromorph]

This was the top portion of my results from that Beliefnet quiz:

1.    Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2.    Secular Humanism (98%)
3.    Neo-Pagan (82%)

And the bottom portion:

23.    Orthodox Judaism (19%)
24.    Eastern Orthodox (18%)
25.    Islam (18%)
26.    Roman Catholic (18%)
27.    Jehovah's Witness (11%)


The fact that I was raised Roman Catholic (Altar Bboy, and all that) makes the bottom portion a little amusing to me.
I admit to a little surprise at the #1 result...  .
And how could they omit 'Dancing on the Wheel' ?   

[Opsa]

Meri!!!!!!!!!!!!


Saints be praised!!!! 

[Aggie]

Hmph, might have to re-run that - I dunno if UU actually placed highly on my run-through (this morning over oatmeal).  I know that I was 100% Secular Humanist _{(which I actually find a little boring - apologies to our SH siblings)}, and number 3 was Liberal Quaker (admittedly, it was a rather liberal dose of oatmeal, with some dried apricots chopped in).  UU might have been #2? 

It's going to bug me now.  Might as well re-run over linguine now and see if Pastafarianism places in the top 5. 

EDIT: Top 5 are as follows:
1.    Secular Humanism  (100%)
2.    Unitarian Universalism (97%)
3.    Liberal Quakers (92%)
4.    Neo-Pagan (81%)
5.    Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (76%)


Unlike Mero, neither Orthodox Judaism or Islam make my bottom 5 (both are at 27%).  I attribute this to the amount of hummus I eat , but the fact that Eastern Orthodox makes the bottom 3 suggests I'm not eating enough pyrohy for a half-Ukrainian kid.

You are what you eat, sez I. 

[beagle]

No big surprises here I think:

1.  Secular Humanism (100%) 
2.  Unitarian Universalism (93%) 
3.  Nontheist (77%) 
4.  Liberal Quakers (70%) 
5.  Theravada Buddhism (67%) 
6.  Neo-Pagan (62%) 
7.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (57%) 
8.  Reform Judaism (44%) 
9.  New Age (43%) 
10.  Taoism (38%) 

...

20.  Islam (20%) 
21.  Orthodox Judaism (20%) 
22.  Roman Catholic (20%) 
23.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (17%) 
24.  Jainism (16%) 
25.  Seventh Day Adventist (11%) 
26.  Hinduism (9%) 
27.  Jehovah's Witness (9%) 


Slightly surprised Hinduism is so low. Think there is a lack of granularity in the questions to show up stuff like "Of the religions you don't believe in whose judgement approach looks most rational" 

I think the 20% Islam must be when I forget to shave.

[Darlica]

1.    Unitarian Universalism  (100%)
2.    Neo-Pagan (95%)
3.    Liberal Quakers (94%)
4.    Secular Humanism (92%)
5.    New Age (88%)
6.    Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (83%)
7.    Theravada Buddhism (74%)
8.    Mahayana Buddhism (71%)
9.    Reform Judaism (68%)
10.    Taoism (64%)
11.    Nontheist (61%)
12.    New Thought (58%)

13.    Orthodox Quaker (55%)
14.    Scientology (52%)
15.    Baha'i Faith (50%)
16.    Jainism (44%)
17.    Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (42%)
18.    Sikhism (42%)
19.    Orthodox Judaism (36%)
20.    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (28%)
21.    Hinduism (28%)
22.    Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (27%)
23.    Islam (26%)
24.    Seventh Day Adventist (23%)
25.    Eastern Orthodox (18%)
26.    Roman Catholic (18%)
27.    Jehovah's Witness (11%)

Interesting, not the way I percept my beliefs but remove the "Liberal Quakers" and the "Reformed Judaism" and the new top ten gets a bit more acceptable the rest of the list is just filler I think, common things we all can agree about... 
The "Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants" get to stay but should be placed further down top 10, I'm baptised after all (as a newborn) and I still know my "Our Father" and some odd psalms, and, most important of all I'm raised in a society that still considered it self Christian and had a State Church* (Protestant Christian), all though my family always been rather secularized, that does leave some lasting imprints.

I'm much clearer on what I'm not  believing in than what I do believe.
I do not believe:

In the original sin.

In a bearded man in the sky.

That the earth was created in 7 days or the rest of the Genesis, my take on the Bible as a whole is that it is a book of myths, stories told around the fires of ages long gone, like the stories about other deities, older ones or from other part of the world.

That Mary was a virgin.

That one religion or the followers of a certain religion are are better people or are more right than the rest.

That someone has the right to force their beliefs on someone else child or adult alike.



I could probably list a lot more but that would get tedious I think.



_{* Since year 2000 we no longer have a State Church}

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Hmm, I did the test twice and in the second run Mahayana Buddhism ranked higher but the top 3 and bottom 3 are the same...

1.    Unitarian Universalism  (100%)
2.    Theravada Buddhism (93%)
3.    Secular Humanism (90%)
4.    Liberal Quakers (83%)
5.    Neo-Pagan (82%)
6.    Mahayana Buddhism (75%)
7.    New Age (75%)
8.    Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (71%)
9.    Taoism (69%)
10.    Jainism (61%)
11.    Reform Judaism (61%)
12.    Sikhism (61%)
13.    Nontheist (60%)
14.    New Thought (51%)
15.    Scientology (48%)
16.    Orthodox Quaker (47%)
17.    Hinduism (45%)
18.    Baha'i Faith (42%)
19.    Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (37%)
20.    Orthodox Judaism (31%)
21.    Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (23%)
22.    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (23%)
23.    Islam (22%)
24.    Seventh Day Adventist (19%)
25.    Eastern Orthodox (14%)
26.    Roman Catholic (14%)
27.    Jehovah's Witness (9%)

I consider myself a Agnostic/Buddhist so I guess it fits. As for how successful my Catholic upbringing was... 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

1.    Secular Humanism (100%)
2.    Unitarian Universalism (91%)
3.    Liberal Quakers (76%)
4.    Nontheist (73%)
5.    Theravada Buddhism (67%)
6.    Neo-Pagan (65%)
7.    Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (62%)
8.    New Age (52%)
9.    Taoism (48%)
10.    Reform Judaism (43%)
11.    Orthodox Quaker (41%)
12.    Mahayana Buddhism (40%)
13.    Baha'i Faith (30%)
14.    Sikhism (30%)
15.    Scientology (29%)
16.    New Thought (27%)
17.    Jainism (26%)
18.    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (23%)
19.    Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (20%)
20.    Seventh Day Adventist (18%)
21.    Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (17%)
22.    Hinduism (15%)
23.    Eastern Orthodox (14%)
24.    Islam (14%)
25.    Orthodox Judaism (14%)
26.    Roman Catholic (14%) 
27.    Jehovah's Witness (8%)

Always thought that Quaker would be the way I went if I went back to Christianity.
I generally consider myself a nontheist/atheist as a general rule, mostly because I don't actually care if there's a god or not but I'm going to try to live a good life regardless. I can't imagine what on earth would make me match Mormonism and Scientology at such a high level. It baffles me.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I think Scientology isn't further down because it isn't as intolerant as the ones at the bottom. 

The test seems to match certain parts of a tenet, which in real life isn't workable, I may believe in charity but if I'm not willing to submit to the all mighty I can't be a Xtian or Muslim according to many denominations.

That Mary was a virgin.

Have you heard Erich Von Däniken's hypothesis on the subject? She may have been a virgin when the Gods (ETs) did in vitro fertilization on her.
---
A somewhat related comic (although a bit judgemental )

http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=307