Xmas is about Jesus... or not

[stellinacadente]

At the local Walmart checkout... after fighting the crowds and my 7 year old high on sugar for two hours, while the machine is doing its magic charging....
the attendant takes upon herself to educate me
"Is this your Xmas shopping?" - she goes with a very evident judging demeanor
"Yes" I respond while getting my bags into the cart
"Xmas is all about Jesus, you know?" she goes pointing proudly at the large badge on her chest and pursuing her lips in a disapproving manner

I look at her almost flabbergasted.

For a split second I want to lie and tell her that I am Jewish just to see that smirk of superiority and self righteousness disappear into an embarrassed "I am sorry".

I also so want to tell her that the actual day of birth Jesus is actually unknown (and the most prominent theories tend to identify a late September-mid October date) and that the day of Xmas was chosen in the 4th century CE based on the fact that it  coincided with the Pagan celebration of Rebirth of the Sun God (The Roman - natalis solis invicti or Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness") so that the Pagans repression and forced conversion to Christianity would be easier on them.

Then I looked at her, smiled and thanked her for her help and walked on.
Why waste my breath on someone with such an evident narrow mind?

[Griffin NoName]

Yes, exact dates are suspect. But people don't like variations.

[stellinacadente]

Yes, exact dates are suspect. But people don't like variations.

Don't know about Mitras, the Solis invictus was celebrated for 12 days by the Romans starting on the Winter Solstice day.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The moment she said "Xmas is all about Jesus" all rational discussion became pointless. I sometimes wish that challenging deeply held beliefs will effect some change in the individual, but in reality it doesn't, and it can't, how can you tell someone that the base of their belief is false, that what their supposed 'facts' are a fable with no historical base, that all this time they have been following a fantasy? If a piece of their belief is false how could they trust the remainder, more when it has been sold as inspired by the absolute? You can't educate a believer, (s)he has to educate him/herself based upon the realities of life and let those challenge those beliefs. 

[stellinacadente]

I totally agree Zono... I just wish they would respect the fact that are people in this world that are not part of their crowd.

[pieces o nine]

It sounds like you handled that well, Stelli.   



In a case like that -- as in many life experiences -- you get choices:

1. Reply in a manner intended to rock Witness's sense of order.
e.g.:  "Hmmmm;  I am Wiccan.  Blessed Be."

2. Reply in a manner intended to educate.
"Actually, that date was fixed bleah...bleah...bleah."  or  "DId you know that the Pilgrims not only did *not* celebrate Christmas but bleah...bleah...bleah?"

3. Reply in a taddy manner.
"Thank you for your help. You have a real nice holiday."  <--- (OK, some hidden snark there!)

4. Quietly, calmly, and pleasantly approach the supervisor or a member of management to advise that the clerk (nameplate "X") in register #X is sharing her religious beliefs in a challenging and aggressive manner, and if that is store policy then you, your family, and your friends will be happy to shop somewhere else.
Then quietly and pointedly heft your shopping bag(s) and leave calmly and without making a ruckus, identifying *your* faith (or non-), or calling attention to yourself in any way.



I've used variations on all of these, dependent upon the situation and what felt appropriate, and I will continue to use them all with the same considerations. To be honest, #4 is the most effective because most retail managers (and their District Managers!) worship profits much more than they worship Jesus, no matter where their store is located. But it must be used with care, as a knee-jerk firing of a zealot doesn't benefit either the zealot or the community.

Although, if the zealot is a repeat offender, allowing them to wallow in a sense of persecution might actually accommodate their deepest need...

[Sibling DavidH]

This would be very unlikely to happen in the UK - if it did, Pieces' #4 ought to be very effective.  But here, religious "witness" would be considered so weird that you could get away with just telling her to fuck off.

When faced with bad service in big stores I have often found a manager and asked whether they recruit their staff directly from the lunatic asylums, or have their brains surgically removed when they hire them.

[stellinacadente]

@Pisces

I was very very very tempted by #4, with the additional 1st amendment violation aggravation to really make the the store manager perk his ears (ie. civil rights law suit/bad publicity etc).
Then I thought that I really do not want the bad karma of having someone fired at "Xmas"

@DavidH
I know, right! I use to make fun of the American preachers at Oxford circle trying to redeem us one by one...
should really move back to the UK 

In the end though I guess the best way to handle is to go your way and know that


(AWWW I always wanted to use that smiley!)

[Swatopluk]

I know people that always have some tracts or pamphlets ready for such occasions. Originally to counter Jehovah's Witnesses. Before they can even launch their usual spiel, they get handed one. Depending on persuasion it can be a traditional Christian one or something .. eh .. different (e.g. a Cthulhufied Chick tract as one can find on the net).
That's the hardcore version of Pieces' #1 

[Sibling DavidH]

Yes, I used to keep extracts from the Screeves of St Postula near the front door to hand out to JWs etc.

But door-knocking and preaching in the street are one thing; "witnessing" at work or in a shop would be almost unheard-of.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

5.  Retort:  "Oh, most certainly!  And I see you are quietly doing your part to change it into a season of spending, by working in a shopping mall.  Good work!"

These people are often quite confused if you start off seemingly agreeing with them, then walk away as you deliver your punchline/joke.   Leaves them quite confused.

I first stumbled upon this tactic from the early Steve Martin's comedic style, along with a George Carlin gem:

Carlin:  When asked by some thoughtless person how I am doing, I often respond with:  'I am not unwell, thanks!'   This leaves them dazed and confused because they have to think about it.

[stellinacadente]

That' a good one bob...

I shall keep it in my for the next zealot  with they catch me in one of my days off

Now that I am thinking of it... these people make good target practice for my dry sarcastic jokes

[Griffin NoName]

On a simlar theme, well, almost, and anyway we need a bit of thread drift here.........

I just read an article about a couple who never lie to their (very young) children - they are atheist so tell them they (the parents) don't believe but that they (the chidlren) will have to make their own minds up.

So,,,,,,,, comes to Christmas and they agonise over whether to tell the children Father Christmas does not exist...... ( and Tooth Fairies),,,,,,,,, eventually decide not to explode the myth

So........... I found this all rather intriguing. Don't lie about Faith issues, but it is ok to lie about a ridiculous made up character that every adult knows does not exist (or do some adults still believe in FC?).

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

On a simlar theme, well, almost, and anyway we need a bit of thread drift here.........

I just read an article about a couple who never lie to their (very young) children - they are atheist so tell them they (the parents) don't believe but that they (the chidlren) will have to make their own minds up.

So,,,,,,,, comes to Christmas and they agonise over whether to tell the children Father Christmas does not exist...... ( and Tooth Fairies),,,,,,,,, eventually decide not to explode the myth

So........... I found this all rather intriguing. Don't lie about Faith issues, but it is ok to lie about a ridiculous made up character that every adult knows does not exist (or do some adults still believe in FC?).

This reminds me of an internet cartoon-- I could not find it again, but I tried.

Anywho, the cartoon is a message to kids is this:

Whenever you parents try to guilt you into doing what they want (over what you, the kid want), simply say:

'Santa Claus'

[stellinacadente]

(or do some adults still believe in FC?).

I believe in him... just not the Coca-cola version that was brainwashed into society's minds since the 1930s...

I believe in the original one... from the Norse tradition...and that Father Xmas (Or more truthfully - Father Winter.... is not about commercial consumptions of goods )

[Opsa]

Actually, Ms. Zealot was technically right, Christmas is about Christ. But if she was really following Christ's advice, she wouldn't be pushing him on others. From what I understand, he would have hated that, and would probably have tried as hard as you did to figure out a way to make her see that her comment was thoughtless. He probably would have just did what you did, and walked away. "Turning the other cheek", I think is the phrase.

For me, the season is Yule, but anyone can call it what they like. I wouldn't dare try to educate people who were at the mercy of my cash register line on the nuances of my very eclectic beliefs. That was really boorish of her. Fairly typical, too. I'm sorry you had to deal with her tactlessness.

[stellinacadente]

ehhehhe... as usual Opsa, you have the most charming way to be right

I guess there were more then just her affirmations that bugged me...

Yule is what I celebrate (or Natalis Solis invictus, solstice whatever you want to call it) and it is the return of light on Earth... and the main thing is that date for Xmas was chosen exactly to coincide with the pagan festival and shun it...

in the end though, I'd rather not even try to educate zealot because it's a waste of energy

[anthrobabe]

What usually shuts them up for me is the

"You do know that everything was borrowed from the pagans? No? Really, look it up on the internet. Not the Answers in Genesis part of it but the other part of the internet. And also you are aware that X is the Greek letter Chi (and make sure I pronounce it properly-or they will think I am talking about that amazingly expensive hair iron), and so really it is not taking christ out of anything it is very likely  just sort of a shortcut thingie that some newspaper did once upon a time and you can look that up also and you also know that alpha and omega and all that are Greek as well."

By then their eyes are glazed and I can mosey along happily.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

...
By then their eyes are glazed and I can mosey along happily.

To quote Don Hendley's song "Dirty Laundry":

"Like cows at a passing train..."

[stellinacadente]

...
By then their eyes are glazed and I can mosey along happily.

To quote Don Hendley's song "Dirty Laundry":

"Like cows at a passing train..."

Now that would be amusing

MWHAHAHAHAHAH!