Oracle Institute rejected in Virginia town

[Opsa]

I read an article this morning in The Washington Post about a woman that wants to build a 'Peace Pentagon' in her town in Virginia, but it got voted down due to the Christian majority there, who felt it was "un-Christian". Uhhh... who exactly was the Prince of Peace, anyway? These so-called Christians must be worshiping the Artist Formerly Known as the Prince of Peace, maybe?

I find it really rather sad that she is unable to do this project, so far. According to the article, they planned to have guest speakers from all faiths there on a regular basis, kinda like at a Unitarian church, but hers does seem to have a more openly Pagan bend to it, which is what is probably causing alarm to the Christians.

At what point do we admit that we really have a problem in this country regarding the freedom of religion?

I just looked up The Oracle website, and am going in to see what it's all about. My hunch is that she may make a good Toadfish.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The tyranny of the majority, sadly until whomever voted this down is more open minded things will remain so.

[Opsa]

It is somewhat encouraging however, that projects like these pop up in spite of the status quo.

[Griffin NoName]

The tyranny of the majority....

It's hard to believe the majority have such opinions. I am continually struck by how different it is here in the UK.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Again, I would bet if you traced the opposition, it comes back to $$ in someone's pocket-- or the lack thereof.

Selfish, once more--

-- the more I deal and read with the Christian [never]Right, the more I realize that their #1 motivation is greed, followed by selfishness.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I was having some untaddy thoughts on the subject, something like forcing the fundies to live as their book says, specifically, give away EVERYTHING THEY OWN to the poor. Strictly "voluntary", provided that if the fundie wants to keep his/her stuff (s)he will have to make a public statement in front of the rest of the members saying that in good conscience (s)he can't call him/herself Xtian and that (s)he renounces to tell anybody else how to live up to a standard (s)he can't commit to him/herself.

Wouldn't that be nice?

[Griffin NoName]

I was having some untaddy thoughts on the subject, something like forcing the fundies to live as their book says,

I don't think that's untaddy. After all, it is tolerant, allowing them their belief system 

[Swatopluk]

The liberals have erased/suppressed the verses where it clearly says that the LORD has made Mammon his earthly deputee.
Alternatively the bible editions available to commoners are not actually the true thing but a ruse while the true bible is only for the true believers. (I heard Kristians(TM) say that about the Quran: Don't get fooled by the Quran editions available to unbelievers. Those leave out the true satanic stuff in order to fool those not in the know).

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

The liberals have erased/suppressed the verses where it clearly says that the LORD has made Mammon his earthly deputee.
Alternatively the bible editions available to commoners are not actually the true thing but a ruse while the true bible is only for the true believers. (I heard Kristians(TM) say that about the Quran: Don't get fooled by the Quran editions available to unbelievers. Those leave out the true satanic stuff in order to fool those not in the know).

Yeah, I've heard that one also (satanic).

The worst "arguments" I've encountered, vis a vis the bible stem from me, quoting parts of it to them and asking them to explain why these parts appear so very horrid and monstrous.

Their "arguments" consist of, "well you just have to have the right understanding, here".... to which I reply, "what?"

Either this book is clear and unambiguous?  Or it is not actually inspired from any caring god at all.  

What caring parent, would leave garbled messages for her children in the refrigerator?  None that really loved their children, at the very least.

If mere mortal human parents can accomplish this small thing, should we not expect better from a god who cares?

I think we can expect that.

So, I always asked "what", but alas, that was usually when they [the fundies] rabbited...

[Opsa]

It is astonishing to me that there are so many fundies that they would be considered a majority. To me that shows how easy it is to scare people. Scare them with the threat of hell, scare them with the threat of rejection and worse- making pariahs out of them for not swallowing the dogma. I think these people are scared. It's actually pretty sad.

Now, don't get the impression that everyone in The States is like that. There is a big bunch of them here, but it's a big country. The intellectuals here are not at all like that, and those are the people we tend to hang with- people interested in the arts and such. Sure, they call us snobs or queers or whatever, but we don't care. Plus, we're too polite to call them snobs back- which is what they are for trying to make us look like demons just because we don't attend their churches. There are enough of us around to hold our own.

What is so bothersome is that fundies are always flag-wavers, but they don't seem to recall anything about freedom of religion in this country. It is one of the tenets on which the United States was founded. So they are being anti-American when they imply that everyone should be Xian. Fundamentalism is anti-American!

The person that is trying to build this retreat has good intentions, but if you read her stuff, it is Pagan. C'mon- "so mote it be" is a Pagan catch-phrase. A pentagram? That's what has these people all riled up. I believe that in a perfect world she shouldn't have to tone down her witchiness, but these people truly believe that it's devil worship until they can let their guard down and see that it is not. And they will not let their guard down because they are so afraid of the devil trying to trick them. CAUTION UNTADDINESS AHEAD: If their religion allowed them to use their minds more often they might feel mentally stronger.

She probably should have tried another approach. Of course she legally has the right to practicing her spirituality however she likes, but those fundies can be whacked-out dangerous and she needs to be more aware of the situation.

[pieces o nine]

What caring parent, would leave garbled messages for her children in the refrigerator?  None that really loved their children, at the very least.

If mere mortal human parents can accomplish this small thing, should we not expect better from a god who cares?

Yes, we can, and we are, apparently, supposed to expect it:

Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Well, maybe it's not what you expect, but what you inspect.  


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

She probably should have tried another approach. Of course she legally has the right to practicing her spirituality however she likes, but those fundies can be whacked-out dangerous and she needs to be more aware of the situation.

I went to a few public Pagan outings in Denver, and rather enjoyed them: except for the fundies circling the perimeter, carefully writing down license plates and photographing those they assumed were participants.  
I always wondered what I would do if the one set of cousins and I unexpectedly encountered each other. I know about them, but they do *not* know about me.

It is unfortunate that the lady in the article is encountering so much ignorant -- and illegal! -- opposition, but I am not very much surprised. I've followed a few news stories of non-Christians who met opposition for far less than a proposed PAGAN TEMPLE!!!1ONE1ZAOMG that included threats, actual violence, property break-ins, vandalism, cruelly killed pets, etc., and the local (Christian) law enforcement did *nothing* to help them. Sadly, she needs to be very careful from here out, as we are not in a very enlightened political cycle.

[Opsa]

That is really horrible. Ya gotta wonder what's Christian about those sort of violent outbursts. I don't think those people really apply the good lessons available to them. They hear them, they read them, but are they actually using them in their lives?

[pieces o nine]

Sadly, their behavior is completely rational from their mindset.

They have inherited the worst of the OT 'chosen people' syndrome, coupled with the strange (to me, not to them) conviction that Jesus will love them more -- and be impressed! -- if he comes back to find that they have *already* set his kingdom up for him. There is an inherent hierarchical, arbitrary, authoritarian discipline: if one kid in the class talks, the entire class gets detention; if one prisoner escapes, the entire POW camp is brutally punished; if one unbeliever is permitted freedom of conscience, the entire city will be righteously destroyed with fire and brimstone.

To that end, they can not allow any ideology except their own, any textual interpretations except their own, any 'morality' except their own, any social order except their own.  It seems to cause these people an *extreme* amount of anxiety to meet with someone who does not share their beliefs and is perfectly happy not doing so: it is perceived as a personal affront, amping up fear that 'tolerance' of others is identical to personal apostasy.

Sadly, these people can readily see such mindsets as [insane] and based on fallacy if it originates in any culture other than their own. But they are, for the most part, completely incapable of perceiving it within themselves and their fellows.

[Opsa]

... if one unbeliever is permitted freedom of conscience, the entire city will be righteously destroyed with fire and brimstone.

To that end, they can not allow any ideology except their own, any textual interpretations except their own, any 'morality' except their own, any social order except their own.  It seems to cause these people an *extreme* amount of anxiety to meet with someone who does not share their beliefs and is perfectly happy not doing so: it is perceived as a personal affront, amping up fear that 'tolerance' of others is identical to personal apostasy.

Wow, I've never thought of it that way before. I feel sorry for them in a way. Life must be scary as hell for them.*

I wonder why it is that some people who are raised in that sort of environment manage to break loose from that mindset (at the threat of eternal damnation for everyone)?

* I've heard that they equate life with hell, actually. This seems tremendously tragic, as there is so much wonder in life. I thought life was supposed to be a gift from God. What are they saying, then- that it's a tacky gift? Is that any way to show gratitude?

[pieces o nine]

^ Yes, life is a Gift From God™, and that is why it must be ... Protected!!!!! ... from the very instant of conception (as the result of procreation -- pursued only as a Duty to God -- within a Church-sanctioned marriage).  Of course, one that zygote is born, it's every man, woman, and child for [him]self because this is a "sad, sick world" and some of the more devout, troubled members of these congregations just cannot wait for Jesus to come back and Rapture them out of this demon-infested hell-hole.

That's a summary of what I've learned from a lifetime of interaction with various members of these groups. Those who escape from them must overcome serious brainwashing, and find deep reserves of intellect and courage to resist the emotional blackmail from family and friends "left behind", if you will.

It *is* sad.

And it is disturbing that these groups are hiding behind their more mainstream peers to methodically attempt control of school boards and local, state, and federal posts in order to bring their apocalyptic visions to life, preferably within their own lifetimes.