Attn, Admins

[Zan]

Please delete my account.

I have no intention of being a 2d class citizen anywhere.

[Opsa]

What's up?

[Zan]

What's up?

The person that invited us here has explained that there are two castes, and what the requirements for those castes are.  Bear in mind that we were invited from another board, one in which we regularly explore other boards, primarily in the hope of finding new friends to hang out with online, and to invite to our board (sort of a cross-pollinization thing, to help encourage creativity, etc, in all affected areas).

Since we apparently do not meet the criteria to be elevated from lower caste, I can only assume that we are deficient in some way.  I find that to be monstrously insulting, and the very concept of a caste system to be totally not in keeping with the idea of a board based on "humility"...unless that "humility" applies to the lower class peons only.

I do not feel that I can contribute to a board with such policies, particularly seeing as they are not objective standards.  As such, I have removed my content from the board, and will be leaving now, quietly and without any carrying on.

I wish you well with your board.

[Zan]

Incidentally, I am of course only speaking for myself, and not Jayna. 

[Pachyderm]

We have castes? Toadfish and pirates?

[Zan]

We have castes? Toadfish and pirates?

Apparently, Siblings that can see the whole board, and everyone else that can only see part of the board.

I really kind of wish Tau would get around to killing this account, though.  I don't like leaving active accounts laying around.

Also, if anyone wants to visit us, we're here:  http://principiadiscordia.com  and click on forums.

[Pachyderm]

It's not meant as being a 2nd class citizen, more as a "get to know each other" period, to ensure both sides are happy with each other, before Siblinghood.

But if that's the way you saw it, I'm sorry.

[Zan]

It's not meant as being a 2nd class citizen, more as a "get to know each other" period, to ensure both sides are happy with each other, before Siblinghood.

But if that's the way you saw it, I'm sorry.

So am I.  Feel free to drop by sometime.  Goodbye.

(Tau, please kill this account.  I'd appreciate it.)

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Zan

We do indeed have a more private area and as Pachy explained it isn't in any form intended as a chaste system. Given that what we call Open Water level is visible to anyone we have an area in which we can discuss personal matters that we would not feel comfortable discussing in an open public forum. As Pachy also correctly pointed out, there is a period of time to know the character of a member to get to that area, and for obvious reasons induction can't be immediate.

Obviously if you already decided that you don't want to be part of our community there is very little we can do about it, but you can be assured that you have never been considered a 'second class citizen' in any form or way from us.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

It's not meant as being a 2nd class citizen, more as a "get to know each other" period, to ensure both sides are happy with each other, before Siblinghood.

But if that's the way you saw it, I'm sorry.

So am I.  Feel free to drop by sometime.  Goodbye.

(Tau, please kill this account.  I'd appreciate it.)

Oh, well....

Sorry you feel that way, mate.

I, for one, found you to be a stimulant to the old place-- livened it up a bit. 

Sorry to see you leave so soon...

[Jayna]

I don't know anything firsthand but I've been given to understand that both Zan and I have been more or less "blackballed" from the hidden areas by the person who invited us here in the first place. I feel really uncomfortable with that. I'm not sure if I'm going to stick around or not.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

That would be an assumption he has incorrectly made. I have done no such thing and frankly Zan, you're twisting my words. I obviously didn't explain it well, you didn't like what you heard, and then you looked for a confirmation of your biases when you came here.

You found them. Congratulations.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Jayna

Not you nor Zan have been "blackballed" from anything. Perhaps an explanation of our way of doing things is in order.

We have three basic levels in the Monastery which essentially show a level of involvement in the community more than anything else.

- The Open Water Level (or OWL), which is visible to anyone who wanders into our site, and which allows anyone who registers to post in it. As an open venue it means that in the same form we get thoughtful individuals registering (as you so far) we also get our share of spammers and trolls.

- The Novitiate which implies that a poster has spent some time in our OWL and agrees to our basic rules and goals of humility and respect to others.

- And Full Siblinghood which basically is what so far has happened to all Novices who remained active in our community.

Both Novices and Siblings discuss more personal matters in those areas, which is the goal because rather than being a faceless community we do have a more personal involvement that goes beyond an avatar and a username. Some of us have had the pleasure of Real Life contact among our siblings, and we value the closeness that we have among ourselves.

That by no means imply that we don't want a larger community, we have bonds of friendship among ourselves and we want to welcome as many friends as we can, but as I'm sure you already know, true friendship isn't something immediate, it takes time and trust and all we ask is precisely that, time and trust.

If you have any concerns feel free to PM me or post in this thread.

Zono

[Aggie]

I don't know anything firsthand but I've been given to understand that both Zan and I have been more or less "blackballed" from the hidden areas by the person who invited us here in the first place. I feel really uncomfortable with that. I'm not sure if I'm going to stick around or not.

Not at all.  Nobody gets into the Tide Pool (Toadfish Novicehood) immediately on arrival.  We are loosely modeled on progression through monastery life, and the Novice period is in itself a trial period for full Toadfish status, so there are TWO hidden areas, if you like*.  This goes back to the origins of the Toadfish Monastery, which was a private (but not secret) area on a larger forum.

The entry process is entirely democratic; potential novices are proposed by anyone who cares to make a proposal, then discussed at length if necessary to see if there are any potential objections, then it's put to a poll.  If any Sibling objects, either the grievance is sorted out or the potential novice is put aside for the time being.  Abstentions are allowed, and do not count against the potential novice.  After the polling is complete, an invitation is sent to the potential novice, and they agree to accept the Vows (humility, respect, tolerance and all that), and they are allowed into the Tide Pool.  The polling isn't meant to keep membership at any level exclusive, but it is intended to make sure that everyone is comfortable with every new admission having access to areas where more personal matters may have been discussed; some people (myself included) really are not comfortable getting into personal details in an open access area, even under somewhat anonymous conditions.
I'm not sure if it's ever been explained to that detail in public; maybe they will delete my account instead for revealing secrets?   


To be perfectly honest? I would personally say neither you nor Zan have been around long enough for consideration as novices.  It doesn't have anything to do whatsoever with how you are regarded at this point; part of admission involves simply showing you are planning to stick around and enjoy our company (months of Open Water participation, while not mandatory, are typical).  Some users (including some very dear friends) are never considered for novicehood simply because they never participate in serious discussion threads and only stay in Games or Pirates (which doesn't apply to either you or Zan). Likewise, some novices never progress any further because they aren't active in the Tide Pool.  This doesn't make them second-class citizens or lessen their value as forum members.

The whole progression is meant to be a bit of a shared self-discovery process, to allow oneself time to work on developing the type of discourse that we mutually value around here.  Sometimes it can mean reinterpreting the forum experience, compared to other places on the interwebz - this is entirely intentional as the Monastery really is intended as a refuge from the average forum.  I recall that way back when I first was invited to the old forum Monastery, I took a voluntary vow of silence (unusual and unecessary) on admission, to only post when I felt it was necessary, that I had something to contribute, and if I had stopped to think about what I was posting and why.  I felt like I wanted to do this because I was often combative or reactionary on the 'upper forum', as was the style and pace of the place at large.  I probably only kept to the letter of the vow for a month or two before I renounced it and relaxed a bit, but it did help me calm down a bit and contemplate more deeply on matters.  That's purely a personal anecdote, BTW, and should not be read as an innuendo, but it is kind of relevant to what the whole process is about.


Janya, for the record, I haven't seen Scrib say a word against either you or Zan in any part of the forum, so please do not think you are being discriminated against or purposely excluded from anything due to a single user**.  We are all big kids here with an explicit understanding that everyone is entitled to their own opinions; it's not the kind of place where people bully each other into not liking someone else.  Opinions are formed through observation of how a user conducts themselves in general, and nobody is struck down for a single mis-step.


All of the above is straight off-the-cuff from me personally, as I certainly don't unilaterally set policy or make the decisions around here (and neither does anybody else).  Hope it helps.

<sub>*I suppose there could be THREE areas as the Guardians (moderators) have a place to discuss mod-stuff, as is standard for forums (it's a pretty dead place as there's little modding necessary here). The majority of the users here have been 'blackballed' from that area, if that's how you care to view it. 

**well, it's technically possible in a poll, but Scrib obviously liked you both enough to invite you over...</sub>

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I don't know anything firsthand but I've been given to understand that both Zan and I have been more or less "blackballed" from the hidden areas by the person who invited us here in the first place. I feel really uncomfortable with that. I'm not sure if I'm going to stick around or not.

Not at all.  Nobody gets into the Tide Pool (Toadfish Novicehood) immediately on arrival.  We are loosely modeled on progression through monastery life, and the Novice period is in itself a trial period for full Toadfish status, so there are TWO hidden areas, if you like*.  This goes back to the origins of the Toadfish Monastery, which was a private (but not secret) area on a larger forum.

The entry process is entirely democratic; potential novices are proposed by anyone who cares to make a proposal, then discussed at length if necessary to see if there are any potential objections, then it's put to a poll.  If any Sibling objects, either the grievance is sorted out or the potential novice is put aside for the time being.  Abstentions are allowed, and do not count against the potential novice.  After the polling is complete, an invitation is sent to the potential novice, and they agree to accept the Vows (humility, respect, tolerance and all that), and they are allowed into the Tide Pool.  The polling isn't meant to keep membership at any level exclusive, but it is intended to make sure that everyone is comfortable with every new admission having access to areas where more personal matters may have been discussed; some people (myself included) really are not comfortable getting into personal details in an open access area, even under somewhat anonymous conditions.
I'm not sure if it's ever been explained to that detail in public; maybe they will delete my account instead for revealing secrets?   


To be perfectly honest? I would personally say neither you nor Zan have been around long enough for consideration as novices.  It doesn't have anything to do whatsoever with how you are regarded at this point; part of admission involves simply showing you are planning to stick around and enjoy our company (months of Open Water participation, while not mandatory, are typical).  Some users (including some very dear friends) are never considered for novicehood simply because they never participate in serious discussion threads and only stay in Games or Pirates (which doesn't apply to either you or Zan). Likewise, some novices never progress any further because they aren't active in the Tide Pool.  This doesn't make them second-class citizens or lessen their value as forum members.

The whole progression is meant to be a bit of a shared self-discovery process, to allow oneself time to work on developing the type of discourse that we mutually value around here.  Sometimes it can mean reinterpreting the forum experience, compared to other places on the interwebz - this is entirely intentional as the Monastery really is intended as a refuge from the average forum.  I recall that way back when I first was invited to the old forum Monastery, I took a voluntary vow of silence (unusual and unecessary) on admission, to only post when I felt it was necessary, that I had something to contribute, and if I had stopped to think about what I was posting and why.  I felt like I wanted to do this because I was often combative or reactionary on the 'upper forum', as was the style and pace of the place at large.  I probably only kept to the letter of the vow for a month or two before I renounced it and relaxed a bit, but it did help me calm down a bit and contemplate more deeply on matters.  That's purely a personal anecdote, BTW, and should not be read as an innuendo, but it is kind of relevant to what the whole process is about.


Janya, for the record, I haven't seen Scrib say a word against either you or Zan in any part of the forum, so please do not think you are being discriminated against or purposely excluded from anything due to a single user**.  We are all big kids here with an explicit understanding that everyone is entitled to their own opinions; it's not the kind of place where people bully each other into not liking someone else.  Opinions are formed through observation of how a user conducts themselves in general, and nobody is struck down for a single mis-step.


All of the above is straight off-the-cuff from me personally, as I certainly don't unilaterally set policy or make the decisions around here (and neither does anybody else).  Hope it helps.

<sub>*I suppose there could be THREE areas as the Guardians (moderators) have a place to discuss mod-stuff, as is standard for forums (it's a pretty dead place as there's little modding necessary here). The majority of the users here have been 'blackballed' from that area, if that's how you care to view it. 

**well, it's technically possible in a poll, but Scrib obviously liked you both enough to invite you over...</sub>

Very nice.

I highly recommend that some or all of your summary [above] is copied and pinned somewhere or other... it's very good.   Mods?  Anyone else concur?

[Aggie]

Thanks, but it would need the user-specific bits edited out, and I'm not sure it's so nice that I needed to see it twice (good thing forum-space is cheap).

[Opsa]

None of this has been been a secret. Actually, a brief explanation of this has been available in Open Water/Start Here since February of 2007, but it wasn't stickied to the top, so it fell onto page two. I have remedied this problem and hope it will now be more visible to those who want to know.

Here it is:
http://toadfishmonastery.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=32&topic=503.0

[Griffin NoName]

I hope Jayna stays around.

Neither of you have been black-balled here.

I think the sticky is sufficient.

Of course, it will be read by people interested and not by those who aren't.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Of course, it will be read by people interested and not by those who aren't.

Why Griff-- I do think you've been channeling DD, here.... directly to the heart.



_{(for some reason, I've been thinking about Dear Auntie... *sniff* )}

[Aggie]

_{(for some reason, I've been thinking about Dear Auntie... *sniff* )}

Her birthday is coming up, on the Day of the Dead / All Souls Day.  I guess she gets to have twice the party this year.

[Darlica]

We haz a DD day!

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Should we call it DD day or Smiting Day? 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

SMITING DAY SMITING DAY! 

[pieces o nine]

^ wot she sais!   

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Let there be...... a Smiting!

_{(how do you know she is a witch....? )}

[stellinacadente]

Boy! I really missed some heated fun here

[Opsa]

STELLI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Great to see you, pal!

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

How are you, Stelli!

[Opsa]

(Started DD Day thread here: http://toadfishmonastery.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=32&topic=2072.msg98763#new)

[Zan]

I hope Jayna stays around.

Neither of you have been black-balled here.

I think the sticky is sufficient.

Of course, it will be read by people interested and not by those who aren't.

Heh.  Would have been nice if it was sticky at the time.  But, by all means, feel free to imply that it was deliberately ignored.

You guys are one hellacious pile of hypocrites, aren't you?  "Humility" seems to come in two flavors, here:

1.  Noob:  Post like a snivelling worm, or get warnings for obscure, ignorant rules (like posting responses to individuals individually, which shows that "you think too much of yourself" <--- direct quote).

2.  Established members:  Threadjack the noobs at every opportunity, and - in your case - falsely and deliberately imply that posters have no interest in reading rules, because hey, it's sticky NOW, as opposed to when it WOULD have been read.

Humble, my bum-bum.

Well, anyway, enjoy your (very) small, "humble", and ever-so-exclusive board.  I wish you nothing but the best, and I'd really like Tau to erase this account, so that we can all forget this unpleasantness ever happened.

[Darlica]

Heh.  Would have been nice if it was sticky at the time.  But, by all means, feel free to imply that it was deliberately ignored.

You guys are one hellacious pile of hypocrites, aren't you?  "Humility" seems to come in two flavors, here:

1.  Noob:  Post like a snivelling worm, or get warnings for obscure, ignorant rules (like posting responses to individuals individually, which shows that "you think too much of yourself" <--- direct quote).

2.  Established members:  Threadjack the noobs at every opportunity, and - in your case - falsely and deliberately imply that posters have no interest in reading rules, because hey, it's sticky NOW, as opposed to when it WOULD have been read.

Humble, my ass.

Well, anyway, enjoy your (very) small, "humble", and ever-so-exclusive board.  I wish you nothing but the best, and I'd really like Tau to erase this account, so that we can all forget this unpleasantness ever happened.

I'm no Admin but a Moderator, here are your final answers to these questions:

1) Double posting is frowned upon at most forums, we are by no means unique when we ask our members to refrain from doing so. There are tools for using quotes from several posters within one post, other members here are fully able to use those functions and therefore we don't see why you would be an exception.   
"snivelling worm" really? Well, you are entitled to your opinion, we beg to disagree and that was why you left. Isn't that so?

2) If you had read a little more here at the forum you would have seen that "tread jacking" or "thread drift" is very common and it is by no means something that are done to new posters on purpose. But if one feels that the thread has gone too far out of line the usual way to handle it is to say "to get back to the original topic" and then get on with what ever the original topic is. Or one could PM a mod and ask for a thread split.

The non stickied thread was a glitch on our behalf and we happily admit that.
You can think we have treated you badly all you want, but we have never said the you aren't welcome here or that we would kick you out for some reason.



If you want your account erased you have to do it yourself, the function is listed on your profile page under Actions -it has been there all the time.


And for the record we do enjoy our board, thank you very much.


Darlica, Guardian Toadfish (moderator)

[Opsa]

Okelly-dokelly.


Zan is now deleted, at his insistance.

I am very sorry to have not stickied the protocol thread, which is my own stupid mistake, but at least he called the error to my attention so it could be fixed.  For that I am grateful to him.

I hope it goes better for him, wherever he goes.

Oops- double-posted with Darlica. Sorry- he may not have seen your post before he was removed.

[Lindorm]

The masochist: "Spank me! Slap me! Bite me! Punish me!"

The sadist: "NO!!!!"


 

[Opsa]

 

Whew- I'm glad I stopped being a sadist, then!

[Griffin NoName]

I hope Jayna stays around.

Neither of you have been black-balled here.

I think the sticky is sufficient.

Of course, it will be read by people interested and not by those who aren't.

Heh.  Would have been nice if it was sticky at the time.  But, by all means, feel free to imply that it was deliberately ignored.

For the benefit of Toadfish, it never occured to me that Zan would think my last comment was aimed at him as we had already discussed it all with him. My comment was futuristic, not anything to do with Zan at all but to anyone reading this thread. Should have made that clearer perhaps.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I'm actually not sure why he came back. Did someone PM him or something?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Perhaps he came back to share his perennial happiness... 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Maybe.

[Darlica]

For the benefit of Toadfish, it never occured to me that Zan would think my last comment was aimed at him as we had already discussed it all with him. My comment was futuristic, not anything to do with Zan at all but to anyone reading this thread. Should have made that clearer perhaps.

IMHO it doesn't matter what you, we, said or not, he had his mind set to misunderstand us, sadly enough I don't think anything could have changed that.

[Opsa]

Scrib- I had PM'd him a while back to say that we could delete him if he insisted, but that we don't normally do that. Normally, disinterested people just leave if this place isn't their cup of tea. He thought about it, insisted, and we obliged.

He was possibly operating under the assumption that everyone automatically becomes a novice at 50 posts with good behavior, and felt we had blocked him. He took offense at this, even though we had corrected him several times about the use foul language and double-posting. But I don't want to waste any more time here on the poor guy. I'm sure he's a good fit elsewhere.

Maybe I need to make it clearer in the levels thread that it is not a matter of doing A, B and C in the right order that puts a person into novicehood, it's a matter of a trusted sibling noticing their character and suggesting them. No-one had blocked him, but no-one had yet suggetsed him either. This is not unusual. Sometimes people have hundreds of posts before someone suggests them. (We can be pretty slow!) Some under 50 posts, but if those posts are very thoughtful, tolerant and kind- that's what makes the difference. Verbosity is not necessarily the key.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

"...at 50 posts with good behavior, ..."

Well..... that's a bit'o' sticky-wicket, yes?

While I found him stimulating, I don't think I'd want to invite him in for tea at my house, if you know what I mean-- he came across as a bit, well, too "in yer face" for my personal tastes.

But that alone ought not have barred him, if given enough time.

*sigh*

Reminds me of a customer, who wants a steak, and now, and yes with fries, and now! Now! NOW! 

Okay....one microwaved "steak" with some flash-fried "potatoes" coming up.....  *gag*

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I told him time was another element and told him like three times. He was looking for a confirmation of his biases and found them, that's really what this boils down to.

[nefyuBB]

Oy !

What have I missed here !
Meh... some people's toadfish ...tsk tsk ...kids these days, I never mouthed off to kindhearted types when I signed up for cabin boy back in thee 1600s .rrrrrr

[Darlica]

Welcome back BB!

Now get behind me as hose this zombie thread down with our special blend of holy water and Diazepam!

Tsk Tsk Tsk... Necromancy that's not a proper hobby for a young lad!





_{Edited for spelling}

[Opsa]

Glad to see you back, Nefyu! 

[Bruder Cuzzen]

Oh , I should be reading entire threads . Sorry Zan and Jayna , I'm still a bit rusty and rude .