The fate of limbo

[beagle]

It seems the fate of Limbo hangs in the balance...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5406552.stm

[The Black Spot]

Even when I was a child at a Catholic school I was never happy with the concept of limbo. It seemed like a fudge to get round awkward questions being raised about Original Sin.

This has always been a difficult subject for catholics to defend, but it's either limbo or hell for most of the human race. To be honest, I think the Pope will announce that this matter will be discussed in depth, and then everyone will hope it just goes away again.

[beagle]

The death of infants in particular has always struck me as an extraordinarily sensitive issue for all religions that don't believe in re-incarnation. Limbo has always struck me as a way of avoiding deciding whether the deceased were either very lucky (on the eternity time scale), popping-off before being able to sin), or very unlucky, popping off before being able to recant.

Bet Swatopluk knows the history of this to 5 decimal places .

[NeferKa the Bodhipasta]

I suppose because I do not believe in a concept of Original Sin, nor am I Catholic, this tome doesn't affect me directly. However, it seems to me that Limbo doesn't quite fit into the "God elects people for salvation" ideology that has permeated Christianity until the last 200 years.

Now as for the idea that un-baptized babies go to Limbo, is that just for the Catholic babies?

I also didn't know that Limbo is where the people that died before Jesus was go, according to Catholicism. (Protestants I've spoken to say they're in Hell...)

[beagle]

Despite being (nominally) raised Church of England Protestant I had absolutely no idea what their line is on this.
A swift Google reveals that Edward VI booted the idea of limbo into the long grass in the 16th Century by declaring it non-existent.
I don't think that the C of E are that keen on a traditional fiery Hell for anyone these days, let alone tots.
One interesting argument from the (possibly non-mainstream) ex-Bishop of Durham was that the elect couldn't be happy in Heaven knowing others were in Hell. Presumably if they could be happy under those circumstances, they wouldn't deserve to be in Heaven.

For all I know this may be up there with the Babel fish argument, in terms of theological soundness, but it has a certain logic.

[The Meromorph]

Could it be that extensive discussion for years is going to leave Limbo in Limbo?

[beagle]

The cynical answer (as mentioned in the articles) might be that limbo was taken out of limbo to level the playing field with other religions, especially when recruiting in countries with high infant mortality. In which case, doing nothing might not be an option.
Not sure I'm that cynical myself, given how far the Pope is prepared to be unpopular in other doctrinal areas.

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

The offical position of the Church on unbaptised infants isn't that they necessarily go to Hell; it's basically "we're not sure what happens, but we trust God to do the right thing.  Just to be safe, though, get your kids baptised as soon as you can" (I'm paraphrasing a little, of course).  If that's the status quo, then it may work better than the idea of Limbo... if the purpose of these changes is to make Catholicism "work" better in areas with high infant mortality.

[Teripie]

I was kind of torn on this poll. I've really gotten to old to Limbo any more. It's just not good for my back. I'm all for the younger folks keeping it up....if they're good at it. It's fun to watch. And the music is always fun.
(Limbo stick??? --> )


Everybody Limbo!

[Opsa]

How low can you go?

Not all the way to Hell, it seems.


If the Pope does away with purgatory, I'll sue! I have beachfront property there!

[Aphos]

If the Pope does away with purgatory, I'll sue! I have beachfront property there!

Yeah.  I was sort of counting on Purgatory, just in case my agnostic position turned out to be disasterously wrong.

[Griffin NoName]

I always admire the adaptation of faith to modern requirements and alteration of the leading figures postitions on belief and practice. One of my favourites is the Eruv, whereby Jews who observe the Sabbath law against carrying anything in a public place will, within the Eruv, be able to carry objects and push pushchairs and wheelchairs without worrying they are breaking Orthodox Jewish law. An Eruv is made by connecting up poles - for example street light poles, with wire in such a way that they completely surround the area where observant Jews want to carry. The area thus counts as "home" (all the dwellings within become "private") wherein these activities are allowed.

I don't have a clue what happens to baby boys who die before circumcision. Would they go somewhere different to baby girls? But then circumcision is prescribed on the eighth day of life so I guess it might only be a problem if they died during circumcision. (sorry, distasteful). I suspect they go the same place everyone else does. Dust to dust. Except I've never seen any proof that we start out as dust.

If the religious believe in G-d and it was G-d that told them about limbo, how can it be questioned? 

(I have the same issue with all "interpretations" - I like the clear cut stuff - do not kill thy neighbour's ass - if we were meant to understand and obey why make it so obscure it needs centuries of de-coding?).

[Sibling Chatty]

I've never heard of a Christian group that says that people that lived before Christ would go to Hell...

Of course, i'm more of a product of Southern Evangelical teachings, and that tradition is MUCH less stringent than that of most of the Northern US's Evangelical tradition.

I was raised in a religious tradition that stated that nobody else was entitled to say WHO was going to Hell, as it is none of your business what others do or don't do...sort of a "take care of YOU, God will sort it all out, and YOU ain't God, honey!"

[beagle]

Looks like the wait goes on...

http://tinyurl.com/m3ojr

[Al Dante]

I've never heard of a Christian group that says that people that lived before Christ would go to Hell...

With an AKA like Al Dante, I should know about all this stuff. (I'm not saying I do. Just that I should.) So, let me enlighten you...

Many Christian traditions hold that everyone who lived and died before Christ went to hell (although the righeous, in some traditions, went into a less punitive subdivision of hell sometimes called "the Limbo of the Patriarchs" -- which may or may not be different from the limbo for unbaptized infants that the Pope is talking about. In any event, the Limbo of the Patriarchs is now empty, so it doesn't really matter whether the Pope abolishes it or not.)

Why is that part of hell now empty, you ask? Well, when Christ died, and rose on the third day, what did He do with all that spare time? I bet you thought He spent it at His analyst's (or his chiropractor's) office working through his cruci-fixation, right? But no. Apparently He spent that time going to hell to rescue the righeous and bring them to heaven. This event is called "the harrowing of hell," and in some versions it's been embellished into a heroic epic of sorts, where Christ had to fight all kinds of Gandalf-Balrog-style battles to free hell's captives. The tradotion of the harrowing of hell is reflected in some versions of the Apostle's Creed:

...Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father...

This ingenious tradition not only explains the time delay for the resurrection on the third day, and what happened to the righeous before Christ, but it also gives millions of kids a rare opportunity to say "hell" in church.

However, some versions translate the line as "He descended to the dead" which is apparently just as reasonable a translation. And some denominations -- including the United Methodists -- omit the line entirely.

Actual Biblical justification for the tradition is, as one might imagine, rather sparse. IIRC, there's a line here and there about Christ "leading the captives" and another about His "triumphal procession" and things like that which have been interpreted to refer to the harrowing of hell.

- infernAL
(Ooops, I said I wasn't going to do that here...)
- Allenbatrachus