Toadfish Thought of the Day

[Opsa]

I don't care how many times you double-post, I still don't want you to leave.

I don't want anyone to feel like they have to be in step here, anyway. I'm a piss-poor marcher. They'd just show me up.

[Sibling Chatty]

I do not fit.

My desire for peace in a place of tolerance is evidently against the grain, I am the one that is the problem here, I will fade out. I'm just too...stupid to do it quietly like some other people.

Life will go on.

It's not an either/or thing, I know that. It's my inability to understand.

[Sibling Lambicus the Toluous]

Ack.  Nobody leave, please.  There's a place here for all of you.


FWIW, almost exactly two years ago today, my Mom, sister and I were facing the decision of whether to end the care that my father was receiving and have him die quickly, or artificially sustain his bodily functions long enough for them to be ended by his lymphoma within a few weeks.

I hate all cancer generally.  Specifically, I hate the cancers that killed people close to me, and I hate the cancers that have made people close to me suffer (including yours, Chatty).

Even with this in the back of my mind (which tends to be in the back of my mind quite often at Christmastime now), all I personally took from Mero's quote is that the "argument from design" for the existence of God works just as well for complex, bad things as it does for complex, good things.

Seeing how I think the argument from design is a rather poor argument anyhow, I think that really, this just means that it applies equally badly to both cases.

Really, I think it points out the folly of those who would try to use logical chicanery and sleight-of-hand to convince people that their point of view must be the only acceptable one.  The fact that it's theistic chicanery being highlighted doesn't mean that atheistic chicanery doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean that all theists engage in logical chicanery.

To me, it's saying to the evangelist, "you want to use this logic to convert others?  Okay... let's see where it leads.  If you're not comfortable with the result, then maybe you should abandon this line of reasoning and leave the atheists to believe what they want."  In that spirit, I think it resonates somewhat with Toadfish sensibilities.

At least, that's how I took it.

[Sibling Qwertyuiopasd]

The why doesn't really matter to anyone but YOU.

As a unitarian (not to speak for all UUs, but for me, anyway) I don't care what you believe, only what you do, really.

If you brainwash children any way, that's not good. If you actively discrimminate against someone else based on gender/religion/the usual, that's not good.

However, everyone here is a good person in my book, so whatever makes you that way... I don't care. Sure it's interesting to know, and there can be some multi-cultural learnign experiences, but It's in your mind, and can't get to me, and doesn't say anything about what you ARE going to do.

I may be a bit off the mark, but whatever.

People get so uptight about insulting people. Just calm down, say what you want to say, and understand that you don't mean malice, and if anyone thinks you do, that can easily be corrected.

Oi. and mero was just leaving this thread, if I'm not mistaken. I don't blame him.

~Qwerty

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Chatty, please don't get worked up. These things happen from time to time, and we can work through them. I've already mentioned that I think that if we talk about it, it'll work itself out. Please give us a chance to work it out. We love you too much to willingly loose you.

[Sibling Chatty]

If my inability to deal with a quotation that is, in my opinion, in the wrong place, outdated and, across the board, an EXACT repudiation (leaving no avenues of discussion other than "I think Ingersoll sucks" or else I'm still wrong) of the principles of tolerance that we espouse--if I am the problem, then I am out of step.

The FIRST response to Mero's posting was mine. And I said WHAT??

Remind me to track him down and kick his butt...

I unnerstan' it, but I don' gotta like it...

A joke...I know Ingersoll's era. And a semi-joke. I understand the thesis of the piece, but the actual topic is not among my top 10,000 or so favorites.

And then I went on...

Now, as to an attack an my beliefs??

Who the hell said that was the problem? No, what I am having problems with is...actually irrelevant.

If I'm gonna spend my time here trying to avoid upsetting people, why am I here? And that's what's happening, I am having to defend my NOT being that damn defensive about something, just being unimpressed with the thing.

When it invokes the words "I'm outta here" and the phrase "cool down" then I'm definitely the one that needs to be gone. Unless you grew up in a dysfunctional, abusive situation, you won't know why those are scary words, but they are.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

They can be scary words, indeed.


Chatty, I still don't think this is reason enough to leave.

[Sibling Chatty]

http://www.alternet.org/story/70342/

I can't afford the stress, the energy or the anxiety.

Those beautiful cells are kicking my butt. They don't need help.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I'm still not sure if I totally understand what caused this whole issue.
And I didn't know you were THAT stressed about it.

If you're reallllllllly sure you want to leave, that of course is your prerogative. We'll miss you, but the choice is yours.

[Sibling Chatty]

It seems that I am the cause of the problem.

If I can't manage my illness without being an irritant here, then I am the one that needs to NOT be an irritant.

Obviously, Mero's irritated. At me. That is what the post says to me.
By extrapolating to the end of the 'same old' argument that I forsaw, even though I had pretty much say "Yes, I see what he's saying", I was irritating. By questioning in any way his 16 years ago story that he told, I was irritating.

I don't have the energy. I just don't. Hell, I'm too stupid to remember to turn off e-mail notifications, so it's time to back away.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Chatty, I really think that this is simply one of those moments that will pass soon enough. I've always thought that you were one of the core members of our Siblinghood, and I don't think that loosing you over this makes sense.
One irritation, one time. After, what, two years of siblinghood? It happens, you know?

But, as I said, its your choice.

[Sibling Chatty]

If someone wants to explain to me what I could have done differently...

I have an illness that is horrid, devastating, and quite honestly, actively killing me right now.

In an area where we're 'at home' with one another, I respond as honestly as possible to a short article that literally filled me with loathing and dread.

My responses are inadequate. They cause a problem. I'm 55 years old, and I have not outgrown the need to clear the air if I can and then get the hell out. If I can't clear the air, I can at least get the hell out.

And it seems I can't clear the air.
-------------------

Still waiting.

Someone tell me, please. What do I do differently? I responded to the thing, trying to use humor, trying to NOT be unkind or needlessly, abruptly cruel, and here I am again, at fault for being what I am.

[Bluenose]

Now I'm getting really confused.  I did not think anything you said, Chatty, was over the top or offensive.  In fact your comments made me think about that quote in a way that I had not done so before.  Of course given what cancer is doing to you now you are sensitive to the use of it in that manner and I do not blame you one bit if it upsets you.

OTOH, I don't think you did anything to hurt anyone, I thought Mero was bailing out of this thread because he did not want to cause what he saw as more offense to others, probably you.

It is like we are all trying to avoid offending each other and saying "mea culpa", but if we go on like this soon there will be none of us.

I feel it is time to revert to the default condition of assuming no malice and realising that we can all get it back to front at times.  Let us not hit ourselves over the head with a wet noodle to avoid giving offense to others when none is intended nor is it taken.

[ivor]

I don't think you should have done anything differently.  I wouldn't worry about it. 

The statement Ingersoll made was callous and it got a well deserved callous response.  I thought it was an interesting point of view, bizarre but interesting.

We aren't all perfectly tolerant.  If perfect tolerance was a requirement none of us could be here as we are all human.  We're just practicing tolerance the way doctors practice medicine I think.  If doctors were required to perform perfect practice there would be no doctors.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

And Chatty, lets assume (and it isn't a clear assumption, he was surprised by the general response to the quote) for a second that Mero is irritated at you. I am not irritated and it is fair to say that the majority of us aren't irritated at your posts.

More so, if someone is irritated it is perfectly normal, this isn't utopia and we are no angels, and we are here to learn how to live with each other, and -as with marriage- irritations need to be voiced to fix what needs to be fixed.