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Started by Swatopluk, July 07, 2010, 09:22:30 AM

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Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)

Next you'll be telling us that Richelieu and the man in the iron mask were real...

...wait, they actually were... ;)
Sibling Zono(trichia Capensis) aka anon1mat0 aka Nicolás.

PPPP: Politicians are Parasitic, Predatory and Perverse.

Swatopluk

Apart from the iron part, of course.
On the other hand, since the nobility was used to wear closed helmets, it would not have been that abnormal ;)
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.

Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)

Full on battle armor was in disuse at that time (plus very expensive).
Sibling Zono(trichia Capensis) aka anon1mat0 aka Nicolás.

PPPP: Politicians are Parasitic, Predatory and Perverse.

Swatopluk

Infantry had dropped most but not all of it at the time (we are still during the 30 Years War in the first novel). Heavy cavalry still kept the breastplate (even thicker then than earlier*) and some units still used helmets with visors. And for parades even full medieval type armor was still en vogue. Cuirassiers had front armor as part of their parade uniform up to WW1.

*they had to get tested against pistol shot under controlled conditions to get certified (and had to show the dent proving it)
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.

Griffin NoName

I have never understood how they moved about dressed in such weight.
Psychic Hotline Host

One approaches the journey's end. But the end is a goal, not a catastrophe. George Sand


Swatopluk

The trick is to not have it rest on just the shoulders but also the hips. Armor had to get fitted to the person or it became nigh impossible to use.
Rather ask how the horse managed it. Disappearence of heavy armor, esp. horse armor had almost as much to do with the lack of suitable affordable horses as with improvements in firepower. A first class warhorse can be likened in price to a main battle tank of today. When Shakespeare writes 'they sell the pasture now to buy the horse' it was not an exaggeration.
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.

Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith

Quote from: Swatopluk on October 10, 2013, 07:47:52 PM
The trick is to not have it rest on just the shoulders but also the hips. Armor had to get fitted to the person or it became nigh impossible to use.
Rather ask how the horse managed it. Disappearence of heavy armor, esp. horse armor had almost as much to do with the lack of suitable affordable horses as with improvements in firepower. A first class warhorse can be likened in price to a main battle tank of today. When Shakespeare writes 'they sell the pasture now to buy the horse' it was not an exaggeration.

Yes, I have read that a fully trained knight's horse was worth as much as a small castle, and certainly worth more than any random group of peasants (to the elite). 

As you say, a horse capable of carrying a fully armored knight, plus gear, and moving at a reasonable fighting pace?  Armoring the horse in all but a token way was next to impossible.

Not to say it wasn't done, though.   Someone once told me the Budweiser Clydesdale breed is descended from such animals-- I've never bothered to confirm or refute the claim.  But I would not be surprised, if it was true.
Sometimes, the real journey can only be taken by making a mistake.

my webpage-- alas, Cox deleted it--dead link... oh well ::)

Swatopluk

Like a modern tank, horses got armored primarily at the front. They remained extremly vulnerable to steep angle shots (like the first salvos at Agincourt) and attacks form the side or behind. And the infantry acquired special tools to go for the legs. No surprise that the English found men-at-arms tactics (most of the knights dismounted) to be more suitable than the charge (as on the continent).
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.

Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith

That makes perfect sense, Swato. 

I have also read that the mounted knights typically had a group of men who's function was to shield the knight's horse, and with training, would part just in time for the charge.   Shield bearers.   
Sometimes, the real journey can only be taken by making a mistake.

my webpage-- alas, Cox deleted it--dead link... oh well ::)

Griffin NoName

Quote from: Swatopluk on October 13, 2013, 09:30:06 AM
Like a modern tank, horses got armored primarily at the front.

Yeah, like a modern tank, I am armoured at the front. Though I do have a small amount of fat at the sides too.  ::)
Psychic Hotline Host

One approaches the journey's end. But the end is a goal, not a catastrophe. George Sand


Swatopluk

Crossbowmen and early musketeers also often had a servant carrying a large shield, a Pavise, for them, so they could reload while being protected. Attempts were made in WW1 to revive that (Grabenschild) but the idea had to be abndoned because it turned out to be impossible to produce portable versions that could withstand bullets from heavy sniper rifles (hey, anti tank rifles were still in use in WW2 and imo the Russians still have them).
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.

Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith

Did you know that the venerable "Ma Duce", the M2, the .50 cal Browning machine gun was first created as an anti-tank weapon? 

It's true-- it was made with sufficient penetration power to go after the earliest of tanks, which had (by modern standards) pretty much no armor; barely sufficient to stop the light rounds as fired by infantry of that day. 

But Browning was a genius at firearms design, and the M2 was just one of those designs that worked "right out of the box", without needing extensive reworking to make it a lasting design.   

Of course, the earliest designs of fully automatic guns included a water jacket for cooling-- an idea that permitted one famous British squad to keep theirs firing for days?  I forget the details--but certainly continuous fire for many-many hours. 

However, the Germans hammered home that portability was far more important, and so those heavy water jackets were discarded in favor of easy-to-change air-cooled barrels.

Alas, an unfortunate side-effect was that, during extreme situations*, the barrel changing didn't happen, but the need to keep shooting did-- and sometimes, a fatal failure happened instead, as the barrel literally heated up enough to fly apart under the stress--often killing the men who were depending on it. 

Other unpleasant side-effects of over-heated barrels:  "cooking off" of the ammunition, even though nobody was pressing the trigger, the gun kept firing anyway due to heat.

And of course, the most common one of all:  severe (sometimes debilitating) burns to the crew who were servicing these things.  Yes, there were supposed to be gloves... who has the gloves, again?  What?   Nevermind-- here... ***ooooowwwww****...

... meh.
* when, in war, is there not extreme situations?
Sometimes, the real journey can only be taken by making a mistake.

my webpage-- alas, Cox deleted it--dead link... oh well ::)

Swatopluk

A good way to spot camouflaged MG positions in WW1 was too look for clouds of steam. The content of the water jackets began to boil within a very short time when the MG fired.
As for the cooking off, that was one reason to look into open bolt designs despite the known disadvantages.
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.

Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith

Quote from: Swatopluk on October 14, 2013, 09:15:15 PM
A good way to spot camouflaged MG positions in WW1 was too look for clouds of steam. The content of the water jackets began to boil within a very short time when the MG fired.
As for the cooking off, that was one reason to look into open bolt designs despite the known disadvantages.

I did not know that-- but it makes perfect sense-- the boiling water is what is taking the heat away, after all.

Sometimes, the real journey can only be taken by making a mistake.

my webpage-- alas, Cox deleted it--dead link... oh well ::)

Swatopluk

At least the German models came with jerrycans, hoses and handpumps in order to circulate the water and to suppress the steam exhaust.

I wonder whether they used the hot water for coffee or tea too ;)

Btw, artillery used time-coordinated firing to fool sound triangulation. At the end of WW1 the system was already semiautomatic, no longer just guys with stopwatches and headphones connected to different microphones installed a long distance apart but with synchronized sonogram plotters*. From the surviving sonogram plots it is possible to spot the moment of Ceasefire by the second. The wild zigzag abruptly stops and there are only very few visible violations afterwards that stick out like sore thumbs from the baseline.

*precise enough to identify different models of artillery pieces
Knurrhähne sind eßbar aber empfehlen würde ich das nicht unbedingt.
The aspitriglos is edible though I do not actually recommend it.