Dabbling in Vegetarianism (& other alt-food fun!)

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Now I just can hope the Dutch guys that made a burger from muscle stem cells* figure a way to make volume in a reasonably economical way so that I can keep cooking beef without killing cows....

*I know it will take decades but I for one welcome the development.

[Opsa]

Step away from the PINK SLIME.....!

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Pink Slime is a totally different thing, it's what is reclaimed from the meat processing and highly treated to remove bacterial contamination.

[Opsa]

I did know that. I was just sayin'...

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The idea of eating beef cultivated in a vat is shocking for many people, personally I find it ironic and hypocritical considering what happens to the animals. I'm pragmatic enough to consider cultivated beef (or chicken, or pork, or fish) as a better alternative to kill animals.

If killing animals is natural I rather be unnatural, at any rate.

[Swatopluk]

And few talk about the feelings of the veggies we eat as an alternative to meat.

[Opsa]

Carrots just don't scream as loud as piggies do.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I've read about experiments in which two plants of the same species are separated and one of them is burned in a different room while the other one is measured and it has been claimed that the second plant does have a response. IIRC the experiments haven't been fully vetted (I believe they even did it in Mythbusters once and they got results in one iteration and none in the other [ie non repeatable]).

It's hard to tell if plants feel something in a sense that relates to what we feel, considering that they don't have the nervous infrastructure.

As for foods, fruits are intended to be eaten in many cases, many grains naturally wither after flowering, and tubers and other plants can continue with just a fraction of the original plant.

Add to that the plants that require of extreme events -like fire- to reproduce effectively.

[Swatopluk]

Some plants can communicate and send out distress 'calls' in the shape of gaseous emanations. When a plant receives the signal, it begins to produce poison, in some cases within minutes. Many herbivores know that and 'work' against the wind. Would they go downwind, they'd soon find their targets inedible.

That is btw also the reason for 'a single rotten apple spoils the whole barrel' because the rotting process sends a similar signal to start it in the other fruits too.

[Griffin NoName]

Rotten rotting processes. My plants scream at me a lot.

[Aggie]

Everything dies (per the Bhagavad Gita, it's already dead).  I'm not personally as concerned with the fact of death of animals for meat as the conditions under which they lived.  I'm also not afraid to face my meat and eat something that I've met.  Killing animals for food saddens me, but I also find it connects me to the reality of life.  Growing vegetables does the same thing. I find meat on styrofoam and disembodied plant parts on supermarket shelves weirder than actually taking care of business myself. Domestic plants and animals (on a species level) have actually been much more successful than many of their wild counterparts, despite the fact that we slaughter or consume the majority before they have the chance to reproduce.

I'm certainly not dis-encouraging vegetarianism (heck, I started this thread), and hope to go a little more veggie than I currently am this winter. I've found for myself that it's not a very healthy lifestyle to take up full time, though. I struggle to keep weight on, and tend to lose muscle mass (I'm already approaching zero body fat) if I don't eat meat, even if I'm carefully stacking up on alternatives. An honest relationship with food animals is therefore important.  My farmer friends have recently acquired two piggies that I'll be helping to feed with misshapen pears from my yard, and I'll more than likely be buying some meat from them once they are ready for slaughter.  I've met the pigs; they are beautiful creatures and don't deserve death, but one day it will come to them regardless of whether they are used for food or not. Right now, they have a large, natural area to root around in, and look like they are loving life.

I'm highly skeptical that vat meat (although nervous-system free) will be much better for the environment than factory farming.  The nutrients required for cell culture will likely need heavy processing.  I won't be surprised if they end up raising animals to slaughter for processing into nutrient feedstocks for vat meat.

[Opsa]

It's really up to the individual what to eat or not to eat.

I have come to accept that animals may have the innate understanding that they are potential food for other beings. A Native American theory is that animals are more sophisticated than people in that they are so in tune with the universe that they are willing to give up life in order for other life to continue. Lovely idea.

I don't like to eat them, though, in part because they are physically so much like us. I distinctly do not like eating muscle and meat because I am muscle and meat. Their blood is just like mine. However, I do realize that I am pretty much a spaz and that many other humans do not mind those similarities a bit. And that's fine. Someone has to be weird, and it turns out it's me.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I'm not personally as concerned with the fact of death of animals for meat as the conditions under which they lived.  I'm also not afraid to face my meat and eat something that I've met.  Killing animals for food saddens me, but I also find it connects me to the reality of life.  Growing vegetables does the same thing. I find meat on styrofoam and disembodied plant parts on supermarket shelves weirder than actually taking care of business myself. Domestic plants and animals (on a species level) have actually been much more successful than many of their wild counterparts, despite the fact that we slaughter or consume the majority before they have the chance to reproduce.

The way I see things now is closer to necessity, that is, I don't need to eat animals to keep living, I'm not a hunter-gatherer needing to supplement the roots and nuts I collected, I don't have an iron deficiency (or propensity to it as my wife does) that will be better alleviated with animal tissue, in general terms, I don't have to eat flesh, therefore, if I know all the problems involved (factory farming, animal mistreatment/abuse/cruelty, ecological and resource management issues, etc) and I don't have a true need, why should I?

Yes, animal flesh is tasty, and under the right circumstances desirable, but at this point, those don't apply to me, plus the fact that I now feel much, much more the cruelty part of the equation, yes, a chicken is far less intelligent than my pet parrots, but it is as capable of suffering as them or myself, why would I want to be part of that?

Would I hunt if I were in the forest and had no access to other sources of food? Sure I would, but I'm not in the forest. Would I eat a deer if I accidentally kill it with a car? Absolutely, in fact I would almost feel that not doing so would be an incredible waste. Would I go to the forest to hunt the animal even if I will eat it afterwards having no need to do so? Absolutely not. 

I like to think it isn't a fundamentalist position, and considering that the overwhelming majority of people expects to eat animals I'm perfectly capable to indulge if no other easy options are at hand, but at this point, I will not seek doing so as much as I can.

[Aggie]

*rumble*

I think that's a very sensible position, Zono.

One challenge I'm not sure I'm completely ready to undertake, but would like to, is to completely swear off factory-farmed meat for regular meals. (The relationship that I have with food is such that when someone else cooks for me, I don't refuse things that I otherwise would not eat myself.) Right now, I'm using it as a convenience crutch, especially because I'm regularly bringing food over to my buddy's parents' house (where the shop is) when I work late.  Also, we get a free meal at work, which I take up in some form or another; often, I'll bring my own ingredients in, but when I'm busy I'll just eat what's there. Excuses...

I don't like to eat them, though, in part because they are physically so much like us. I distinctly do not like eating muscle and meat because I am muscle and meat. Their blood is just like mine. However, I do realize that I am pretty much a spaz and that many other humans do not mind those similarities a bit. And that's fine. Someone has to be weird, and it turns out it's me.

You're not weird, just a cultural minority. You wouldn't be in some parts of the world.

I was a major dinosaur nut when I was a little kid*, and saw my dad hunting when I was quite young, so I think I was steeped in the concept of predator/prey quite early. I remember meeting and feeding cows at my parent's friends house, and then eating them later with full disclosure.

^{*and therefore read enough on the subject to understand evolution at 6 years old or so}

[Opsa]

I like Zono's thoughts, too.

No-one really needs to defend how or what they eat, except maybe someone like Hannibal the Cannibal.

Like Zono, I do not need to eat meat. I have absolutely no problem keeping weight on.



People who do eat meat do not have to defend their position to me and I do not feel I have to defend mine to them. What difference does it make to others what I choose to consume? It is truly tedious to me to have people get all up in my grill trying to tell me why eating meat is natural and good. What is wrong with those people? It may be natural and good for them, but not for me. Do they really think they will change my mind? I've been ovo-lacto-pesce-veggie for nearly forty years and I have never pushed anyone's face in it, but I often have others question my choices and it is so annoying! I don't get it.

What can I tell them to make them back off?