Survey shows US Religious Tolerance

[beagle]

Whereas the mills of God tend to turn slowly in this area, New Labour is quite capable of assisting in a bit of rapid regime change.  If they can find a plane and Land Rover that aren't falling apart perhaps they'll send the SAS into Zimbabwe with a new black female leader to meet the quotas.  Winnie Mandela perhaps? Naomi Campbell?

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I thought MI6 took care of those cases (or was it James Bond? ).

[Opsa]

We have mentioned several times the basis for those attitudes: a deeply ingrained culture of the 'morality of fear' ("if you don't behave you'll go to hell") with the obvious implication that morality cannot exist without god/religion.

Am I nuts or does this look like a form of slavery? A slave is a person who is denied access to freedom upon threat of death. It looks to me as if some religions are practicing this kind of slavery. I think some people are scared carpless to even sneak a peek at any other way than the one that enslaves them, lest they go to the place of eternal death. They are perhaps innocent, well-meaning people who are being controlled with the use of fear.

This bothers me. I feel that it is dangerous both for those who are being "herded" into zealotry (no matter how nice the origional intentions) and it is dangerous for those of us who not only disagree, but are found to think otherwise even in private. How can this cycle be broken in a civil way? (I could be killed just for implying that.)

I am not saying that my own spiritual way is better. It is a convoluted bunch of many ideas folded in with my own experiences, is constantly evolving and is not for everyone. It is unstable and tailored to my needs. I could not enforce it on anyone else because it's an individual thing, and I think there are other Siblings here who also like to forge their own personal passages. I prefer to do this because thinking on my own helps me get the information I need to improve myself in this world. I don't follow manuals, but I understand that others find it easier to do so.

That's about the best I can do.

[Aggie]

It is a convoluted bunch of many ideas folded in with my own experiences, is constantly evolving and is not for everyone. It is unstable and tailored to my needs. I could not enforce it on anyone else because it's an individual thing, and I think there are other Siblings here who also like to forge their own personal passages. I prefer to do this because thinking on my own helps me get the information I need to improve myself in this world.

Isn't that supposed to be how it is, theist or non-theist?


I was thinking about this today - it (again) emphasizes the differences between Americans and Canadians.  Most of the people (especially my age, but even most of my parent's generation) I know would likely call themselves "non-religious", although they may have a nominal notion of believing in God (predominantly Christian by default), they don't attend church, pray, or think much about the subject.

Lambi, correct me if it's different out your way, because after all, us Westerners are dirty pinko treehuggers.  BC, anyways. Alberta is one of the most pro-american, right-wing Christian provinces here, especially the rural populations,  and it's NOWHERE near the stories I hear from down south.  I've never heard of an atheist being persecuted up here.

[Sibling Chatty]

And there's damn little atheist persecution even HERE.

You get the whining about persecution, but when you ask for specifics?? Not so much.

At a Freethinker's Meet-Up (Can't say Atheist, ya know, Bible Belt!!) in College Station people were asked for ways they'd been persecuted for their stated lack of belief. One guy had been asked to switch roommates. OK, so would he have WANTED to be roommates with the Jesuit Seminarian that was picking up a DocVetMed on the side?? BUT he was persecuted!! He HAD to switch roommates!! After all of 3 hours!!(What, he had to watch the guy carry his shit to Newman House?? The Catholic Student Center had 2 dorm-type rooms available...) Well, his BIG bitch was that he'd ended up with an exchange student roommate. Not caucasian...

One guy finally pointed out that NOT being waited on first at Starbucks wasn't persecution, it was what happened when you were too busy texting somebody to listen to the barista.

It was an interesting meeting. When someone finally asked me, I pointed out that back when I met Madelyn Murray O'Hair in the late 60's, even SHE wasn't stupid enough to scream persecution for shit she brought on herself. I also pointed out that a bunch of fundamentalist Christians and a bunch of Atheists would probably be able to co-exist nicely if everyone acted like the other side was human as well, and didn't make snotty remarks.

Then I tipped the poor waitress $5 and told them that when they grew up enough to NOT be offended by the dove embroidered on the tip of her shirt collars (several had made cutting remarks about the Jeebus Bird on her shirt) they MIGHT notice the pockets on her apron, which pointed out that she'd been in a DOVE SOAP commercial shot there that day.

See, when in public, if one acts an ass, one often gets to BE an ass.

Then she pointed out that she was raised 'sorta' Jewish, and was a non-combatant in their stupid little snipe-fest.

I really rarely am able to find all this persecution that supposedly goes on.

The guy that got fired for being an atheist over at the Sealy plant?? Well, he had 4 'notes' in his personnel file about coming in drunk, and 3 is enough to get you fired. The ACLU gave up when they found out he'd claimed religious persecution when he was fired for that, and not showing up for 4 days...by a guy that said "GOD knows, man, we've tried to work with you, tried to help, but you're not taking it serious." "GOD"...they MOCKED him!! Nobody there knew he was atheist. Nobody cared.

Too much cryin' wolf out there.

[Opsa]

I think that what we're afraid of is the kind of persecution that we hear about in Muslim territories, where anything but Islam is considered Atheist (because you don't follow THEIR specific path) and are thus an Infidel and not worthy of living in this world with the faithful. You are the weakest link- goodbye! Ka-bloom! Whether or not that's really so common, I do not know.

Pagans in our area feel worried about coming out of the (broom) closet because they fear some sort of lynching or other KKK-style action may be taken out against them. Again, I do not know if this is a valid concern or not. They do believe in God(dess), but are worried that their kids will be shunned and hooligans will leave dog poop on their porches and the like. I suggested to one that they adopt a highway and put up a sign that reads "This highway cleaned regularly by Your Pagan Community", but I don't know how she felt about that. I wasn't kidding, though. If they were more visibe in a positive way, they could probably do a lot of good.

Maybe I'll do it myself. "This highway adopted by Your Local Heathen".

[Griffin NoName]

I don't know about persecution but I do think it is more acceptable to be believe in the wrong G-d than no G-d.

[beagle]

Don't know about persecution, but I know from people who've worked in the States that are definitely places where if you don't wash the car on Saturday and go to church on Sunday you're an object of suspicion.  Probably no more so than the devoutly religious are here though.

[Darlica]

Griffins  aside, she has a point.

A woman I met many years ago who travelled a lot in the middle east always carried a small cross in a chain around her neck when she travelled even though she wasn't that religious. She said that she was treated better the times her cross was visible, her experience was that a "godless" westerner gets even less respect than a Christian one. 

This of cause was long before G W Bush II Crusades...

On the other hand Mattias Gardell professor in comparative religion (at Upsala University) and I think Sweden's most famous pagan, is one of the few in not the only white man, and non Muslim that has interviewed the leaders in Nation of Islam and visited their headquarters repeatedly (for a dissertation on Louis Farrakhan and a book about religious based racism in the USA), they said they let him in just because he wasn't Christian but like them belonged to an oppressed minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattias_Gardell 

He is BTW a very nice (but belligerent) man and an excellent speaker and writer, I have heard a couple of lectures he has given and read some papers he written.