Embryo Research

[Aggie]

This is always the conundrum.  But, by the same token, every time a woman has "a visit from aunt flo" or a man has a wet dream, potential human lives/persons are eliminated.

Every time you masturbate, God kills a kitten, remember?

Just taking a little of the pressure off of the Animal Shelter.  
_{(seriously, spay and neuter your pets)}

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

I suppose when it can survive on its own is the best marker (I would have issues with having one myself after it has brain waves, but that's neither here nor there).

That's the BEAUTY of leaving the final decision up to the woman in question-- and NO ONE ELSE.

"but, but, but-- it's MY baby, too!" complains the deadbeat dad.
"Fine.  YOU implant it into YOUR belly for 9 months, then!"
"*splutter-splutter*"

_{(seriously, spay and neuter your pets)}

RUMBLE!

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Like the worst version of Junior ever.

^{Could it have gotten any worse, though?}

[Griffin NoName]

Just that they are embryos that weren't going anywhere in the natural course of things.

And Aggie's solution would be fine if anyone thought they were 

Maybe we need an Embryo Shelter, where they can be put up for "adoption" (implantation) by devoted pro-lifers; if they don't get adopted in 3 weeks, then off to science!

[anthrobabe]

  males wanting a say in reproductive rights! all to often they want a say but not a DO- as in do the diapers, do the feeding, do the raising, do the supporting, do the crying, do_____
they just want to say

Oh but some of them really want to be daddies-- yes and they might be great daddies- so go find a woman who wants to be a mommy.

and then of course there is the conundrum of sperm doner being sued for child support--- this is simply more proof that there are idiots walking around loose in the world.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

males wanting a say in reproductive rights! all to often they want a say but not a DO- as in do the diapers, do the feeding, do the raising, do the supporting, do the crying, do_____
they just want to say

Oh but some of them really want to be daddies-- yes and they might be great daddies- so go find a woman who wants to be a mommy.

and then of course there is the conundrum of sperm doner being sued for child support--- this is simply more proof that there are idiots walking around loose in the world.

Rumble!

For the most part-- I blame people who do not think they are worthy, but just the opposite.

A tiny, tiny bit of "I'm not worthy" is a good thing, I think-- just a bit, just enough to help you remember you are NOT alone on this planet, but you must share.

But these pukes who are the opposite of "i'm not worthy" who think that they are somehow owed something?  A pox on'em. 

Mix that with a sizable bunch that have zero understanding of simple economics; these sort think that money is infinite.  They do not understand that money from the government has to come from somewhere.....

These also think that anyone with money has an infinite amount, and they want some for themselves, by hook or by crook.

Crazy?  Maybe.  Lazy, selfish and greedy?  Certainly.

[Griffin NoName]

You lot just cannot keep on topic can you?*

Just watched a political sketch program. My sort of politics. But they take care to present both "sides"

They'd invited on a roman catholic and she came out with the "tamper" word.

If I hear T A M P E R one more time I might explode.

They didn't pick up on it - shame.

But, they did ask her why she wanted to delay finding medical cures for exceedingly nasty diseases for millions of sufferers.

She went totally silent.

It was a beautiful moment.

She had no reply and didn't even try to find one.

I may go and add "tamper" to the swear words thread


* the fuss in the UK is about mixing animals and humans - I think the extent of off-topic here reflects the difference in debates bewteen the UK and US......  but the UK Toadfish are a bit silent so I can't really test this theory.... maybe the UK Toadfish are just too shy to talk about something which is loosely related to sex

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

You lot just cannot keep on topic can you?*

Just watched a political sketch program. My sort of politics. But they take care to present both "sides"

They'd invited on a roman catholic and she came out with the "tamper" word.

If I hear T A M P E R one more time I might explode.

They didn't pick up on it - shame.

But, they did ask her why she wanted to delay finding medical cures for exceedingly nasty diseases for millions of sufferers.

She went totally silent.

It was a beautiful moment.

She had no reply and didn't even try to find one.

I may go and add "tamper" to the swear words thread


* the fuss in the UK is about mixing animals and humans - I think the extent of off-topic here reflects the difference in debates bewteen the UK and US......  but the UK Toadfish are a bit silent so I can't really test this theory.... maybe the UK Toadfish are just too shy to talk about something which is loosely related to sex

That silence is at least honest-- it's an admission that she cannot answer the conundrum her beliefs have created.

I think I prefer that, to the lame twisting of the Bible that some fundies come up with instead...

[beagle]

* the fuss in the UK is about mixing animals and humans - I think the extent of off-topic here reflects the difference in debates bewteen the UK and US......  but the UK Toadfish are a bit silent so I can't really test this theory.... maybe the UK Toadfish are just too shy to talk about something which is loosely related to sex

I have a premium rate phone number for those sort of talks.

Actually it's because I don't see it as clear-cut. I'm 95% in favour of stem cell/embryo experiments but don't think Dr Mengele* was the last of the mad medical scientists. There are ones out there who would happily grow a human/non-human-animal cross to term just to see how it reacted to penicillin, so this particular case is very near the limits of my enthusiasm.

My attiitude is allow this, but with very strict (low number of ) licences, term limits and rigorous monitoring, in cases where there is good justification that it's necessary (thinking that a human/giraffe cross might be good at basketball doesn't qualify).


*  Catholic apparently

[Griffin NoName]

Not seeing it as clear cut is debating material.

I agree. Where ther be human science; there be monsters.

In that respect the bill is vital !!

How to police the 14 day rule should be the real debate..... since we already know that regulatory bodies leave a lot to be desired.

Someone needs to invent a regulatory body with real teeth.

[The Meromorph]

They were called the Dominicans. 

And their organization still exists, though it's been renamed and lost its teeth.


The results weren't pretty.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

My attiitude is allow this, but with very strict (low number of ) licences, term limits and rigorous monitoring, in cases where there is good justification that it's necessary (thinking that a human/giraffe cross might be good at basketball doesn't qualify).

Agreed. And then we might have an evil giraffe who not only eats all the leaves off the trees (or picks all the good stuff out of the trail mix) and can shoot hoops with the best of them.

I might add that I think there should be an in-house ethicist hovering over the operation at all times.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

My, I'm late...

As said before modern medicine is a form of tampering and the most blatant exponent are antibiotics; you can make the case that antibiotics are tampering with evolution by allowing the 'weak' to survive. 

Let the ones claiming such tampering choose their stance the next time they go to a doctor.
---
The moral issues are certainly complicated and the boundaries are hard to determine. Is having a human body without a functioning brain immoral by itself? Is it immoral to create one? At what point and what human genes should and shouldn't be used in animals? I'm all for harvesting organs from scratch but how far -and how difficult to deal with the temptation- from the cloning concept of a movie like The Island?

Is just a problem of pain? Or perhaps consciousness?

[pieces o nine]

I like to think of self-awareness and/or sentience as the demarcation.

Then I consider people with severe mental handicaps or those in coma. There is no easy marker, no pat solution.

[Griffin NoName]

I have moved posts from here to Right For Life topic.

Posts moved:  Scribbles and Aggie and Bob.

This is another attempt to stay focused on the actual Bill which is NOT about right to life issues.



Fot those having difficulty staying on topic:

Think of EMBRYOS not human beings that exist as any kind of living entity. Remember we are talking of an EMBRYO undergoing TWO WEEKS of experimentals and not being developed beyond that.

It is interesting how hard it is being to stay ON topic.