Vice-presidential debate....OMG!

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The polls have been moving decidedly towards Obama and now the repugs are scared, so they'll do what they know best: smear and lie. They have a month to put as many lies/misrepresentations in the airways as they can to avoid losing, we'll see if it works (it did in the previous 2 elections  ).

[Sibling Chatty]

Obama and the DNC seem to be prepared.

Let's hope their lying gets so stringently focused out of the reach of reality that nobody but the Freeper/Fundie base pays attention. Those are lost causes, let all 22% of them vote for McSame/Failin. The REST of the electorate can either get over their prejudices or vote for Bob Barr.

Personally, I'd like to see a nice "other" voter turn out for Cynthia McKinney.

[pieces o nine]

Mom's friends are still  "afraid" of Obama   [*still* citing -- inaccurately and bumblingly, because they've never actually *read* them, let alone learned any literary critism -- the  Prophecies    of poor old Michel de Nostredame, the ravingly delusional author of the Book of Revelation, and the Mayan's 2012 bit]   despite any and all rational rebuttals. Some are still  simpering that Palin "can't be any worse than the men" and will "learn on the job".

waitaminnit! why am I banging *my* head against the wall? where is the humble and respectful icon for banging someone *else*'s head against the wall?

The ugly specter of racism is being met head-on in this election. It's bad enough in some areas where slavery was practised and defended. But it also has a hold where some white members of that rapidly diminishing middle class have never actually befriended someone from a different Christian denomination  and clutch their purses nervously if they hear someone speaking a different language,  let alone met someone from a different race. 

The realization that many of those dear old bats will probably vote Republican EVEN THOUGH THEY *KNOW* that McCain is a two-faced, war-mongering, economic dunderhead who could make Bush43 look COMPETENT in comparison, and his running mate, the 'pitbull in lipstick', will cheerfully undermine every gain they made in their lives for themselves, their daughters and granddaughters, because they are AFRAID that Obama is teh antichrist,  just fills me with anger and a sense of futility.

gah. 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

It is rarely possibly to change an older generation (with all due respect for the older siblings) but a younger generation is pretty much there, according to the polls young people will vote Obama 2:1.

If prejudice is too big then perhaps it isn't a matter of convincing someone to vote for someone but to abstain from doing so...

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

It is rarely possibly to change an older generation (with all due respect for the older siblings) but a younger generation is pretty much there, according to the polls young people will vote Obama 2:1.

Hell yes. I don't know anyone under 30 voting for McCheney/Failin.

But I am hearing the same things you are, Pieces. One of my older (50s, I think) customers is spouting that crap (he's also, generally speaking, a complete nut job*). He's got Obama confused with Keith Simmons (the guy sworn in the Koran) and says that Obama's the anit-christ, among other things.

<sub>*believes in reincarnation**, told me this morning he's had thousands of dreams about his past life and that he inexplicably spoke fluent German at the age of five because of them. John Lennon brought in the Age of the Aquarius, that whole prophecies of Nostradamus/Revelations crap, etc.

^{**Nothing wrong with that, but he's a bit of a fundie other than that}</sub>

[Sibling Chatty]

Remind all those that say Obama is the Antichrist because he's a Muslim and that Revelations SAY that...that the Muslim faith wasn't even around when Revelations was written...and that the LAST TWO VERSES of Revelations have a bit of a shocker for those who misquote and misuse it.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

Soooooo, that blaming revelations for their own prejudice or insanity or whatever??

Mmmm, nice fresh plagues....

[Swatopluk]

Well, Revelations is a prophetic book, so of course it can predict the rise of anothr religion not yet existing. Don't forget the secret smoked capybara recipe hidden in chapter 6.

[pieces o nine]

I've tried, Chatty.

I've point-blank asked them to articulate what they are afraid of. I've gone face-to-face and toe-to-toe with those who hem  and haw  and um  to avoid saying what their real 'problem' is.

I've pointed out (and these people know my exegetical chops) that:
(1) they are incorrectly quoting Bronze Age OT verses which were canonized before Christianity was dreamt of, let alone Islam, and therefore most certainly did not mention either 'antichrists' or 'Muslims';
(2) anything that sounds 'anti-Arab' shouldn't fill them with prophecy awe, as the various regional tribes had all kinds of issues with each other long before Abraham or the three religions currently bearing his name;
(3) the NT was also canonized before Islam was developed, and thus Revelation most certainly has nothing to say about either Muslims or 21st century US presidential races;
(4) the Biblical test for a true prophet was whether his prophecies came true. If not, it went badly for him. Political leaders throughout history have not employed prophets -- or any serious advisors -- whose focus was on predicting events thousands of years in the future, for a different  government over a different  country on different  continent, populated by people of different  ethnicities and different  religious leanings;
(5) the "End Times" have been predicted since members of H sap sap first developed the ability to comprehend their own individual deaths. Each of us is, frankly, living in our own respective "End Times" for the entirety of our lives;
(6) any prophecy worth its utterance must be clearly understandable by the people most affected by a predicted event, before the event, or it is worthless. The 'prophecies' they are quoting are not only mined from cultures and epochs far removed from their own, they (and others) have been cited at regular intervals by anyone who wants to scare people into submission;
(7) any other culture or tradition they are mining for 'prophecies' was similarly concerned with its own people, its own time, and tis own issues. It is hubristic and ignorant to think that every prophet throughout human history has been obsessed with the outcome of the 2008 US Presidential election. (Or was it the 2004? Or the 2000? Or the 1996? Or maybe the 2012? Or...)

It's like talking to a wall in a windstorm. I can only conclude that they would actually prefer  to vote for McCain/Palin, despite their voiced concerns that the rethug platform will likely plunge the entire world into economic collapse and a new-cue-ler world war. Because otherwise, they're voting for someone who *might* be the antichrist, and they'll go to hell for that.

There is no arguing with a trifecta of pathological ignorance, intractable superstition,¹ and acute  xenophobia.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
¹ which is not interchangeable with "religion". There have been plenty of religious people who are sane, grounded, and truly compassionate.

[Darlica]

I have no wish to undermine your argumentation but there are some in it that's not completely correct.

Nostredamus lived 1503-1566 and he wrote his "centurier" the prophesies fairly late in life.

Islam developed during the 7th century and is considered to be about 500-600 years younger than Christianity (it took some time for Christianity to develop from a Jewish cult to a new religion, and unlike what a lot of people think Jesus wasn't Christian he was Jewish...) 

By the time Nostredamus lived the Arab/Islamic world was a force to be reckon with the Turkish /Ottoman Empire was on the rise to be the biggest Empire in the known world aside of China (it's hight was in the 16th–17th century).

The anti Arabic/xenophobic parts are probably as genuine as can be, so is the Antichrist parts of the prophesy.   




The big question IMHO is why the ramblings of a man that lived 500 years ago is believed to hold any truth about the USA election 2008? If it was India I might understand it there''s another tradition of holy men speaking prophesies but India is becoming a modern country and such things are now frown upon... unlike in the USA apparently.   

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I think the 'logical' approach is illogical in this context. You can't reason with someone filled with prejudice and/or superstition. If I'd believe in demons and the antichrist I'd say that we already have him and he is already in power, and we had already seen the consequences of his power: Dick Cheney. In fact I'm sure you can google why he is the antichrist whitout having to match the details yourself.

[Griffin NoName]

It's bad enough in some areas where slavery was practised and defended. But it also has a hold where some white members of that rapidly diminishing middle class have never actually befriended someone from a different Christian denomination  and clutch their purses nervously if they hear someone speaking a different language,  let alone met someone from a different race. 

So where has the US as the glorious melting pot of the World where people are free and immigration from other cultures (etc) is a matter of pride disappeared to?  Or was that always mythical? exactly how did you get so many Jews? 

I think the 'logical' approach is illogical in this context. You can't reason with someone filled with prejudice and/or superstition.

Yes. I agree.

The sad fact is, if you took away the beliefs, there'd be a huge number of people unable to function because their survival mechanism had been removed.

There are no easy answers. with apologies to Swato

[pieces o nine]

Apologies to all: this is a topic that just makes me want to get up on my soapbox and rant.
If you take away my soapbox, I'll just stack up bars of soap and stand on them...

What I may have expressed badly there is that I'm interested enough in history to have read quite a bit of it, from the local to the global, and from more than one perspective where possible. I was quite impressed with the fire & brimstone stuff I got in childhood catechism, until I discovered 'myths' from other cultures. The more I read, the more fascinated I became with humanity's enduring struggle to make sense of the world, regardless of when or where given ideas originated.

What I see around me is, I suspect, not so much different from what occurs elsewhere in the world, as most of the people here came from elsewhere in the world. It's just that there are so very many of us struggling with conformation to and/or rebellion against an idealized national identity. Most people are, first and foremost, concerned with their immediate lives and immediate needs. Most don't learn from history because their focus is elsewhere and they need to believe that they are special, exempt cases with mitigating circumstances. Most don't study other religions (or even look critically at their own) because it upsets the deep need to have a checklist which, if followed unquestioningly, will magically solve or even prevent problems. When problems still occur, the sense of betrayal and unfairness is very strong, as is the desire to go back to some golden time in the past when everyone followed the rules. Worse, it triggers some very destructive tribal impulses.

There is a lot to be said for conservative thinking; without respect for the past we would *have* no records to study. But in the midst of looking to the past, I like Gary Jenkins' line from Aztec:

Myself, I have come to believe that the long-dead were no wiser than we, even when they were alive, and their being dead has added no luster to their wisdom.

What masquerades as 'conservatism' in current US politics is a travesty. It preserves nothing of value and encourages neither stewardship nor wisdom in the drive to reduce the masses to terrified, superstitious, obedient serfs to a privileged overclass. That the masses seem so eager to embrace this end in order to feel "secure" -- all the while chanting slogans about the price of freedom -- is not new. It's just depressing.

There is a lot to be said for liberal thinking; without openness to new ideas and a desire to progress we would have nothing to learn and no culture. Sadly at this point, what is castigated as "liberal" is, at best, a moderate position, which is worrisome in itself, and indicates a pervasive incuriousness about and disconnect from the world. Liberal and progressive ideals seem paralyzed by fear of irritating someone, to the point of atrophy (although both have had their moments in our history). But in the midst of looking forward, with hope, I also like Ruth Gordon's quote:

Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, face the facts.

This election calls to mind a final quote, from the Kybalion:

The pendulum ever swings, although we may escape being carried along with it.

We can only talk to each other as plainly as possible, challenging errors in thinking and misinformation (regardless of ideology) in hopes that the next President will not swing the pendulum so determinedly towards disaster, and that the masses will not so blindly and so willingly throw their own weight to ensuring that end.

[Griffin NoName]

P09, I have no problem with your position. I agree with it. Neither have I any issue with you ranting about it. Hope you don't feel unsupported.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

P09, I have no problem with your position. I agree with it. Neither have I any issue with you ranting about it. Hope you don't feel unsupported.

Agreed. Your ideas there reflect a lot of mine (though better articulated).

[pieces o nine]

Hope you don't feel unsupported.

NO, oi duzzint. An oi 'as fownd that a koalatea garmint wiv whalebone unnerwoires werkes wunders in that regarde...