Vice-presidential debate....OMG!

[stellinacadente]

Now my humble apologies to all of you for venturing in a field of which I have limited knowledge....

more apologies for sticking my greencard holder nose into the politics of a country where I have the right to pay taxes but not to vote...

am I stating blasphemies if I say that Palin should go back to AK and stay there?

I mean the woman did not even came close to compare to senator Biden's style, communication effectiveness and strategy...

She avoided to answer most of the hot question, mostly because well... there isn't an answer...

she kept repeating "as a governor of an energy producing state" like she wanted to use the debate to advertise AK!!!!

She kept rebuffing senator Biden  for referring to the distraous policies of the Bush's admnistration like it was a bad think to do (well, I hate to break to you Sarah, but looking at the past is the only way the human race, if ever, has learnt something!)

and she said " the greed and corruption in Wall street" at least 6 time in 40 min and 59 sec of her time... like the people who could't afford to buy that 750K beach property do not have anything to do with the economy going down the toilet....

I am so greatful I do not have to vote! 

[Aggie]

Missed it, and the Canadian debate scheduled in the same time slot.  I will have to catch both... they let Elizabeth May (leader of the Green party) participate FINALLY, so it was a 5-party debate this year.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I am so greatful I do not have to vote! 

And I'm sorry you can't, sorrier even because the kind of folksy accent and narrow minded speech makes her 'likable' with the 'common folk' (the same it did with dubya)*.

I honestly was hoping for more difficult questions for her to slip, but she learned the party line well enough not to draw more negative attention to her already clueless persona.

At least Biden didn't end up with his foot in his mouth...

* how talking in aggrandizing terms about her term as a major a little town in the middle of nowhere (there might be more people living in my block here!), and her hockey mom credentials, makes someone a credible candidate for many is a mystery to me, but then again I'm a foreigner too.

[Sibling Chatty]

Hey, she didn't fall on her face, so she's exceeded expectations!!

However, she's such a puppet.

And, for those of us with sensitive ears...

NUCULAR!!

The bimbo says NUCULAR. You can tell they've tried to train it out, but she says it.

We need a law that says if you can't pronounce it correctly, you can't say it. Bugged me when Carter did it (and he was a nuclear engineer), bugs me more now.

Auuugghhh...they'll claim it as a huge victory, and the mindless will flock to her lies. That's what mindless people do.

[pieces o nine]

Well, golly gee whillikers heck, Zono.

I sure as heck hope y'all aren't a-sayin' that "Joe Sixpack/Hockey Mum" talkin' doesn't just click with the middle class folksy folks -- just like her(!) -- who are a-sittin' around their new-cue-ler  dinin' room tables, a-worryin' '-- you know -- 'bout how to send their kids to college, gosh. An gosh, jest a-hangin' on her every word as thee ex-eck-you-tiv of a energy-producin' state, for gosh' sake. Cause, gee whiz, if that's what you're sayin', by gosh, I sure as heck...

gag   

Heck! I jest can't cough up any more folksy swarin' fer all y'all.



Oi sais, iffin yer a-goin t'sware, then sware, dadgummit.

Iffin yer a-gonna talk loike a perfeshunal, then talk loike a perfeshunal.

An gosh, iffin yer gonna lie mc-shamelessly threw yer caps, heck, stop a-winkin' an a-gigglin' an a-actin' loike yer at yer first dance an yer a-lookin' t'git 'lucky'.

[Swatopluk]

Well, she was able to pronounce it correctly in her acceptance speech. The teleprompter spelled it new clear for that purpose.

[Bluenose]

I listened to it live on the radio.  I was gobsmacked at the way she handled questions she didn't like (probably because she's a clueless bimbo, but then I'm an Aussie what would I know?).  She just said "well I'd like to bring it back to energy policy" and the continued on with the same mindless crap she'd already said a number of time before.  No one called he on it!  What the hey was the moderator doing?  She just let her rabbit on about irrelevancies.  I was just about ready to throw something at the radio!

[anthrobabe]

simply 

( I hope they turn Tina Fey and writers loose with it)

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

I heard she did a hell of a lot better than expected, but that meant she didn't pull a Couric, I expect.

Missed it last night (hey, friend's birthday party with swimming [yes, it's still warm enough to swim here] or tear my hair out. I picked the first option), but the youtube video is loading at the moment.

"Hey, can I call you Joe?"
Where's my puke bucket?

Update: Listening to it now.
Um, can I kill myself now? Please? She trying to connect to soccer moms. She's trying to connect to the group that won Bush another term. I hope she fails, please let her fail.
Also, she seems to ignore how much McCain has voted on party line. Biden should have pounded home on the health care issue, I think.

[pieces o nine]

He started off factual and on-topic (best course of action for him, especially since he would be damned for "picking on" or "patronizing" her otherwise).

But you could tell when he Got. Fed. Up. about halfway through with her refusal to even pretend to answer questions. He got angry -- but kept it under control -- and started treating her like the inferior candidate that she is.

I was wondering how the McCain campaign would counter the "Third Bush Term" meme and apparently simpering that Obama/Biden are "in the past" for pointing it out is their tactic. I watched the MSNBC post-debate analysis and *I* was 'gobsmacked' by how many Repub speakers gushed over her "clever strategy" of refusing to answer any question put to her, and instead setting up and answering her own. Taking control completely away from the moderator was described as the mark of an experienced and consummate debater (although I seem to remember howls and whining coming from the right when Obama "took control" during De-bait #1 in order to get back on topic.)

The MSNBC pre-debate analysis included a cameo interview with a Repug newspeaking all the McCain talking points and claiming that Palin's folksy folksiness would go over well with folksy folks in middle-class America, unlike Biden's "Arugula Middle Class" pretensions. The reporter actually took him to task on asserting that Joe Biden is an "elite" and beat him up a bit on defining what he meant by "Arugula Middle Class" but the guy wouldn't give a straight answer and wouldn't back down.

[stellinacadente]

Well, golly gee whillikers heck, Zono.

I sure as heck hope y'all aren't a-sayin' that "Joe Sixpack/Hockey Mum" talkin' doesn't just click with the middle class folksy folks -- just like her(!) -- who are a-sittin' around their new-cue-ler  dinin' room tables, a-worryin' '-- you know -- 'bout how to send their kids to college, gosh. An gosh, jest a-hangin' on her every word as thee ex-eck-you-tiv of a energy-producin' state, for gosh' sake. Cause, gee whiz, if that's what you're sayin', by gosh, I sure as heck...

gag   

Heck! I jest can't cough up any more folksy swarin' fer all y'all.



Oi sais, iffin yer a-goin t'sware, then sware, dadgummit.

Iffin yer a-gonna talk loike a perfeshunal, then talk loike a perfeshunal.

An gosh, iffin yer gonna lie mc-shamelessly threw yer caps, heck, stop a-winkin' an a-gigglin' an a-actin' loike yer at yer first dance an yer a-lookin' t'git 'lucky'.

Now, of all you you posted I could probably get like 20%, but I take it you don't like Palin either

[pieces o nine]

Gosh. Heck, does it show? 

[Opsa]

Oh gosh-n-golly no! She makes my head feel like it's caving in.

What do we have to do to make these people stop "speaking for the American People"? They are quite clearly NOT speaking for us, they're just SAYING they are. Every time I hear them say "and I think the American people agree with me-" I just want to scream. The American People are tremendously diverse. I am quite certain that my opinions do not match those of my neighbors in the house to my left, right, or across the street.

...BTW- when she says "Straight Talk", does she just mean "anti-Gay"? 'Cause she's certainly not speaking in facts.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

Meh, in the end the polls after the debate went to Biden as the 'winner'. If the trend continues there is hope unless...
[youtube=425,350]goXPDdujYlg[/youtube]

[ivor]

I thought she was channeling the Boy Wonder from the original Batman series.

[pieces o nine]

Holey Tax Cuts, M-Bman, you may be right!

[ivor]

Here's my version of the debate.  Biden is Batman and Robin is Palin.

[youtube=425,350]adRSRsAtIZ8[/youtube]

[Sibling Chatty]

Her voice.

All the charm of Frances McDormand in Fargo, and all the 'bubbliness' of a 16 year old running for cheerleader.

She should be shot just for that.

[pieces o nine]

I liked your clip, MB.

I see that Batman had his own "Utility Belt" and seemed to recognize and demonstrate competency with all the cool gizmos therein.

I see also that Robin was apparently not entrusted with a utility belt.

I'm sure that doesn't mean anything. 

[Swatopluk]

Although I downloaded the whole thing in 11 parts from youtube I have as of now just watched the first 10 minutes (and separately ex-candidate Thompson's statement* just before the debate). That Lady is a snake (with apology to all legless reptiles).
The way she talks (apart from the things she says) ring all alarm bells. The content is just parrotting but the voice tells me that she is..eh..not a very nice person (i.e. the type one should not let behind one's back for fear of a dagger).
In the same first 10 minutes Biden did not make the best impression on me either but for completely different reasons. He sounded a bit weary to me ("Why do I have to participate in this while I could do something useful both for the people and the campaign?").
As a general observation about the P/VP candidates this season I'd say that both Obama and Biden are more long distance runners that need some time to take up speed while the Son of Cain and Not-the-other-Palin only do the 100 metres. For the presidency the former is needed while the media only honor the latter. I have listened to several Obama full speeches now. He starts with a lot of ehs and ums, then gathers momentum and has the crowd worshipping at his feet after a few minutes. The other team can only do soundbites or has to use a script (with catastrophic results once the have to go off it for more than a minute).
Get a better debate format and connect them to an improved polygraph (an open magnetic resonance tomograph could do**)
And a last thing: Keep a herd of mavericks backstage that stampede any candidate using the term more than 2 times***.

*that left me with the desire to use the baseball bat (I don't have) either on him or on myself.
**that would also show whether the talking person is actually thinking or just parrotting, I believe
*** http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=2gXmmz0L8Fk

[Aggie]

Watching now.   The catch-phrase sure is "the middle class".

You have no lower class down there, or is it just that none of them are eligible to vote? 
________________________________________

Income tax credit?! (I had heard a bit about FryGuy's health care reforms, but obviously not enough), but how does someone with a low income benefit from an income tax credit for one's health care costs?

(we haz a credit here, but we also get basic health care to start with)

_________

OH, STOP IT.... SHE'S TERRIBLE..... "ENERGY, ENERGY, ENERGY"



-she just said America should just deal with the impacts of climate change, and damn the causes.

-did she just say that North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure product is a $40 billion "clean green natural gas" pipeline?  ARE Y'ALL PAYING TAXES FOR THAT?! 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Watching now.   The catch-phrase sure is "the middle class".

You have no lower class down there, or is it just that none of them are eligible to vote? 

Oh yeah, we have a lower class down here, certainly. But there's no point in pandering to them, is there? There's plenty of them (entire cities), but they don't waffle much as far as I know. They're not the swing voters the middle class are.

Blurg.

So I was chatting with a friend about this last night, and her dad added in, telling us that she wants to move the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. I haven't watched all of the debate yet, so I haven't seen the bit about that, but anybody catch that? He said the American media won't, but did anybody else?
Moving it seems like a bad idea. Very bad. Like, lots of exploding Americans and some constant rebuilding bad.

[pieces o nine]

When she threw in that line about the "new" embassy, I had to smack myself in the back of the head to get my eyes to roll back down.

It was just another bone tossed to the "God+Guns" fundiegelical base. 'Cause gosh, you sure as heck *need* a big-spankin-new U-S-of-A embassy right there, front-and-center in Jerusalem, so it's the first thing Jesus sees at the Second Coming, before he destroys all the unsaved in the city. Praise!



: pieces is mortified on behalf of some of her country-men and -women :

[Griffin NoName]

..........she wants to move the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Classic case of projective identification. Closer to G-d am I. She'll be claiming women are made in G-d's image next. 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

On that note,

...dictators who hate America and hate what we stand for, with our freedoms, our democracy, our tolerance, our respect for women's rights...

Aww, Sawah Palin, you so funny! You make me laugh when you talk about respecting women's rights.

I don't think she knows what 'rights' means when in conjunction with 'woman' (what? Rape babies?).

With building the embassy in Jerusalem, what on earth would we gain? I honestly can't see anything that we could gain out of such a paper tiger move.

Looks like Biden did a good job of pointing out how the McCheney-Moose ticket would be going back on what even the Bush administration has figured out doesn't work, though.

Palin:...The surge principles, not the exact strategy, but the surge principles that have worked in Iraq need to be implemented in Afghanistan, also. And that, perhaps, would be a difference with the Bush administration.

And where are those troops going to come from? That whole section about Afghanistan (I have no idea what time in the debate that would be; I gave up and am reading a transcript) is just lies and ignorance.
She sounds like she's running out of whatever they prepped her with the entire time. Running on the very edge of her tether, as it were.

I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies...

Does that make anybody else nervous? I don't know if she can threaten people into line like Cheney can, but none the less.

[Swatopluk]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/03/palinflow.jpg

[Griffin NoName]

Well, that's really black and white   :smackwrist-smilie:

[pieces o nine]

I liked it very much.

Of course, it seemed a bit too complicated for her to actually follow.

[Griffin NoName]

I just heard her commenting about Obama consorting with terrorists. no comment from me - just trying to inflame this debate

[Darlica]

I read that too, and the story behind it...


ouch!

I'm not denying we have idiots in the parliament and as leaders for our political parties over here but at least our politician's doesn't have the same amount of power over the rest of the world as the president of USA and his court...

Bush was really bad, Mc Pain and Palin might actually be worse, I'm getting more and more scared for every day. 

 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

The polls have been moving decidedly towards Obama and now the repugs are scared, so they'll do what they know best: smear and lie. They have a month to put as many lies/misrepresentations in the airways as they can to avoid losing, we'll see if it works (it did in the previous 2 elections  ).

[Sibling Chatty]

Obama and the DNC seem to be prepared.

Let's hope their lying gets so stringently focused out of the reach of reality that nobody but the Freeper/Fundie base pays attention. Those are lost causes, let all 22% of them vote for McSame/Failin. The REST of the electorate can either get over their prejudices or vote for Bob Barr.

Personally, I'd like to see a nice "other" voter turn out for Cynthia McKinney.

[pieces o nine]

Mom's friends are still  "afraid" of Obama   [*still* citing -- inaccurately and bumblingly, because they've never actually *read* them, let alone learned any literary critism -- the  Prophecies    of poor old Michel de Nostredame, the ravingly delusional author of the Book of Revelation, and the Mayan's 2012 bit]   despite any and all rational rebuttals. Some are still  simpering that Palin "can't be any worse than the men" and will "learn on the job".

waitaminnit! why am I banging *my* head against the wall? where is the humble and respectful icon for banging someone *else*'s head against the wall?

The ugly specter of racism is being met head-on in this election. It's bad enough in some areas where slavery was practised and defended. But it also has a hold where some white members of that rapidly diminishing middle class have never actually befriended someone from a different Christian denomination  and clutch their purses nervously if they hear someone speaking a different language,  let alone met someone from a different race. 

The realization that many of those dear old bats will probably vote Republican EVEN THOUGH THEY *KNOW* that McCain is a two-faced, war-mongering, economic dunderhead who could make Bush43 look COMPETENT in comparison, and his running mate, the 'pitbull in lipstick', will cheerfully undermine every gain they made in their lives for themselves, their daughters and granddaughters, because they are AFRAID that Obama is teh antichrist,  just fills me with anger and a sense of futility.

gah. 

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

It is rarely possibly to change an older generation (with all due respect for the older siblings) but a younger generation is pretty much there, according to the polls young people will vote Obama 2:1.

If prejudice is too big then perhaps it isn't a matter of convincing someone to vote for someone but to abstain from doing so...

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

It is rarely possibly to change an older generation (with all due respect for the older siblings) but a younger generation is pretty much there, according to the polls young people will vote Obama 2:1.

Hell yes. I don't know anyone under 30 voting for McCheney/Failin.

But I am hearing the same things you are, Pieces. One of my older (50s, I think) customers is spouting that crap (he's also, generally speaking, a complete nut job*). He's got Obama confused with Keith Simmons (the guy sworn in the Koran) and says that Obama's the anit-christ, among other things.

<sub>*believes in reincarnation**, told me this morning he's had thousands of dreams about his past life and that he inexplicably spoke fluent German at the age of five because of them. John Lennon brought in the Age of the Aquarius, that whole prophecies of Nostradamus/Revelations crap, etc.

^{**Nothing wrong with that, but he's a bit of a fundie other than that}</sub>

[Sibling Chatty]

Remind all those that say Obama is the Antichrist because he's a Muslim and that Revelations SAY that...that the Muslim faith wasn't even around when Revelations was written...and that the LAST TWO VERSES of Revelations have a bit of a shocker for those who misquote and misuse it.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

Soooooo, that blaming revelations for their own prejudice or insanity or whatever??

Mmmm, nice fresh plagues....

[Swatopluk]

Well, Revelations is a prophetic book, so of course it can predict the rise of anothr religion not yet existing. Don't forget the secret smoked capybara recipe hidden in chapter 6.

[pieces o nine]

I've tried, Chatty.

I've point-blank asked them to articulate what they are afraid of. I've gone face-to-face and toe-to-toe with those who hem  and haw  and um  to avoid saying what their real 'problem' is.

I've pointed out (and these people know my exegetical chops) that:
(1) they are incorrectly quoting Bronze Age OT verses which were canonized before Christianity was dreamt of, let alone Islam, and therefore most certainly did not mention either 'antichrists' or 'Muslims';
(2) anything that sounds 'anti-Arab' shouldn't fill them with prophecy awe, as the various regional tribes had all kinds of issues with each other long before Abraham or the three religions currently bearing his name;
(3) the NT was also canonized before Islam was developed, and thus Revelation most certainly has nothing to say about either Muslims or 21st century US presidential races;
(4) the Biblical test for a true prophet was whether his prophecies came true. If not, it went badly for him. Political leaders throughout history have not employed prophets -- or any serious advisors -- whose focus was on predicting events thousands of years in the future, for a different  government over a different  country on different  continent, populated by people of different  ethnicities and different  religious leanings;
(5) the "End Times" have been predicted since members of H sap sap first developed the ability to comprehend their own individual deaths. Each of us is, frankly, living in our own respective "End Times" for the entirety of our lives;
(6) any prophecy worth its utterance must be clearly understandable by the people most affected by a predicted event, before the event, or it is worthless. The 'prophecies' they are quoting are not only mined from cultures and epochs far removed from their own, they (and others) have been cited at regular intervals by anyone who wants to scare people into submission;
(7) any other culture or tradition they are mining for 'prophecies' was similarly concerned with its own people, its own time, and tis own issues. It is hubristic and ignorant to think that every prophet throughout human history has been obsessed with the outcome of the 2008 US Presidential election. (Or was it the 2004? Or the 2000? Or the 1996? Or maybe the 2012? Or...)

It's like talking to a wall in a windstorm. I can only conclude that they would actually prefer  to vote for McCain/Palin, despite their voiced concerns that the rethug platform will likely plunge the entire world into economic collapse and a new-cue-ler world war. Because otherwise, they're voting for someone who *might* be the antichrist, and they'll go to hell for that.

There is no arguing with a trifecta of pathological ignorance, intractable superstition,¹ and acute  xenophobia.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
¹ which is not interchangeable with "religion". There have been plenty of religious people who are sane, grounded, and truly compassionate.

[Darlica]

I have no wish to undermine your argumentation but there are some in it that's not completely correct.

Nostredamus lived 1503-1566 and he wrote his "centurier" the prophesies fairly late in life.

Islam developed during the 7th century and is considered to be about 500-600 years younger than Christianity (it took some time for Christianity to develop from a Jewish cult to a new religion, and unlike what a lot of people think Jesus wasn't Christian he was Jewish...) 

By the time Nostredamus lived the Arab/Islamic world was a force to be reckon with the Turkish /Ottoman Empire was on the rise to be the biggest Empire in the known world aside of China (it's hight was in the 16th–17th century).

The anti Arabic/xenophobic parts are probably as genuine as can be, so is the Antichrist parts of the prophesy.   




The big question IMHO is why the ramblings of a man that lived 500 years ago is believed to hold any truth about the USA election 2008? If it was India I might understand it there''s another tradition of holy men speaking prophesies but India is becoming a modern country and such things are now frown upon... unlike in the USA apparently.   

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I think the 'logical' approach is illogical in this context. You can't reason with someone filled with prejudice and/or superstition. If I'd believe in demons and the antichrist I'd say that we already have him and he is already in power, and we had already seen the consequences of his power: Dick Cheney. In fact I'm sure you can google why he is the antichrist whitout having to match the details yourself.

[Griffin NoName]

It's bad enough in some areas where slavery was practised and defended. But it also has a hold where some white members of that rapidly diminishing middle class have never actually befriended someone from a different Christian denomination  and clutch their purses nervously if they hear someone speaking a different language,  let alone met someone from a different race. 

So where has the US as the glorious melting pot of the World where people are free and immigration from other cultures (etc) is a matter of pride disappeared to?  Or was that always mythical? exactly how did you get so many Jews? 

I think the 'logical' approach is illogical in this context. You can't reason with someone filled with prejudice and/or superstition.

Yes. I agree.

The sad fact is, if you took away the beliefs, there'd be a huge number of people unable to function because their survival mechanism had been removed.

There are no easy answers. with apologies to Swato

[pieces o nine]

Apologies to all: this is a topic that just makes me want to get up on my soapbox and rant.
If you take away my soapbox, I'll just stack up bars of soap and stand on them...

What I may have expressed badly there is that I'm interested enough in history to have read quite a bit of it, from the local to the global, and from more than one perspective where possible. I was quite impressed with the fire & brimstone stuff I got in childhood catechism, until I discovered 'myths' from other cultures. The more I read, the more fascinated I became with humanity's enduring struggle to make sense of the world, regardless of when or where given ideas originated.

What I see around me is, I suspect, not so much different from what occurs elsewhere in the world, as most of the people here came from elsewhere in the world. It's just that there are so very many of us struggling with conformation to and/or rebellion against an idealized national identity. Most people are, first and foremost, concerned with their immediate lives and immediate needs. Most don't learn from history because their focus is elsewhere and they need to believe that they are special, exempt cases with mitigating circumstances. Most don't study other religions (or even look critically at their own) because it upsets the deep need to have a checklist which, if followed unquestioningly, will magically solve or even prevent problems. When problems still occur, the sense of betrayal and unfairness is very strong, as is the desire to go back to some golden time in the past when everyone followed the rules. Worse, it triggers some very destructive tribal impulses.

There is a lot to be said for conservative thinking; without respect for the past we would *have* no records to study. But in the midst of looking to the past, I like Gary Jenkins' line from Aztec:

Myself, I have come to believe that the long-dead were no wiser than we, even when they were alive, and their being dead has added no luster to their wisdom.

What masquerades as 'conservatism' in current US politics is a travesty. It preserves nothing of value and encourages neither stewardship nor wisdom in the drive to reduce the masses to terrified, superstitious, obedient serfs to a privileged overclass. That the masses seem so eager to embrace this end in order to feel "secure" -- all the while chanting slogans about the price of freedom -- is not new. It's just depressing.

There is a lot to be said for liberal thinking; without openness to new ideas and a desire to progress we would have nothing to learn and no culture. Sadly at this point, what is castigated as "liberal" is, at best, a moderate position, which is worrisome in itself, and indicates a pervasive incuriousness about and disconnect from the world. Liberal and progressive ideals seem paralyzed by fear of irritating someone, to the point of atrophy (although both have had their moments in our history). But in the midst of looking forward, with hope, I also like Ruth Gordon's quote:

Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, face the facts.

This election calls to mind a final quote, from the Kybalion:

The pendulum ever swings, although we may escape being carried along with it.

We can only talk to each other as plainly as possible, challenging errors in thinking and misinformation (regardless of ideology) in hopes that the next President will not swing the pendulum so determinedly towards disaster, and that the masses will not so blindly and so willingly throw their own weight to ensuring that end.

[Griffin NoName]

P09, I have no problem with your position. I agree with it. Neither have I any issue with you ranting about it. Hope you don't feel unsupported.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

P09, I have no problem with your position. I agree with it. Neither have I any issue with you ranting about it. Hope you don't feel unsupported.

Agreed. Your ideas there reflect a lot of mine (though better articulated).

[pieces o nine]

Hope you don't feel unsupported.

NO, oi duzzint. An oi 'as fownd that a koalatea garmint wiv whalebone unnerwoires werkes wunders in that regarde...

[Aggie]

So where has the US as the glorious melting pot of the World where people are free and immigration from other cultures (etc) is a matter of pride disappeared to? 

It went North.

Possibly about the same time Canada stopped putting people of suspicious foreign ancestry in concentration camps, but definitely before we stopped putting children of suspicious native ancestry in residential schools.  

[pieces o nine]

So where has the US as the glorious melting pot of the World where people are free and immigration from other cultures (etc) is a matter of pride disappeared to? 

It went North.

Possibly about the same time Canada stopped putting people of suspicious foreign ancestry in concentration camps, but definitely before we stopped putting children of suspicious native ancestry in residential schools.  

There's enough of that shame to go around.   

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
This man is like a demigod to me. 


Keith Olbermann: Special Comment
11 min/10 sec of righteous lefteous outraged telefrothing