Feminism

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

'Paca: Anime prawn, hm? Some of that is...disturbing. Tentacles do NOT belong there!

Beware! I have the feeling that's a subject you don't want to go. 

[goat starer]

So London needs to be copy the socialism level of New York rather than it's crime policy? Are you sure?

I dont understand this sentance. sorry.

I think men sometimes get it both coming and going (this NOT a double entendre). Research published a couple of weeks ago said that in lab tests the three qualities that women are most immediately attracted to are deviousness, narcissism and the impulsive behaviour of the psychopath. So honest, humble and restrained men aint going to get a look in... bad luck my toadfish buddies!

so whatever evolutionary quirk made awful men attractive to women perpetuates awful behaviour by men. To succeed (at least at getting laid) being thoroughly unpleasant seems to be the best strategy.

PS. try telling japanese superhero schoolgirls that tentacles dont belong there. apparently they love a bit of it. (or perhaps it is simply that they dont know octopoidoise for 'no')

[Aggie]

Several said they paid for their college by stripping-- said that thousand-dollar nights, if the place was busy, was not out of the ordinary.   Several hours a night, for the weekend beats 40 hours waiting tables, according to some.  The pay is considerably better.

A friend of ours was making on average of $400 per night a few nights a week as a waitress in a strip club - skimpy outfits required but no actual nudity.  She was also holding down and making less (both per day and per week) at a 40-hour-per-week skilled day job.

As one friend put it, "I enjoyed immensely taking the money from stupid men, by simple stint of showing off my god-given body.  Why not?  I don't feel exploited, in fact, I felt that it went mostly the other way.  I used them to get my degree."

So, it's not quite as simple as all that-- at least some of the young women who go into strip clubs are using the system to bootstrap themselves into a better economic tier.

_{(my personal opinion on that shall remain more-or-less unsaid, except to say I've never actually been in a strip club, except for one time only, and that was as an unwilling guest at a bachelor party (no, not mine))}

Also read a report that 40% of women working for licensed escort agencies here are college students.  So the line is not drawn at stripping only.


-----------

Not sure how I would like to comment overall on the current state of feminism, but off-the-cuff I'd say that my generation of Canadian-born men has largely "got it" to some degree and DO show greater respect towards women that our fathers' generation, on average.  Not necessarily contributing to a cure, but they are less of a problem, perhaps (although I will echo Goat's frustration about women's apparent love for right bastards - the men that "get it" the most are the least likely to get the girl! - and I suspect there are a certain percentage of men who are right bastards simply for this reason).

I sometimes suspect that women of my generation here are under the impression that the battles of feminism have been fought and what's left is more a matter of individual achievement (or lack of) than systemic injustices.  Unless they are personally facing discrimination, there doesn't seem to be much outrage, so women-specific issues in generally vulnerable demographic groups seem to disappear under the rug.

[beagle]

So London needs to be copy the socialism level of New York rather than it's crime policy? Are you sure?

I dont understand this sentance. sorry.

It was a bit opaque...
What I meant was that crime in New York has been falling at the same time as crime in London has been rising, but New York is not noticeably more socialist than London.

so whatever evolutionary quirk made awful men attractive to women perpetuates awful behaviour by men.

Brilliant Goat! It's all their fault we're bastards; they bred it into us.

I think we should start running now.

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Brilliant Goat! It's all their fault we're bastards; they bred it into us.

I think we should start running now.

-waves newspaper threateningly at beagle-

Been reading the interesting discussion on this thread, but seein' as how I don't have an actual uterus, I'm saying very little, other than to say I do strongly support equality of workers-- regardless of their gender or gender preferences.  Reproduction choices should never be an issue in the workplace... even though it is mostimes.

This occurred to me well after my last post, but it's still pertinent.
Regardless of your lack of uteri, your opinion does matter. It's your female friends and family that will be affected by this craziness. A sane male voice will be appreciated in the workplace.

[goat starer]

It was a bit opaque...
What I meant was that crime in New York has been falling at the same time as crime in London has been rising, but New York is not noticeably more socialist than London.

I'm not saying you cant stop crime by improving policing - just that you cant stop the causes of crime.

Brilliant Goat! It's all their fault we're bastards; they bred it into us.

I think we should start running now.

er.... thats not what i meant... honest!

after all it is the devious narcissistic psychopaths who provide the seed.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

A sane male voice will be appreciated in the workplace.

Problem is-- I'm self-employed.   _I_ know that women are different, but ought to be treated with the same value as men--


---no, strike that.

Men are not treated as valuable human beings in most capitalistic (read: greed-based) societies.  Which makes it much worse for women, who are treated even less valuable...

Once (if ever) we move away from the culture of "free market=utopia" mentality, and into a workable mix of free market coupled with rational limits-- one that recognizes that human being ought to be treated as-- human beings and not flesh-robots, then I think that women and men equality issues will change for the better.

In such a society, it may even be possible to recognize that each gender has different strengths and weaknesses, and these can be combined to create situations that surpass the sum of the parts.

But, first we're gonna have to get rid of the idea that anyone has exclusive knowledge of what god(s) is(are) actually thinking....

....baby steps.

[The Meromorph]

At an informal gathering of men at my work (the smoking group - ranging in age from 20-somethng to 60-something) today, some were joshing one younger guy (married 15 years, apparently) about keeping his wife happy. I made my 'standard' remark that a wise man once told me the secret to pleasing women - FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. There was a rousing chorus of agreement, and a lengthy discussion on how basic that is. 

[Griffin NoName]

Or does it show how important Harman's stuff is ? 

I'd support her a lot of the way but have no belief in "positive discrimination" ; it's an oxymoron to me.  Worse, it would make the BNP claim that the native British are treated as second class citizens literally true, and I definitely want to see Labour beat them in the polls. Fourth is quite satisfactory  .

I dislike positive discrimination.

<aside>A lot of the discussions on this are ardently based on the insistance that it only applies, for example, where the candidates are equal on every other count. Perhaps this would work if everyone only existed as a paper defintion and not in person. In practice this can never be so. <end aside>

Disliking positive discrimination however does not make Harman's "stuff" less important. It simply raises the stakes for getting the "stuff" addressed. What means can be used to reach equality if positive discrimination is not the answer? etc.

I don't really see the stripper issue as a feminism issue, per se.

Nor do I. It's a different enquiry. (And I prefer stripping to lapdancing )

Research published a couple of weeks ago said that in lab tests the three qualities that women are most immediately attracted to are deviousness, narcissism and the impulsive behaviour of the psychopath. So honest, humble and restrained men aint going to get a look in... bad luck my toadfish buddies!

so whatever evolutionary quirk made awful men attractive to women perpetuates awful behaviour by men. To succeed (at least at getting laid) being thoroughly unpleasant seems to be the best strategy.

I've been trying to cure myself of this for years   

[

Been reading the interesting discussion on this thread, but seein' as how I don't have an actual uterus, I'm saying very little, other than to say I do strongly support equality of workers-- regardless of their gender or gender preferences.  Reproduction choices should never be an issue in the workplace... even though it is mostimes.

This occurred to me well after my last post, but it's still pertinent.
Regardless of your lack of uteri, your opinion does matter. It's your female friends and family that will be affected by this craziness. A sane male voice will be appreciated in the workplace.

Lacking a uterus is a good discriminatory stuff. Feminism IMO includes everyone regardless of gender.

Men are not treated as valuable human beings in most capitalistic (read: greed-based) societies.  Which makes it much worse for women, who are treated even less valuable...

Yes. Which is what Goat was getting at I think.  ?

the secret to pleasing women - FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS.

I don't want to be pleased. I want to be equal 

Goat, perhaps you would like to tell us more of your inner thoughts on the bouncy girl smilies?

I am quilty of adding them to the smilie set and using them quite deliberately   

FYI they entered the internet scene I believe at the time Jane Tomlinson was making Running for Breast Cancer into a Lifestyle choice. At least, that is how I came across them.

There's an interesting discussion to be had about what pictures mean and how they are interpreted 

[Sibling Chatty]

I encouraged a 'demonstration' of the power of sexual innuendo and both sexism and ageism today that may have some long-reaching consequences here in Tinytown.

At the local cafe--restaurant, coffee shop and town central, more or less, there was a discussion going on about sexism and the treatment of women HERE. And NOOOBODY was sexist, oh, noooooooooo, according to the "regulars"...at least the male ones.

So, the 19 year old grandson of the main day waitress came in. Aaron's a good kid, a bit too steeped in machismo for his own good. And I called him over... Now, this is a kid I've helped out with a number of things, including being his 'reader' for some classes. (Severe dyslexia.) And I plopped him down in a chair and started treating HIM the way some of the men present treat the young (but they didn't watch her grow up and her auntie doesn't work there) waitress.

People FLIPPED!! HOW could I DO that? I was old enough to be his MOTHER!! Yeah, and some of the guys grabbin' at this girl are MORE than old enough to be her GRANDFATHER, much less her father. But, but, but HE was MALE!! And exactly what difference does THAT make?? The younger they are, the...(at this point, I just raised an eyebrow, and whispered "juicier" into Aaron's Grandma's ear). She snickered 'energetic' and sat down laughing and wiping her eyes... The men were aghast. Unnerved. And, some, apoplectic.

Then, the waitresses started getting into it. That poor boy would have died from embarrassment, except that the worst of it DID come from his own Grandmother, so being pulled into her lap wasn't such a big deal. He was also kinda grossed out by his cousin (waitress) putting her tongue in his ear, and by his step-sister (trainee cook, former waitress) grabbing his ass.

Several guilty parties looked appropriately abashed. A number of women started in on their stories from when THEY were in the workforce (All Around Best Story, the female barber who kept a lot of ice and water in an ice bucket at her station, so she could dump it on 'uncontrolled flare-ups'.) Among 7 women in one place, at least one rape on job, three firings for 'non-compliance', one assault that was ended by someone else coming in and one assault ended by a stabbing with a letter opener.

And, sadly, the small-town folks agreed, that's just the way it's always been. Nobody could really justify it, or say WHY it had always been. Status quo?

==========

Beagle, you make my point for me. Doesn't matter WHERE the money comes from, there IS money to support that crap. You can't chart the color of THAT pound. Why try?

[goat starer]

Goat, perhaps you would like to tell us more of your inner thoughts on the bouncy girl smilies?

I am quilty of adding them to the smilie set and using them quite deliberately   

FYI they entered the internet scene I believe at the time Jane Tomlinson was making Running for Breast Cancer into a Lifestyle choice. At least, that is how I came across them.

There's an interesting discussion to be had about what pictures mean and how they are interpreted 

I would have put money on them having originally appeared somwhere during a football competition... probably Euro 2008 qualifiers. They have a definate 'loaded' ('mens' magazine in the UK with boobs and cars and drinking) feel to me. But I may be wrong.

My inner thoughts about them?  well i quite fancy the one in green (although I think she would look better in close proximity to some alien tentacles). but then i am sad desperate and lonely.

[Darlica]

I feel I'm a bit late joining this debate but there is a reason, this is one of these topics that can really rile me up. I needed some time to think and some time to sit by my computer reading, thinking and writing undisturbed. So please bear with me lagging and starting of with the first posts of the thread and my general POW.

Feminism is a very heated topic, there are a lot of misunderstandings about the idea of feminism flowering and the word has (again) became a red veil for some to wave and others to attack. And as Griffin said we are well below the low water marks of a backlash.

I have spent countless hours explaining that no, being a feminist does not mean that one hates men and wants to castrate them!   

I consider myself a feminist, why? I think women should have half of the political and economical power as well as get the same salery as a man for the same work and have the same rights. Not very controversial, right? This will put me in the camp of feminists light, because feminism isn't one movement there are more schools of it than I can count, but to to a harsh generalisation there are three fields: Anarcha-feminism, Traditional and feminism light) feminism and Difference feminism (uterus feminism). Light in this context doesn't mean that I take the issue lightly, on the contrary, I just believe that women above being women are individuals, not a homogenized group, which many feminist as well as non-feminists tend to claim and that all individuals no matter gender should have the same rights and opportunities.

I'm not going to comment the article point by point but rather build on Alpaca's post which was IMHO is wise beyond his years, most of the time I share his views so I'm going to comment them instead.

Workplace issues:
Agree with the article. The current state of things, with raising children viewed as "mushy," is absolutely ridiculous. Women are unfairly made the victims of it since they are biologically obliged to do much of the physical raising, but I think the issue transcends attitudes towards women, since a man would probably be a better father if he didn't see his child nights and weekends only. The productivity-obsessed business model needs to recognize that raising children is important, and both parents need to be given time to do it without negative consequences.

Underlining by me because this is very important, it's one of the pillar stones to create an equal society I think.

Celebrity magazines and such:
Don't think it's a feminism issue. The whole celebrity culture is screwed up on so many levels that attitudes towards women in general have very little to do with it at this point. The obsession isn't because women's bodies aren't their own - it's because celebrities' lives, all parts, are public domain. (And as far as I'm concerned, the celebrities who live off the machine don't want it to stop, so it won't.)

Yes, the celebrity culture is screwed up and to me that's a society issue, there by a equality issue. Both the people in the business and the average Joe and Jen is paying the prize. This culture is very good at cementing ugliest sides of the gender roles. Britney for example is portrayed as a crazy, promiscuous bitch, and people love to judge her, I never saw such hate and scorn launched against for example Robert Downy Jr.  who've had both drug abuse and mental breakdowns in his past. Women tend to be judged much harder, for their behaviour, their bodies and how they dress, women even us, who in no way or form are celebrities tend to be labelled either as Madonnas (and I don't mean the artist) or whores/ bitches, by people who don't know us because the media says it's OK. to judge a woman without hearing her story, like judging a book by the cover so to say.

Strip clubs, prawn, et al
Part of a larger issue. Can't speak for other generations, but my high school collectively has a really screwed-up attitude toward sexuality.*snipped for the sake of generalisation*

I would like to toss in sex in general here to. Sex is an urge, only the instincts to sleep and eat is stronger. To me it's fairly natural that young adults are fascinated by it and in my POW the problems begins when this becomes a taboo and people can't or aren't allowed to have a relaxed attitude towards it, when as Alpaca says "it can only be whispered about or boasted about on the most shallow level" this is a veritable greenhouse for stupidity, attitudes like misogyny, misinformation about what the other sex really wants and so on and so forth.

When it comes to Strip clubs, prawn even prostitution I'm divided. I can't say I'm a friend of any of the three but I do not like to point my finger at another person and tell them you don't know what you're doing, I know better. I don't feel that what happens between two (or more) consenting adults money or not involved is any of my darn business. Also what is considered prawn? And how do we know that the women did not wanted to do this? It might been a stupid decision to do it and she might regret it later but if was her decision who am I to say "you're wrong"?  If one is truly worried for the woman being taken advantage of  shouldn't she get support instead of being condemned?

I have met Anarcha-feminists who have told me that every act that involves penetration is actually rape and that I was a victim of the patriarchate because I happened to wear a push-up bra and shave my legs, I was just not aware of it because I was too indoctrinated! I don't want to be associated with that kind of thinking. My body might be considered a battleground and the private become a political statement but only when I choose so, like when it comes to questions about a woman's right to her body. I know what I'm doing better than anyone else, and that is an argument I use on other feminists as well as anti -feminists.

Hentai is a whole other bucket of worms literally, people get of on different things, I might not like it personally but it gives me no right to judge (I'm no a fan of erotic literature for women either mainly for the same reasons it does nothing for me but irritates me).

What I think is important though is that prawn and the sex industry get discussed. What do they do what powers moves behind the scenes, we need to talk about the ugly sides of it but without being judgemental, and let's talk about how they do it! Yes, tell  people about the tricks involved about how many takes a single intercourse can take, the lube mixed with painkillers so the guy won't come so fast and the woman won't feel chafed, tell the kids that prawn is fiction not a documentary, that it's someone's fantasy, not reality! Have a open discussion with young people how they think prawn affect the people consuming it. That would smother a lot of misunderstandings before they became to serious. Another important thing is that no one should be force-fed it, it doesn't belong in workplaces, in locker rooms or computers, one should be able to shut it out.

Rape and violence
*Also snipped in the name of generalisation* The "she deserved it" concept is so ridiculously unjust and chauvinistic that it almost defies comprehension.

The "she probably deserved it" or even worse "she probably wanted it" attitude that grows stronger in many many ways to day worries me to no end. Rape has nothing to do with sex it's a display of power. A no must be a no, no matter what the victim was wearing or if she want to stop mid act that she should know this is OK too. Parents need to teach their kids respect them self and other humans and the society need to wake up and smell the stench that comes from the courthouses and the lawyers offices.  This is a problem for the society as a whole not just a question for feminists.

Movies
Oh, really, Juno is an example of the backlash against feminism? Oh, wow, yeah, I see: A girl gets pregnant, has the opportunity to get an abortion but makes a decision not to, has complete control over her reproductive rights from beginning to end, makes her way through the ordeal successfully almost entirely unsupported, and still has room in her heart for forgivness. Prime example of misogyny, all that.

I haven't seen Juno but from what I have heard about it criticizing it like this just seems stupid. I mean it's a movie made for an older audience, one that hopefully can make up their own mind about things, personally I'm much more worried about the movies made for a younger more susceptible audience. My favourite albeit old examples are movies like Pocahontas (I may have spelled it wrong) and those where the young heroine first is shown of as nerdy, somewhat ugly and not popular at all but then by some reason she (either she gets to know that she is actually a princess or she gets conned to change for a boy)  gets a makeover and then becomes popular and gets the boy...

I'll guess I will be back with more in a while but this is pretty much where I stand.


Also Goat:

[goat starer]

Also Goat:

oh stop it... you know how males and goats can't control their lust... imagine how hard it is for male goats.



Darlica has made me realise how much I hate the term feminism. What is it supposed to mean? if it is about equal rights then it should be called something that encompasses everyone. Far too often it seems to be a shorthand for batting men around the head. Sensible rational people call their sensible rational views feminism as do rabid man haters.

I decided to read the wiki article on it as a subject and gave up when I realised that at heart it means nothing. The Ionian fallacy of giving a word so many meanings that it has none at all.

an attitude of "all people are equal but not all people are the same" seems good enough and explains where we should be aiming much better. can we just have a simple word for this that can be used in place of lots of 'isms' and causes. It is a common misconception in the world that equal rights mean that all people should be able to do the same things all the time if they want to. Well that is nonsense. There are inequalities of opportunity that are perfectly natural and people need to get over them, there are other inequalities that are entirely societal constructs and should be hunted down.

on a separate issue

Women should have equal rights - they should also have equal responsibilities you cant have one without the other.

here is one of them...

The responsibility to excersise judgement on issues relating to wonen as stringently as you would expect it to be excercised in other cases. an example?.... not everyone who claims to have been raped is telling the truth. believe me. Deciding you made a mistake the following morning and being raped are not interchangeable descriptions of the same thing. It is a very easy accusation to level when pissed off and a difficult one to retract. Many 'feminists' seem to want a presumption of guilt built into the law... well thats not how the law works and attitudes like that do no favours to people who are arguing that rape should be better investigated and made a priority for police forces. If you think there is an attitude of "she was asking for it" in society then there is certainly the counterpart "he's guilty as hell" attitude whenever anyone is accused of rape.

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

One quick note regarding a backlash, similar to what happens with environmentalism becomes radical: the most recalcitrant voices tend to hurt the movement they claim to spouse.

I have spent countless hours explaining that no, being a feminist does not mean that one hates men and wants to castrate them!
[snip]
I have met Anarcha-feminists who have told me that every act that involves penetration is actually rape and that I was a victim of the patriarchate because I happened to wear a push-up bra and shave my legs, I was just not aware of it because I was too indoctrinated!

I would say that sadly the term 'feminism' has been associated with the extreme feminism. As usual, moderate voices tend to get less attention and now it has become an excuse from the chauvinists to shun the whole thing.  Also there is a significant female chauvinism, which has grown precisely because of the extreme statements made by some self proclaimed feminists.

I'm going to show you a contentious statement and I would love to hear what you think about it but more importantly, what was the first thing that came to your mind while reading it:

"There is nothing wrong with staying at home raising kids"

I will withhold my opinion on said statement for now 

[Darlica]

oh stop it... you know how males and goats can't control their lust... imagine how hard it is for male goats.

Your barking up the wrong tree my friend.

*Snip*  It is a common misconception in the world that equal rights mean that all people should be able to do the same things all the time if they want to. Well that is nonsense. There are inequalities of opportunity that are perfectly natural and people need to get over them, there are other inequalities that are entirely societal constructs and should be hunted down.

And how do you define the line between a perfectly natural inequality and a socially constructed one?

For example I know women who mentally and physicality are more fit for a heavy risk laden job like being a fire-fighter and I know plenty of men who isn't, on the other hand I know men who are caring and nurturing personalities who does a great job doing traditional women dominated jobs like  working with children or old people (and who get ribbed about it by both men and women) and I know women who can't even care for a potted plant.       

Women should have equal rights - they should also have equal responsibilities you cant have one without the other.

Naturally, you are absolutely right. Feminism should not be about women taking advantage of men instead of the other way around. I know that some feminists wants to "get even" I think they are a sad lot who perhaps have read Dirty Weekend or the SCUM manifest one time to many.
Men are not beasts nor are women angels, we are humans, we sometime errors and other times we are fantastic sex/gender has nothing to do with that. 

The responsibility to excersise judgement on issues relating to wonen as stringently as you would expect it to be excercised in other cases. an example?.... not everyone who claims to have been raped is telling the truth. believe me. Deciding you made a mistake the following morning and being raped are not interchangeable descriptions of the same thing. It is a very easy accusation to level when pissed off and a difficult one to retract. Many 'feminists' seem to want a presumption of guilt built into the law... well thats not how the law works and attitudes like that do no favours to people who are arguing that rape should be better investigated and made a priority for police forces. If you think there is an attitude of "she was asking for it" in society then there is certainly the counterpart "he's guilty as hell" attitude whenever anyone is accused of rape.

No women are also humans and there are bad apples among us too, I would say the percentage of egocentric yellow-bellied morons are about the same among men and women the difference is that the male kind are often louder and more violent but there are exceptions.

I have met a man who have been accused of sexual abuse/rape of a women because she wanted to save her own ass from getting kicked out by the boyfriend when he found out what she had been up too... I have also met a young woman who got drugged and raped but despite her giving the police name and the address of at least one of the perpetrators never even got to court with it. 

One of the things I react the most against is the way many rape victims get treated in court, their sexual moral and history gets scrutinized in a very demeaning way by the lawyers of the accused man who also of cause know how to defend his client against every attempt to look into his past stating that,it's not adequate information for the case. The fact that defence lawyers are often better paid and more experienced than the lawyers that is supposed to support the plaintiff in this kind of trials is no feministic conspiracy it's the sad truth (at least here in Sweden the prosecutor is not supposed to support the plaintiff just present the facts that the police have given him or her).

I'm going to show you a contentious statement and I would love to hear what you think about it but more importantly, what was the first thing that came to your mind while reading it:

"There is nothing wrong with staying at home raising kids"

I will withhold my opinion on said statement for now 

If this is what the woman or man wants, she or he should be able to do so without having to suffer any form of discrimination. Few things are more important than taking care of the next generation but if she or he doesn't wants to stay at home raising the kids, society should not force anyone, no matter sex to do so. Personally I think I would have a hard time putting a child below the age of three in daycare but that's just my personal POW based on my feelings, how other parents choose to do is not my business, the only thing I care about it that they should have the possibility to do what they think is best for their child.

That is perhaps not the traditional feminist POW and could very well render me being called a lot of degrading things by others who call them self feminists, still I stand for it and I will continue to call myself a feminist.