Feminism

[Griffin NoName]

Sadly I have come to the conclusion that we actually need this topic.

I am not even according it the tag "Backlash" as I believe we are way beyond a mere backlash now (I disagree with the last two paragraphs of the article cited below).

I also consider it is entirely political because only Parliament (or whatever) has the enough real power (although they don't seem able to apply it) to actually make legislation work (when it exists) (and well, given we don't have a Legal Board here), and to prod society into non-discriminatory mindsets.

<article

I'm not posting my own thoughts right here and now because to do that would most effectively be served by simply copying the whole article in here. Let the article stand for me.

The only serious omission in my view is there's no mention of the dire straits of female pensioners which is an area which ought to have been addressed as an obvious next step in the '90s following on naturally from forward steps in the 70s and 80s. That it wasn't and is now at crisis just adds fuel to the whole feminist issue. But I am just as concerned about all the other aspects that the article does cover.

[beagle]

Some good points I'd definitely agree with, but also some scattergun ones in my opinion.

It's also being played out in the gossip magazines. In the past few years we have seen Jennifer Lopez paid a reported $6m (£3m) for exclusive pictures of her with her twin babies; Angelina Jolie is expected to clear $10m if she agrees to pose with the twins she will give birth to later this year.

In the whole history of the world has a (straight) man ever bought one of these celebrity magazines? The film list looked like ones men are dragged to under sufferance, too.

Refuge, Women's Aid and Eaves Housing for Women - all of which support female victims of violence, have a combined income considerably lower than that of The Donkey Sanctuary, a charity that supports ageing donkeys.

I agree that's silly, but I don't think the government gives a penny to the donkey sanctuary. All it proves is that the British public (including women) prefer furry animal charities to people ones; Something we've always known.  As with the magazines and films, women could change this with their own consumer/donation habits.


As for street violence, some Tories would say it's political correctness that has made the streets unsafe for women and far unsafer for men. By swamping the police with human rights paperwork and suppressing stop and search of the most likely suspects.

Is it coincidence this article has appeared now, or is it Harriet Harman's friends rallying round?

To explain for our foreign readers...
When Tory Boris Johnson was elected mayor of London he resigned his position as a M.P. for Henley, causing a by-election.  On election day Labour's Harriet Harman announced new proposals for positive discrimination saying that female and ethnic minority candidates would be favoured over white males with equal qualifications.
Labour came fifth in the by-election, even managing to come behind the BNP, which is rather scary.  Quite a few Labour MPs (up to minister level) were furious that after the "putting up taxes for the poorest" blunder and the "putting up road tax for old cars" blunder Labour had again managed to spectacularly alienate the white male working class vote. 

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

An interesting article, to be sure.

Britney Spears et al. chose to pose--no one made them.
With the strip clubs? Women don't have to work there. I suppose it doesn't speak all that well about a society, but it's also the woman's choice.

However, the rest of it makes me antsy. That those men can even get away with saying that is revolting--they needs to be booed off the stage. I also hope that women are too used to having, you know, freedom that we fight back tooth and nail.

[Griffin NoName]

It's also being played out in the gossip magazines. In the past few years we have seen Jennifer Lopez paid a reported $6m (£3m) for exclusive pictures of her with her twin babies; Angelina Jolie is expected to clear $10m if she agrees to pose with the twins she will give birth to later this year.

In the whole history of the world has a (straight) man ever bought one of these celebrity magazines? The film list looked like ones men are dragged to under sufferance, too.

Britney Spears et al. chose to pose--no one made them.
With the strip clubs? Women don't have to work there. I suppose it doesn't speak all that well about a society, but it's also the woman's choice.

With respect, that is exactly the sort of reason why I made the point about backlash. IMHO we are now back to RE-raising-women's-consciousness all over again.............. never mind men's.

This stuff is incidious and subliminal.

Refuge, Women's Aid and Eaves Housing for Women - all of which support female victims of violence, have a combined income considerably lower than that of The Donkey Sanctuary, a charity that supports ageing donkeys.

I agree that's silly, but I don't think the government gives a penny to the donkey sanctuary. All it proves is that the British public (including women) prefer furry animal charities to people ones; Something we've always known.
As with the magazines and films, women could change this with their own consumer/donation habits.

ditto.... re-raising-women's-consciousness all over again.............. PLUS an extensive government campaign that half the human race is at least as important as DONKEYS. (oh and deserve to be kindly put out of their misery if desired just like sick old animals ).
 

As for street violence, some Tories would say it's political correctness that has made the streets unsafe for women and far unsafer for men. By swamping the police with human rights paperwork and suppressing stop and search of the most likely suspects.

Yes, I think this is slightly tangential. However, I do wonder whether there's a link with the incidence of rape rising - and the drop in successful prosecutions for rape is utterly shocking.

I also don't want to be walking past hundreds of lap-dancing clubs, people throwing up in city centres all night, endless gambling arcades making stupid money jingling noises, etc etc..... but then I am a grumpy old Hell's Granny.

Is it coincidence this article has appeared now, or is it Harriet Harman's friends rallying round?

Or does it show how important Harman's stuff is ? 

......alienate the white male working class vote. 

Oh dear, oh dear, oh deary deary me.........now when did that one first rear it's head?

    --->       

Whatever we do, we mustn't alienate Big Finance Tax Exiles..........  who are mostly men I believe....


As an ardent and long-time member and donor of The Fawcett Society   (and ex-subscriber to the long lamented defunct Spare Rib) I think it's actually irrelevant whether Harman's friends or Coincidence are involved. Fawcett battles away constantly at very serious injustices making small headway. I wonder how different it would be if they were not so dependent on small time donors like me? Or if everyone was forced to read their magazines and news features once a week? **

However, the rest of it makes me antsy. That those men can even get away with saying that is revolting--they needs to be booed off the stage. I also hope that women are too used to having, you know, freedom that we fight back tooth and nail.**

Sugar is a clever man to be sure.

**  I have very wide circle of friends which includes women with strong feminist views - but the number who are politically active in promoting feminism is nil, and the number who I know belong to the Fawcett Society is 3 including me. British women need a boot up their backsides 

[Sibling Chatty]

Some good points I'd definitely agree with, but also some scattergun ones in my opinion.

It's also being played out in the gossip magazines. In the past few years we have seen Jennifer Lopez paid a reported $6m (£3m) for exclusive pictures of her with her twin babies; Angelina Jolie is expected to clear $10m if she agrees to pose with the twins she will give birth to later this year.

In the whole history of the world has a (straight) man ever bought one of these celebrity magazines? The film list looked like ones men are dragged to under sufferance, too.

DD interjects: Not in your age group, Beagle, Don't think that there's not a market in the younger age groups, and since when did (straight) money spend differently from (one supposes...crooked? Bent?) money?

Refuge, Women's Aid and Eaves Housing for Women - all of which support female victims of violence, have a combined income considerably lower than that of The Donkey Sanctuary, a charity that supports ageing donkeys.

I agree that's silly, but I don't think the government gives a penny to the donkey sanctuary. All it proves is that the British public (including women) prefer furry animal charities to people ones; Something we've always known.  As with the magazines and films, women could change this with their own consumer/donation habits.


As for street violence, some Tories would say it's political correctness that has made the streets unsafe for women and far unsafer for men. By swamping the police with human rights paperwork and suppressing stop and search of the most likely suspects.

Wouldn't have a FREAKIN' thing to do with the fact that violence of every type goes up everywhere as population density goes up, would it???

Is it coincidence this article has appeared now, or is it Harriet Harman's friends rallying round?

To explain for our foreign readers...
When Tory Boris Johnson was elected mayor of London he resigned his position as a M.P. for Henley, causing a by-election.  On election day Labour's Harriet Harman announced new proposals for positive discrimination saying that female and ethnic minority candidates would be favoured over white males with equal qualifications.
Labour came fifth in the by-election, even managing to come behind the BNP, which is rather scary.  Quite a few Labour MPs (up to minister level) were furious that after the "putting up taxes for the poorest" blunder and the "putting up road tax for old cars" blunder Labour had again managed to spectacularly alienate the white male working class vote. 

Everything's cyclical, and until the daughters and grand daughters of some of those old asses that just don't hire women take over the family fortune (sorry, male sperm don't always win out, nor do they succeed as well) there will be regressive employers. That's where SOME advances have been made. Women-owned businesses can be a bit more sensitive to the issues.

The violence thing reaches pretty close to "You women bring it on yourselves." In other words, put on your burqua, and don't leave the house without my permission...which might be just fine with way too many of the 'gentlemen' quoted in that article.

[Alpaca]

I'm not touching the political stuff, since I know nothing about it.

Workplace issues:
Agree with the article. The current state of things, with raising children viewed as "mushy," is absolutely ridiculous. Women are unfairly made the victims of it since they are biologically obliged to do much of the physical raising, but I think the issue transcends attitudes towards women, since a man would probably be a better father if he didn't see his child nights and weekends only. The productivity-obsessed business model needs to recognize that raising children is important, and both parents need to be given time to do it without negative consequences.

Celebrity magazines and such:
Don't think it's a feminism issue. The whole celebrity culture is screwed up on so many levels that attitudes towards women in general have very little to do with it at this point. The obsession isn't because women's bodies aren't their own - it's because celebrities' lives, all parts, are public domain. (And as far as I'm concerned, the celebrities who live off the machine don't want it to stop, so it won't.)

Strip clubs, prawn, et al
Part of a larger issue. Can't speak for other generations, but my high school collectively has a really screwed-up attitude toward sexuality. The best way I can describe it is as some sort of morbid fascination, as if the fact that people have sex is a secret that everyone's privy to, but which can only be whispered about or boasted about on the most shallow level, because any sort of reasonable attitude (or even worse, any sort of admission of a connection between sexuality and genuine feelings of love) would shatter the awkward social buzzing that so many people thrive on. (Four years of high school bitterness vented right there.)

So, as long as such people exist and haven't matured but have turned eighteen (or gotten a fake ID or an older friend or, um, internet access), the market will exist, and better to have it acknowledged and regulated than clumsily hushed up. The issue is, again, not with women's bodies being public property, but with an unhealthy imbalance in people's minds. A kid came to Tampa Prep a while back who was expelled from his old school for being caught looking at anime porn (oh, the laughs that ensued from that story) multiple times. Better that than...

Rape and violence
...the kid who got expelled - no wait, we don't do that at Prep, I meant "politely asked to leave" - because at a party at the beginning of the year he allegedly raped someone. Agree with the article here. The "she deserved it" concept is so ridiculously unjust and chauvinistic that it almost defies comprehension.

Movies
Oh, really, Juno is an example of the backlash against feminism? Oh, wow, yeah, I see: A girl gets pregnant, has the opportunity to get an abortion but makes a decision not to, has complete control over her reproductive rights from beginning to end, makes her way through the ordeal successfully almost entirely unsupported, and still has room in her heart for forgivness. Prime example of misogyny, all that.

In all seriousness, attacks like that are where the feminist movement needs to be careful, I think. My best friend's girlfriend is an ardent feminist, so I've heard rather a lot of the latest from the movement, and I think that to gain support it needs to stay reasonable. Yes, there's plenty to be done, and there's unacceptable discrimination and injustice against women in the world today. But otherwise reasonable people will be unwilling to support it if it spends time attacking Juno and the media portrayal of Amy Winehouse.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

The productivity-obsessed business model needs to recognize that raising children is important, and both parents need to be given time to do it without negative consequences.

That model needs to be done away with completely:  people (men AND women) are NOT COMMODITIES.

*bleah*

Been reading the interesting discussion on this thread, but seein' as how I don't have an actual uterus, I'm saying very little, other than to say I do strongly support equality of workers-- regardless of their gender or gender preferences.  Reproduction choices should never be an issue in the workplace... even though it is mostimes.

[pieces o nine]

The article was depressing, but (aside from names and dates) I saw little that was news to me. About 10 (ten!) years ago a young male co-worker took a vacation to a country known to offer its female citizens as part of the tourism package. When he returned, he went on and on and on and on and on about his "girldfriend' there, until I quietly but coldly interrupted another story to point out that she wasn't 'girlfriend' but his paid employee for the duration of his stay.

That got me labeled all kinds of interesting names by both male and female coworkers. The next comment left me speechless: a recent college graduate (and the daughter of prominent people in her hometown) simpered, "It's a woman's choice if she wants to do that or not. You don't have any right to interfere with her choices." She added -- quite unnecessarily but to great male approval -- that she wasn't a *feminist* or anything; she just supported a 'woman's' right to 'choose' her 'career'.

When I regained the ability to speak, I asked what she had learned about the economies and social mores of those types of cultures, and if she understood that a 'choice' -- if any, in fact, existed -- lay between a short list of bad options with no future. She indicated that she did not understand the question. None of the males seemed able to process that either. So I turned to the young man who had started the whole thing and asked about his young son, and how much money he'd ask in exchange for letting a stranger take his son for a 'boyfriend' in about 5 years. He was completely horrified. I asked, "But if he chooses to do that for a career, who are you to deny his freedom?" He started to argue that if he sold his (minor) son, it wouldn't exactly be his son's choice before the 10-watt lightbulb went on in his mind.

It didn't stop the stories, nor did it increase social awareness in the rest of the staff, but he told his 'girlfriend' stories away from my desk after that.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
As to the ways male employers get around hiring 20-something women who have not yet started families (and who may not want children), 30-something women working to support their families (and who may not want to enlarge them), 40-something women whose children are leaving the nest, 50-something women who are child-free ... I have personally observed decisions that blew my mind. Sadly, they do not seem to be exceptions to the norm.

[beagle]

DD interjects: Not in your age group, Beagle, Don't think that there's not a market in the younger age groups, and since when did (straight) money spend differently from (one supposes...crooked? Bent?) money?

Your choice of antonyms, definitely not mine. Can't speak for the States but there are quite a few gay millionaires here who made their money by recognising that the "Pink Pound (Sterling)"   (not my choice of colour description  ) operates differently to the blue (?) one.  Don't believe it's considered discriminatory to recognize that.  And I do know a few younger people, not all playing for the home team, or indeed any fixed team.

Wouldn't have a FREAKIN' thing to do with the fact that violence of every type goes up everywhere as population density goes up, would it???

Possibly a factor IMHO. But only if the population of New York has plummeted compared to London does their reversal of roles as murder capitals bear it out.
Also the gun and knife crime epidemic has spread to smaller market towns.

...
Or does it show how important Harman's stuff is ? 

I'd support her a lot of the way but have no belief in "positive discrimination" ; it's an oxymoron to me.  Worse, it would make the BNP claim that the native British are treated as second class citizens literally true, and I definitely want to see Labour beat them in the polls. Fourth is quite satisfactory  .

[Sibling Zono (anon1mat0)]

I agree with pregnancy, and workplace issues wholeheartedly, in fact I was stunned when I realized that  there are proportionally more white collar female workers in Colombia than in the US (from what I can tell) and that while women tent to be paid less in Colombia too the difference seemed greater in the US.

On the stripper thing I see it a bit differently. The question is why would a woman choose such a job? I see two underlying factors:
1.  Education is failing in general (big news here! ): Sex related jobs don't require any training therefore a woman who didn't went to school can apply easily.

2. The economic trade off of those activities is substantially higher than other unskilled jobs and in some cases even skilled jobs. These jobs have shorter hours and higher pay per hour than many others out there so much it becomes a tempting proposition, considering that a non skilled job (like waiting tables to mention one) may pay 20K a year or less doing long hours, while stripping may pay 2 to 5 times more for shorter hours and less physical activity.

Also is worth commenting that the ability to choose a particular job is directly related to the job market itself: if you have a high unemployment and small economy a woman may be economically forced* into the sex trade while in more prosperous economies it is more a choice between image and money.

*meaning that no other jobs are available or the ones available pay so badly it is barely a choice.

[goat starer]

The wisest comment here is from Alpaca. As long as people are seen as commodities (politicians and buisness alike have no qualms at all about using the terms 'human capital' or 'our people are our most valuable asset' and I shudder inside) then some 'commodities' will be used and abused. The simple fact is that capitalism does not value people except as a means of production and a bunch of customers. The objectification of women for commercial purposes (which leads to a much wider set of social attitudes to women) is simply a more extreme version of the objectification of ALL people! Yet there are few femenists flocking to start the socialist revolution these days.

lamentably we have all been brainwashed into believeing that we are capital not society.

And no beagle the problem is not the lack of police on the streets because they are all off doing paperwork... it is the greed engendered in society by the glorification of wealth and success and the belief that we serve money rather than the other way round.

PS. I think those smileys with the women with bouncing chests are symtomatic of this whole problem.

[Bob in a quantum-state-of-faith]

Re: the stripper job choice.

Sometimes, it is a choice by the woman in question.  I've actually known former strippers, who told me they used the system for all it was worth, while they were younger.

Several said they paid for their college by stripping-- said that thousand-dollar nights, if the place was busy, was not out of the ordinary.   Several hours a night, for the weekend beats 40 hours waiting tables, according to some.  The pay is considerably better.

As one friend put it, "I enjoyed immensely taking the money from stupid men, by simple stint of showing off my god-given body.  Why not?  I don't feel exploited, in fact, I felt that it went mostly the other way.  I used them to get my degree."

So, it's not quite as simple as all that-- at least some of the young women who go into strip clubs are using the system to bootstrap themselves into a better economic tier.

_{(my personal opinion on that shall remain more-or-less unsaid, except to say I've never actually been in a strip club, except for one time only, and that was as an unwilling guest at a bachelor party (no, not mine))}

[Opsa]

I loved Alpaca's post, too. The part about young adult attitudes toward sex was so accurate and true. Reading it really brought home what it was like even back in the late seventies when I was a teenaged person. That was supposed to be a sexually enlightened time, too- but we were just as clumsy and embarrassed (and wrong!) about sex as you are, today. And even though it was okay for boys to want sex, we girls felt we had two choices: virgin or whore- and all that well-meaning drek about sex being "a loving expression between two people" was meaningless to us because we as adolescents were so morbidly aware of what everyone else (in our peer group) thought of us.

Probably the saddest thing is that men are always assumed to be gung-ho about leaping into the sack (and not all of them are, all the time, in spite of it) and women are supposed to be the ones who are left with being discriminate or not.  It is not equal. It will never be equal. This messes with people's heads.

Decent men know that it isn't nice to get grabby with women no matter how she's dressed, unless she expressly gives permission. Smart women know that some men (usually the most obnoxious) do not develop beyond a certain point and they need to dress accordingly. Some smart women decide they want to be "liberated" and dress how they please. That lasts as long as they can stand walking by the hooting dorks. Dim fellahs (I have an ex-boss in mind) can't understand why some women don't ever call back when all they did was send naked photo of themselves with a hard-on. It was a joke! Didn't they get it? (This guy still tries to call after 25 years! He tried again just the other day. I still don't have a thing to say to him!)

In the end, all we can do is try to be as fair as possible. Sure, there are strip clubs, but thank heavens they are seen as distasteful places that propagate ogling. Is there anything wrong with the human body? No. It's the attude that's wrong. A woman's human body is her gift to whomever she wants to share it with and if she wants to share it with bunches of people, okay. But men cannot assume that just because she does, then other women should. It's only the dense people that mess this up for the rest of us, and unfortunately, they are the loud ones.

[beagle]

And no beagle the problem is not the lack of police on the streets because they are all off doing paperwork... it is the greed engendered in society by the glorification of wealth and success and the belief that we serve money rather than the other way round.

So London needs to be copy the socialism level of New York rather than it's crime policy? Are you sure?

[Scriblerus the Philosophe]

Re: the stripper job choice.

Sometimes, it is a choice by the woman in question.  I've actually known former strippers, who told me they used the system for all it was worth, while they were younger.

There's a fabulous blog written by a woman that is currently a stripper, called Grace Undressed. She's chosen to be a stripper. She has a degree, from what I gathered when I sifted through the archives, but chooses stripping because it pays better than what she's got a degree in.

As one friend put it, "I enjoyed immensely taking the money from stupid men, by simple stint of showing off my god-given body.  Why not?  I don't feel exploited, in fact, I felt that it went mostly the other way.  I used them to get my degree."

That's also part of her choice, sort of.

Several said they paid for their college by stripping-- said that thousand-dollar nights, if the place was busy, was not out of the ordinary.   Several hours a night, for the weekend beats 40 hours waiting tables, according to some.  The pay is considerably better.

So, it's not quite as simple as all that-- at least some of the young women who go into strip clubs are using the system to bootstrap themselves into a better economic tier.

There was a girl a few years ago at the CalState university in my city that was kicked off the track team because that was how she paid for school. I don't remember how the coach justified that, but that's what happened.

I don't really see the stripper issue as a feminism issue, per se. I see it as  a societal issue that breaks gender barriers--does seeing the Chippen Dales count as misandry?
More of a human commodity issue, as Goat put it.

'Paca: Anime prawn, hm? Some of that is...disturbing. Tentacles do NOT belong there!